Do Catholics have more conservative / boring sex lives?

For Fapstronauts of the Catholic Christian Faith

  1. PaulD2000

    PaulD2000 Fapstronaut

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    I know I do and sometimes I wonder if it's to do with my Catholic upbringing!
     
  2. Tryin' Hard

    Tryin' Hard Fapstronaut

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    Define "boring." I'm celibate sooooooo...

    I've done my own research and we do have many "limitations" on sex - no orgasm outside of it's intended place, being marriage and within the vagina. Foreplay is allowed and even encouraged between a man and a wife but orgasm must still take place in and only in it's rightful place.

    I would hasten to add that none of these "restrictions" are restrictions at all - rather, they are rules we should have written in our hearts so that our sex lives are better, healthy, and holy. For many, a holy sex life is one where your only sexual partner is your spouse and meant to create life as God intended. For me, that means celibacy and *attempting* to stay pure for the heavenly kingdom.
     
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  3. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    Yes, practicing Catholics have more conservative sex lives. If by conservative you mean not having anonymous sex, sodomy, or a host of other perversions. What the Catholic Church teaches about proper sex was what Western Civilization thought until the last hundred years. We can see from the fruits of modern hedonism that most people are actually very unhappy. As it turns out studies find that married practicing Catholics are very happy in their marriage and their sex life.

    We know people who don’t follow the Catholic Church’s teaching are not happy. All of us here struggling with PMO aren’t happy about what we do. All the men and women who get a STD aren’t happy about that. All the men and women who have children out of wedlock aren’t happy. All the children born out of wedlock or abandoned through divorce aren’t happy. All the children killed through abortion aren’t happy.

    It is an obvious lie that modern free sex will make us happy.
     
  4. PaulD2000

    PaulD2000 Fapstronaut

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    Thanks for your input LavaMe. Some strong and controversial statements there. I agree with most of this but not as strongly in certain aspects.
    When you mentioned about the study on marriage happiness it reminded me of were I grew up. It was a 100% catholic village and surrounding country area. I heard a lot of stories about the behavior of some couples relating to orgies, wife swooping, cheating etc. Okay, I didn't witness it first hand but the information came from sources that I trust. The thing is these same reportedly involved people would be sitting proud as punch each Sunday as far up the chapel as possible to be seen. These are the people I'd imagine would be ticking the 100% happy in marriage box on that survey.
    Where I live now is more of a mixed community but still strongly Catholic... correction, majority Catholic. I have four kids in the Catholic primary school and I'd estimate less than 10% of their class mates go to mass each or any Sunday. I do see a massive increase in split families and step siblings now. I'm not saying this is all down to these folks not going to mass on a Sunday but I'd imagine if they were all practicing Catholics there would be less of it.

    The reason I posted the question is because I have an unhappy sex life. I know that the sex part is not the measure of the relationship but I do think it plays a part. I want to have sex that is enjoyable and adventurous and not just the straight forward repetitive (not saying it happens very often) motions.

    Also the Catholic men that play away from home to fufil their needs might also tick that 100% happy box.

    I'm not trying to arge but just thinking out loud as I type. Thanks again for your thoughts!
     
  5. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    Stories are gossip. Maybe this was true and maybe it wasn’t. Almost everyone is a hypocrite to some extent.

    People with any sort of conscience won’t feel good about cheating. Living a lie takes its toll.

    I do know several couples who I am as confident as I can be are faithful. They seem to be the happiest people I know.
     
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  6. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    I look at it this way: Society is more tolerant than ever of sexual behavior that the Church teaches to be sinful, from fornication to contraception to deviant activities. Yet, people whose sexual behavior is not the least bit restricted by their religious beliefs seem to find it more and more difficult to have healthy, lasting marriages. Maybe there is a connection.

    I also think porn warps our view of what sex is supposed to be and makes us feel like we are missing out on things that actually won't bring us the happiness we seek.
     
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  7. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    I think there is a litle of confution here.
    The only rule in Catholic Church about sex is only allow man-woman inside marriage and no cheating, nathing more. And no incest.

    If you are doing sex with someone that it is not your wife you are not cheating because she is not your wife but that is call fornication and forbid, so sex only inside marriage.
    Inside marriage you can do whatever you want, have fun even bdsm sex if you want but only inside marriage.
    sodomy is gay sex and not [male - woman] anal sex... so anal with male-woman is allow.
    Now we must understand that the body have pleasure but the spirituality have pleasure to... feel good inside can be bether then sex. Love first [spirituality], sex is secundary it is like one bonus that can come with marriage. If we put sex first is wrong, first we put love then we put sex.
    Inside of marriage you can do everything you want since you dont make things that is bad, respect, sane and consensual.
    Now chastity can have benefits and some married persons sometimes they can chose chastity inside marriage that it is not bad. Some can chose small times... and some of they can chose a lifetime or the only have sex to have 1 kid.
    There is one saint couple i dont remember the name that they chose to live in chastity, another history i listen was one priest that say is parents live together like brothers in diferent rooms... they are persons that chose to live chastity inside marriage but you dont need to do that... if you want you can do everything you want since the couple fell good doing it... no cheating and this stuff nathing more.
    And yes chastity can have benefits it is one choice.
     
  8. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    I must gently correct you. Sodomy is most often homosexual acts, but it also is used to refer to anal or oral sex between any two people. In fact in my state we have the crime of ‘crime against nature’. This refers to these unnatural sex acts. This is in line with Catholic teaching and the idea of natural law.

    The teaching of the Church is that we should not engage in oral or anal sex even with our spouses.
     
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  9. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    LavaMe
    And... where in the bible say that say sodomy is male\female anal sex and is forbid?!

    Biblical definition of Sodomy is any copulation with persons of the same sex.
    Sex through the anus between a man and woman, however, in marriage, is not clearly prohibited in Scripture.
    So if you want to do anal with your partner [male-female] inside marriage it dont say it is bad or forbid: Some couples chose to do it others dont, nathing more. Have fun... :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
  10. LavaMe

    LavaMe Fapstronaut

    @White_umbrella This is a Catholic forum. So, we don’t need an explicit scripture verse for everything. When sexual perversion is mentioned in the Sacred Scripture it is inclusive of unnatural sex acts.
     
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  11. Tryin' Hard

    Tryin' Hard Fapstronaut

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    This is completely accurate. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the church asks that sex be used in the way God intended and only the way God intended, that is: in a male-female, husband-wife, penis-vagina situation and only in that situation. See the CCC for the letter of the law and more specifically JPII's Theology of The Body for evidence, remembering that we need tradition and the Church Magisterium's official and doctrinally perfect* interpretation of Holy Scripture as much as if not more than we need the ability to interpret scripture on our own.

    edit: Thanks to @dlansky for his excellent post with evidence from the CCC and Humanae Vitae.

    *note that by doctrinally perfect I mean that when the church needs to make an authoritative statement of what the Church believes that we know from scripture that the Holy Spirit will preserve the Church from error. I'm not referring to personal opinions of important church figures.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2019
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  12. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    White_umbrella, You really need to read your Catechism (for starters) before making statements about what the Church teaches. Any genital sexual activity that is not ordered toward procreation is immoral.

    Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2366

    "Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is 'on the side of life,' teaches that 'it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.' 'This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.'"

    Humanae Vitae (written by St. Pope Paul VI), n. 11:
    "The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life."
     
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  13. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    Sorry about i only answer now.
    LavaMe
    You say "we don’t need an explicit scripture verse for everything." but that just what we are talking about...
    sodomy comes from the bible, the history from sodom.
    There is nathing in the bible that say anal sex is forbid with male-woman. The sexual perversion you talking about Sacred Scripture is about gay sex not about anal male-woman sex.

    Guys...
    Pope benedict xvi allow condoms.
    Lets keep it real ok?! We are in the real life...
    Look at the persons here in the forum they even have troubles to stop only to watch sex in internet and masturbation now imagine one man and female in the same bed alone at night... and tell they to dont have sex?! and if they have will have sex is only to have babys?! Do you know what means one family have 10-15 babys or maby more in the current days?! What about can have a house to all of they?! give they food?! this stuff... this is not only make babys...
    Do you real think in old times the persons and saints that married have condoms in that time?! So how they control?! Do you real think they do only vagina sex without condoms and they only have maby 2 or 3 babys?! This is real life keep it real...
    The only forbid is must be married catholic male-female mutual respect and love.
    Sex is ok inside marriage, anal and is not forbid but is recommended chastity inside marriage because it have benefits but you not strict to do it...
    Some Saints do chastity inside marriage, other Saints dont do it like Saint Rita one of my favorit Saints and she is very powerfull one of the most strong Saints in the Church.

    Is not forbid but is recommended chastity even inside marriage because have benefits. Understand?!
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
  14. Tryin' Hard

    Tryin' Hard Fapstronaut

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    ....but this isn't accurate.

    First off, I'd like a citation on your claim that Benedict the 16th allowed condoms. The church has never allowed condoms and will not start anytime soon.

    Why doesn't the church want condoms? For the same reason that the church doesn't want anal sex... it's not natural and defeats the true purpose of sex - PROCREATION. In other words, the church thinks it's realistic to demand that every time you have sex you are to be prepared for a child.

    It's not unrealistic to have 10-15 children. I know plenty of good, hard-working catholic families whom God willed to have that many kids and HE PROVIDED FOR THEM. God's will = God's help. If you honestly can't provide for a baby, put him/her up for adoption. It's a realistic solution. Or don't have sex. It's a realistic solution. And I say this as a man who has struggled for 7 years with pornography and masturbation. It's a realistic solution, but it's a difficult one. And it's realistic because it's God's will. God's will = God's help.

    As I said earlier, "the church asks that sex be used in the way God intended and only the way God intended, that is: in a male-female, husband-wife, penis-vagina situation and only in that situation." @dlansky gives excellent evidence. (@dlansky cheers man)

    Thirdly, you misunderstand what chastity inside marriage means. True chastity is keeping sex where it belongs, I repeat, in a male-female, husband-wife, penis-vagina situation and only in that situation. My parents lived CHASTE lives - lives of sexual activity where God intended it, and it's why I exist today and it's a good thing. St. Rita lived an ABSTINENT life, which is also an option but not required as you pointed out. Abstinence is the complete forgoing of all sexual behavior as penance. It's the sacrifice of a good thing - chaste sexual behavior - for penance. Abstinence is not required, chastity is.
     
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  15. dlansky

    dlansky Fapstronaut

    Pope Benedict XVI most certainly did not allow condoms. That's an outrageous lie. What the lie most likely stems from was an interview in which Pope Benedict was applying the principle of graduality, which means that we can recognize a given change in behavior as progress, even if the individual is still committing possibly even grave sins. An example he gave was that of a male prostitute with HIV who begins to use condoms to avoid spreading his disease, observing that this could be a step toward taking personal responsibility.

    Here is the statement in context:

    "There may be a basis in the case of some individuals, as perhaps when a male prostitute uses a condom, where this can be a first step in the direction of a moralization, a first assumption of responsibility, on the way toward recovering an awareness that not everything is allowed and that one cannot do whatever one wants. But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection. That can really lie only in a humanization of sexuality." (Source: https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/analysis-what-the-pope-really-said-about-condoms)

    Media publications such as The Guardian made the absurd inference that the pope was advocating the use of condoms to stop the spread of HIV infection. However, he clearly said the exact opposite: "But it is not really the way to deal with the evil of HIV infection." To say that Pope Benedict was "allowing condoms" is akin to saying he allowed for male prostitution as long as condoms are used -- it's a lie that could only be justified by a mind desiring to distort the teachings of the Church.

    WhiteUmbrella, since you obviously didn't read my previous reply or perhaps you chose to ignore it, I again site where the Church forbids sexual acts that are not ordered toward the procreation of human life:

    Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2366

    "Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is 'on the side of life,' teaches that 'it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life.' 'This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.'"

    Humanae Vitae (written by St. Pope Paul VI), n. 11:
    "The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life."

    Stop spreading lies about Church teaching, and if you refuse to accept Church teaching, stop pretending to be Catholic.
     
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  16. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    dlansky
    Sorry I'm awnser only now.

    You say it is one "outrageous lie" when i say Pope Benedict XVI allow condoms and no it is not one lie... he say allow in case to prevent "AIDS", he read the newspapers to and after that he dont say they cant to correcting...
    You are try to say that the persons that use condoms are sinners and the Pope allow only to make they less sinners... you are call everyone sinners that dont do sex only to make babys... do you realize that?!

    Can we please stop the bullshit?!
    First sodom is gay sex and not woman-male anal sex and there is nathing in the bible that say it is forbid. End, please stop... finish... please... thank you.

    You say it is sin anal sex because we can only have sex to make babys?! you dont live in this world for shure... do you really think the couples that sleep in the same bed many times naked and they only have sex when they want to have kids?! Imagine the persons that have only have 1 kid so they only have sex with they partner 1 time in all they married life?!
    That is the same to tell to the married couples you need to sleep in separated rooms and you can only sleep together when you want to have kids.
    This is the same thing that you are say that catholic church say that all married couples need to sleep in separated rooms but not when they are try to have babys... It looks the engineers need to rebuild the homes rooms to catholic couples lol really?!
    Some do but for bether santification but very very few...
    Give me a break...
    You are distort all not me.

    The real true about religion and catholic church and all this stuff is:
    * The original sin...
    * sex is not forbid
    * is recomended do chastity in couples... but that one option.
    * there is no place in the bible that say anal sex is forbid male-woman
    * the problem of contraception is because life start when the male-woman stuff touch, give a small light "scientists allready save the light moment in video" so if you take contraception what it happens is to kill something that it is allready start, the reaction, "the baby" and this is killing one life because life start at conception... when make this light... it is science.
    So contraception that kill something that allready start the reaction and the light "the baby" is abortion... is killing one life... and abortion is wrong and forbid in catholic church. So contraception that make abortion is forbid.
    But... if you use one condom the male stuff dont touch the woman stuff so there is no light, no conception... It is like the wife masturbate the male or something else, the stuff dont touch together... so no babys... understand?!
    Forbid use condoms and make sex only to have babys is the same as saying it is forbid the woman give handjobs to the husband... and other stuff... only pussy sex...

    Do you really think the married couples sleep in the same bed everydays naked or allmost naked together and they dont have sex?!
    And they can hold on and do it only when they want to have babies.
    Are you crazy?!
    You look a little innocent... not living in real life... sorry to say that...

    The only reason they say that is for santification... chastity in marriage it is recomended... and only a very... very... few couples do it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  17. Tryin' Hard

    Tryin' Hard Fapstronaut

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    Mate, your argument really boils down to this: morality aside - people don't have the willpower or the situation to be able to live a good Catholic life. I have no clue what Pope Benedict said or didn't say, but it doesn't matter. The Bible and the Catechism are clear and I've tried showing you this.

    You ended your post by saying "you look a little innocent... not living in real life." I respond by asking if this is a bad thing. As Catholics we're called to live in the world but not of it. (1 John 2:15-17, also note John 17:17) We're told that this life is merely a dim reflection of the true perfection that the church calls us to and that we'll live in heaven. We're not called to live sad excuses of lives in sexual immorality - we're called to be innocent. We're told that we'll only enter the kingdom of heaven if we act like children. And to be clear, I haven't done the best job of being innocent - but that's what we're trying to do. That's why we're here - to be holy, to be innocent, to live lives with chastity and without immorality.

    You asked whether we're crazy for asking couples to save sex for marriage and for procreation. In the world's eyes... and in your eyes that may be true. But it's what God's calling us to do, it's completely possible (because I've seen and heard thousands upon thousands of stories of saints who achieved it) and it's the right thing to do.

    I also repeat that chastity is different from abstinence. Dictionary definition - abstinence is complete lack of sex for sanctification and penance, chastity is using sex in it's proper place as God intended and encouraged. We need to be chaste, we don't need to be abstinent.

    When it comes to the morality of condoms, this is a purely theological matter. If the purpose of a condom is to come between the penis and vagina, it directly violates the secondary nature of sex - unity between a husband and a wife. You can try and argue the point but the church is clear. To quote Humanae Vitae, contraception is “any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods. Practically, condoms don't always prevent AIDS. There are studies on this. You can argue the point but it doesn't change the facts. The only true way to prevent AIDS is abstinence - which is not required. Chastity itself drastically reduces you chances of getting AIDS because you only have one sexual partner and there's no oral or anal. Think about it.

    We're not saying sex is forbidden - we're encouraging it to take place where it belongs, between a husband and a wife. We're also not saying that married couples should sleep in separate rooms. I encourage married couples to sleep in the same room, in the same bed because they are married. That's a weak comparison and a weak argument... and it's also a strawman since you're calling us out on a point we've (I've) never made. And yes, we don't live in this world... we try to live in heaven.

    Please read what we have to say.
    Prayers,
    Tryin'
     
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  18. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    dlansky , Tryin' Hard

    Ok... here we go... and sorry i dont anwser earlier, was to post this yesterday and today seems i have another post, I will try to explain the in the best clear way i can .
    I know contraception is forbid in Catholic Church because is ussually pure abortion it kill the baby just after start, after the woman stuff touch the male stuff and start the reaction of live, i'm pro-life, but in condoms the woman stuff dont touch the male stuff so no baby, so no abortion... and all this stuff you guys say about make sex only to have babys dont make much sense, I'm not say it is impossible but a litle unrealistic one man and one woman sleep in the same bed naked or with litle clouthes and they resist and make sex only when they want to have babys?! So... i talk with one person i know and he tell me the same so i get a litle confused and in next day, yesterday i go study and try to find what is happen here...?! and i spent big part of the day study.
    And i note there are a lot of confusion here about what it is and what it is not. So here we go...
    #########
    dlansky is say that the church say that married couples shoud use sex only to make babys and if is not to make babys it is forbid.
    "the Church forbids sexual acts that are not ordered toward the procreation of human life:"
    It is completely wrong, big mistake... the church dont say that... but why I'm say that?!

    1) "Humanae Vitae"
    You justify yourself with "Humanae Vitae" because it say:
    "its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life."

    Ok the mistake here is the Pope Paul VI when write the Humanae Vitae he write in Italian and Latin and then the document was translate to other languages like English... and the World dont speak only English we just we usually adopted english to talk with persons with other languages... and... the original text say:
    "rimanere aperto alla trasmissione della vita"
    So...: rimanere aperto == stay open
    and... "stay open" is not the same "its intrinsic", intrinsic means is one must be and the Pope dont say it is one "must be or intrinsic" but he say they must "stay open" and that a big diference... so if one couple must stay open must use sex to have kids and make one family and it doesn't mean you can only have sex only to make babys...
    So it is one english confusion translate... you can verify in the vatican website the italian document and the english document for yourself.
    So basically what he is say in all document the "encyclical" is that the married couples shoud not marry only to have one sex partner or only to make sex but to have one family and that one family shoud have babys and babys are one bless of God. So... yes if one couple want to marry and have sex they shoud have kids but that dont mean they must only have sex when they are make babys.
    So... "stay open" and "its intrinsic" is one very big diference...

    2) So back to "Humanae Vitae" again...
    In number 16 [The Recourse To Infertil Periods] it say:

    "the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained."
    "Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception"
    "In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. " -> The Recourse to Infertile Periods

    So this means that the Church allow the "contraception billings method" and is the only oficial contraception method allow from Chatolic Church because it is one nature method.
    You can call "Calendar based contraceptive methods"

    So if you read all the "Humanae Vitae" the number 16 you will note that the church allow to married couples to have sex in infertil periods and not only make sex only to have babys.

    So you guys are wrong and very wrong... when you are say all this stuff there... and try to tell to me and and to the others persons that we can only have sex to make babys and that catholic church say that and it is forbid... Catholic Church and "Humanae Vitae" and the Saint Pope John Paul VI dont say that... he say the opposite... that married couples can take advantage of infertil periods.

    3) Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2366
    "which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."

    This is correct as the "Humanae Vitae" say, one married couple shoud be one family and one family shoud have babys but that dont mean that need to make sex only to have babys. It is say only that the procreative significance shoud be present in marriage, nathing more...

    4) Now back to "Humanae Vitae" again...

    Now to you understand the "Humanea Vitae" you must understand that Saint Pope John XXIII start one commission and Saint John Paul VI finish with encyclical "Humanae Vitae" and what they are try to discuss in the time was the "contraception pill" that was something new to the humanity and in this discuss they talk to allow married couples only to make sex and dont have babys, and stuff like sterilization and is wrong one married couple shoud be one family we shoud not married only to have one sex partner but one family.
    So all the contraception methods that come after that was not full discuss and the persons allways get the idea that church is against contraception but the Church have is own oficial method approved "the contraception method billings"
    So "Humanae Vitae" basic discuss was to talk about the new "contraception pill", Birth Control, sterilization and married couples shoud be able to be married have sex and forget the kids and family if they want.

    Now "contraception pill" is pure abortion and is forbid, is abortion because it destroy after the male stuff and woman stuff touch and start the live of one baby and the live start at conception when they touch and the contraception pill destroy that, kill the baby.
    Now in the condoms the woman stuff and the male stuff dont touch so no babys, no abortion...

    And... I know very well what Bento XVI say, he say is bether to use condoms that dont use it and spreading aids but he never say he forbid condoms or dont forbid condoms.
    #########
    I can tell more stuff about this... like they try to destroy the "Humanae Vitae" the social comunication martyred "Humanae Vitae" and the Saint Pope John Paul VI so much that he have even priest oposition and he get so sad and socked that was is last encyclica and after that he dont do more encyclica.
    John_Davison_Rockefeller_III , Father Hesburgh Notre Dame united states rector and is picture with President leftist Obama and planned parenthood, racism, the try blacks dont reproduced and catholics to help to finish the race and other stuff but bether not....
    #########
    So... what we have real have is:

    1) sodom is gay sex and not woman-male anal sex and there is nathing in the bible that say it is forbid. End, please stop... finish... please... thank you. If you dont like ok... your stuff...
    2) Sex is allow inside marriage and not only make sex to make babys.
    3) The Catholic Church allow the "contraception billings method" , "Calendar based contraceptive methods" or... Recourse to Infertil Periods.
    4) Pope Benedict XYI give tolerance to condoms to avoid spreading aids but he dont say it will be forbid or not forbid to married couples so we dont know... and in "Humanae Vitae" they probablly not discuss the condoms very much and the new methods that come after that and the real big question was the new abortion "contraception pill".
    5) They dont say couples cant make sex games like handjobs, and other stuff since it is not adultery... but everyone that read that Saints know is not bad make chastity inside marriage. Chastity = no sex it have beneficts. Very few married couples Saints do it... not everyone... very rare... and if you want to make chastity "no sex" inside marriage will probablly be very dificult do it if the couple sleep in the same bed... I`m not say it is impossible... but if you want do to chastity "no sex" you dont sleep with womans... Family its a blessing... and yes chastity have benefits.

    I hope can make me understand what i was try to say and all this is bether clear now...
    All good.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020 at 6:00 PM
  19. Tryin' Hard

    Tryin' Hard Fapstronaut

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    Okay, let me summarize what I'm saying since it doesn't seem like you're hearing me.

    According to Merriam-Webster, abstinence is "the practice of abstaining from something : the practice of not doing or having something that is wanted or enjoyable - abstention from sexual intercourse." In other words - complete lack of sexual activity. This is not required by the church. To be chaste is to be "innocent of unlawful sexual intercourse - pure in thought and act." You've just got chastity and abstinence switched around. I acknowledge you're not a native english speaker - that's fine, just please be careful with your terms.

    Although I disagree and say that the Vatican is very careful with their translations, that they translate knowing the fullness of Catholic doctrine and that claiming you can translate better is prideful - let's go with your translation of humanae vitae. Staying open to conception is the right thing to do. I agree with you here. But, let's put this statement in the context of the greater church's teaching by using another quote you gave. "which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act." -CCC Furthermore, let's note that the CCC is native to English. No possible translation issues here. We also both agree on the validity of the CCC as a definitive source for catholic teaching.

    Let's highlight two words - unitive and procreative. Unitive means having uniting qualities. It means that sex is meant to bring a husband and wife closer together. Literally. Both physically and emotionally. Fact - a condom comes between the penis and the vagina. Also fact - the condom is a barrier between the man and the woman. Therefore - a condom hinders the unitive nature of sex. According to the CCC, it is wrong to break the unitive significance of sex. Regardless of interpretation. This is plain as day if you read the quote, no interpretation required.

    Let's use similar logical reasoning based on this same quote, highlighting the procreative nature of sex. According to the CCC, man on his own initiative may not break the procreative or unitive significance inherent to the marriage act. Man can't stop sex from creating children or unifying else it's a sin. I think we agree on this. But let's think about this logically. If procreation - if mutual orgasm in the vagina and subsequent conception are inherent to the marriage act then it is wrong to separate orgasm from occurring the vagina. This is where we disagree. Anal sex has to be wrong since orgasm itself is inherent to procreation which is inherent to sex. Any removal of orgasm from the vagina is a sin. Hence masturbation is a sin, hence masturbating your partner is a sin, hence hand jobs and t*t jobs and hence anal sex are sins. I'm trying to avoid misinterpretation by using clear logic. I have all my reasoning on the table as a logical explanation of definitive church teaching.

    I agree that the contraception pill is wrong and is killing. Nobody here has claimed it isn't. Watch your strawman fallacy. I also agree that Natural Family Planning, or as you call it calendar contraception is not wrong. No one here has claimed it is wrong. Another strawman. (Very briefly, I believe all contraception is wrong. I believe NFP is not a form of contraception because it doesn't do anything to hinder the natural course of sex and conception - rather times the natural occurrence of sex so that the likelyhood of conception is astronomically low. Not conception - natural, god-made biology. I'm pretty sure you agree here though.)

    Mate, I want to affirm that I've been actively trying to understand your position from the start. I've read every one of your posts in this thread at least a couple times. What I'd appreciate is if you took a little time to read what we're saying. It'll help you make your posts more accurate, help me to feel understood, and also prevent you from making accidental straw man arguments. (I assume you're familiar with what it is - it's creating a wrong, slightly skewed version of what the other person is saying and arguing against that made-up position.) I've invested time and effort into this conversation because I firmly believe that the Catholic church teaches that anal sex and masturbating your spouse is a mortal sin and I believe I have the logical explanations of the solid evidence to prove it. I believe you are in danger of sinning and I'm putting effort into this conversation to put you on the path to an eternal reward. I hope you can see this and I hope you put time into reading what I have to say.

    *just noting - I only have things in bold to highlight your attention to them. I'm not angry or anything - I just acknowledge that large paragraphs of text are hard to read and that it's easier to read when things are brought out visually.

    Keeping you in my prayers,
    Tryin'
     
    dlansky and 1Peter5:8 like this.
  20. White_umbrella

    White_umbrella Fapstronaut

    M -|- MA , -|- S.F.
    -|-

    I was try to avoid this conversation so in my last post i just just put the references but as you insist...
    #########
    dlansky: "Stop spreading lies about Church teaching, and if you refuse to accept Church teaching, stop pretending to be Catholic."

    This is one big offense probablly more big then you can realize.
    First i was not lie, lot of things distort here and i show some of they.
    So you are say that the you are the true catholic and the others are here pretending to be catholics... so you think you bether catholic then the others right?! But the reality you know very litle about me... and you are noone to judge anyone.
    It was the proud of the devil that put him down... the devil is proud thinks he is better than the others he even he try to be bether then God... and everyone know what happened...
    So... what one catholic is here say he is one true catholic and accuses others of being Catholic of the second class using the same proud that condemned the devil and call the others "pretending to be Catholic."
    If you have glass roofs don't throw stones at the other roofs.
    #########
    ###
    The "discussion" I'm having here is because persons here are say that catholics only can have sex to make babys only and they are not allow to have is sex plays as they enjoy it and who make is a sinner...
    ###
    #########
    dlansky: "I again site where the Church forbids sexual acts that are not ordered toward the procreation of human life:"
    "White_umbrella, You really need to read your Catechism (for starters) before making statements about what the Church teaches. Any genital sexual activity that is not ordered toward procreation is immoral."

    That the same that say we can only have sex to have babys...
    He call me lier but even Saint Pope John Paul VI dont agree with him and agree with me in "Humanae Vitae" number 16 "recourse to infertile periods" when allow married couples have advantage of this time and is the oficial catholic church contraception method allow.

    So I'm not lie and "spreading lies about Church teaching" and I'm not "pretending to be Catholic." the only one who is here lie about catholic teachings is you and who defend this.

    So conclusion: recourse to infertile periods allow by Saint John VI means that you can have sex not only to make babys if you use infertile periods.
    So if you want tell me I'm wrong i'm a sinner... and whathever that i'm spreading lies about the church and i'm pretending to be Catholic you need to read bether the number 16 in "Humanae Vitae".
    So: Married couples can have sex and not only to make babys, that the Church teachings. ["Humanae Vitae"] number 16. verify for yourself.
    #########
    Tryin' Hard No i dont switch nathing, sexual chastity is no sex, and chastity can be used as abstinence. Some they call chastity inside marriage because they are legal sex but that not the true chastity, the true chastity is no sex.
    Chastity still remains no sex. You can call chastity inside marriage because sex is allow and you are legal inside marriage but that not the true chastity "no sex".
    And i dont claim i can translate bether, you say that not me... I'm not english professor neither english is my first language. I just say i read the documents in italian and in english and note this diference and that change all the sense. dlansky was try to use this to explain that married couples only can have sex to have babys then i show the document in italian and what he is say is wrong, nathing more.
    #########
    Back to the Catechism of the Catholic Church: 2366
    "which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act."

    Here it say that the marriage shoud be used to the procreative significance, that one married couple shoud do procreative significance but dont say that every time the couples have is intimate acts they need to make babys or is wrong to separate orgasm from occurring the vagina, handjobs, blowjobs and like stuff that.
    Its is one big diference...
    #########
    Tryin' Hard My position is:
    Chastity "no sex" bether.
    Marriage with chastity "no sex" bether.
    Marriage and make sex only to make babys very good option i full agree...
    But... I refuse and I`m not going to judge and accuse no one if they have they fantasies and intimate play that you guys are there try to condemn and try to say that Catholic Church forbid because it dont.

    "procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act." means the marriage shoud have procreative significance but dont say they cant have they fantasies and they are forbid... big diference...

    If you dont agree with condoms ok is allways bether the Church method shure. Persons say Catholic Church is agains contraception but they forget Catholic church allow "The Recourse to Infertile Periods" and you can use the "contraception billings method" or "Calendar based contraceptive methods"

    I'm not going to keep this conversation, that not what brings me here to this forum. Thank you.
    All good for everyone.
    God bless you.
     

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