Warfman
Fapstronaut
A few times my wife has said, I can't even trust myself, so how can I trust anyone else?
A few times my wife has said, I can't even trust myself, so how can I trust anyone else?
This really resonated with me. I cannot tell you how much time I wasted using this argument to try to get my ex to empathize with my situation. His answer was always the same as your husband’s. This drove me crazy until I had a revelation. By and large, men get sexual attention based on their power, accomplishments and wealth. Women get their sexual power almost solely by means of their physical appearance, which in our culture is very strongly tied to youth. So, against a fat, old rich guy, a young, good-looking, but otherwise unaccomplished stud is relatively powerless. So of course men aren’t jealous of them. Maybe a better strategy would be to ask them how they would feel knowing their wives were scrolling endlessly through Linkedin, masturbating to pages of men vastly more rich, powerful, and accomplished than they are.
But the serious point here, and what makes so many of us despair, is that men are able to compete for sexual attention using things they have at least a theoretical possibility of achieving – things that CAN happen in this universe. Women compete for sexual attention with things completely out of their control, youth and physical attributes associated with youth. And in this universe we can never be 16 again.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
I’m going to interject something that I believe is completely being missed. I could be wrong. Both of you are and were arguing with SEX addicts. Of course they see nothing wrong with it. However, if you had this conversation with a healthy man he would agree with you. That it’s gross, and he doesn’t understand it either and he thinks it’s wrong too. In fact, if you have the conversation with a sex addict in long term recovery he also understands and sees it this way. Keanu Reeves is a very good example. (Whereas Leonardo DeCapio is a consumer. )Because they understand that admiring beauty is different than consuming for their sexual pleasure. Now, society, has pushed and encouraged men to be consumers of beauty and in fact told them something is wrong with them if they are not. So, we see less and less admirers and more consumers. Also unfortunately, we are beginning to see more women become consumers, and abusers. Now that women are finally able to secretly indulge in sex and porn they have started using more and more. Sex has historically been something only men “ enjoy” and desire. Women had to do their duty, put up with it etc. 26 different meds to help men with sexual dysfunction while there is only 1 to help women. Because sexual pleasure for women is not important. Our world has told men sex is most important,they deserve it, power, they need it while simultaneously telling women to guard herself, be a virgin, do her duty in marriage. The double standard is still alive but it’s dying as more women have decided they can enjoy sex without having to tie themselves to a man.This really resonated with me. I cannot tell you how much time I wasted using this argument to try to get my ex to empathize with my situation. His answer was always the same as your husband’s. This drove me crazy until I had a revelation. By and large, men get sexual attention based on their power, accomplishments and wealth. Women get their sexual power almost solely by means of their physical appearance, which in our culture is very strongly tied to youth. So, against a fat, old rich guy, a young, good-looking, but otherwise unaccomplished stud is relatively powerless. So of course men aren’t jealous of them. Maybe a better strategy would be to ask them how they would feel knowing their wives were scrolling endlessly through Linkedin, masturbating to pages of men vastly more rich, powerful, and accomplished than they are.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
I think Hollywood portrays a very different picture. Countless, romantic chick flicks have women in a position where they are choosing between two men, and cheat. The interest of the men are very much neglected, in favor of the woman's emotions, desires etc.
I don't enjoy the broad brush generalization discussions because so much gets missed. But I agree with your main point about addict vs non addict. Before reading your post I was thinking of adding something about this. It's not some societal thing, it's that you aren't having a conversation with someone in a position to even understand your perspective.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Very good point. I’m also coming from a religious background which did shape my views, albeit not nearly as warped as some religious teaching. But in general much of religion teaches sex as bad until marriage lol.. Hollywood has also pushed the consumer of sex agenda. Notice how many more scenes of masturbation are shown. That was never a thing decades ago. When I was growing up pornography was a seedy, embarrassing, only deviants did it type thing. I’m not sure when it changed though?
Warfman
Fapstronaut
From my perspective, and this is somewhat the main point of red pill arguments (which I don't think offer good advice). Is that women's value is much different than men's. "Most" men don't have multiple options or potential suitors, a quote from John Eldredge's book "Wild at Heart" I think articulates what so often happens at a very early age for men.
“What makes pornography so addictive is that more than anything else in a lost man’s life, it makes him feel like a man without ever requiring a thing of him. The less a guy feels like a real man in the presence of a real woman, the more vulnerable he is to porn.”
The way I see it, women often develop before their male peers, and in the high school landscape often, the girl chooses an "older" guy. Red pill would say their "value" is innate, where as men's is more earned with status etc. But ultimately, if a man and in this case a young man, feels inadequately capable of feeling like a "man" the lure of porn is very powerful.
This for me happened at such a young age I didn't even know it was happening. But it definitely was. Unraveling that is a very tedious process. (For me personally I had two ex's "dupe" close friends into relationships with them just weeks after we broke up, from my perspective they weaponized their "value" to win at a game of jealousy, and my stupid "friends" obliged them.). The dating world is a rough place... Lol. Rather than try and compete at a game I knew I couldn't win. I went to porn to cope with all I was feeling in those times. If you would have confronted me then, I would have said there's no way I have an addiction, or that I was going to hurt anyone with my actions. That thought would not have resonated at all.
I don't know where I'm really going with all this, other than to say, the development of the addiction happens sometimes for relatively reasonable reasons. But the addiction itself is incredibly damaging to the self. And it hurts those closest to us, what is the hardest problem it seems is learning how to see things differently for the addict so that they understand the consequences of their actions. The addiction is a learned behavior to cope, and it often comes from a self preservation motive. There's very little space for understanding others when someone is just trying to make it through the day. And I think that happens especially when an addict is found out, and isn't in a space where they were "ready" to come out. The tools needed are often just not there to see any of it from a different perspective.
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As always, I appreciate your perspective and I take your point about arguing with sex addicts! And I particularly like your thoughts about this flavor of “consumer” culture. But I’m not as confident as you are that non-sex addicted men would react the way you describe. Believe me, I would be genuinely delighted to be proven wrong about this! (And I don’t know exactly how one does that polling.
)Further, I think the Keanu Reeves example could also be used to support my position. What I remember about that “controversy” is that commenters and headline writers mostly fell into three camps. There were those who were absolutely gobsmacked that a man of his status would choose a woman in roughly his own age range; there were those who praised him for doing so; and there were those who were very upset that he was being lionized by some for simply exhibiting this mature and decent behavior. In all three positions there is embedded a cultural awareness that he, as an older, high-status man would have been expected to choose a much higher value (younger) woman than he did. The reactions to his behavior are an indication to me that he is the exception that proves the rule. That’s just my read on it.
Finally, I'm guessing we both understand the frustration and heartache that many SOs feel at not being able to find ways to help their partner empathize with their pain. I think we are also in agreement that it is a losing game for an SO to keep digging for an analogous situation that will finally do the trick.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Maybe I’ve just been blessed to be surrounded by healthy men most of my life. Don’t get me wrong, there are plenty out there who don’t view it this way.As always, I appreciate your perspective and I take your point about arguing with sex addicts! And I particularly like your thoughts about this flavor of “consumer” culture. But I’m not as confident as you are that non-sex addicted men would react the way you describe. Believe me, I would be genuinely delighted to be proven wrong about this! (And I don’t know exactly how one does that polling.
Further, I think the Keanu Reeves example could also be used to support my position. What I remember about that “controversy” is that commenters and headline writers mostly fell into three camps. There were those who were absolutely gobsmacked that a man of his status would choose a woman in roughly his own age range; there were those who praised him for doing so; and there were those who were very upset that he was being lionized by some for simply exhibiting this mature and decent behavior. In all three positions there is embedded a cultural awareness that he, as an older, high-status man would have been expected to choose a much higher value (younger) woman than he did. The reactions to his behavior are an indication to me that he is the exception that proves the rule. That’s just my read on it.
Finally, I'm guessing we both understand the frustration and heartache that many SOs feel at not being able to find ways to help their partner empathize with their pain. I think we are also in agreement that it is a losing game for an SO to keep digging for an analogous situation that will finally do the trick.
And, it was disgusting how many men and women, women!!! Were saying why is Keanu with her, she looks like his mother. Women!!! WTH! You watch, now that hsi p has been easily accessible we will see more women doing the same things men are doing. The things that kept women in check ,financial constraints , societal shaming, pregnancy, will not have the same influence on the younger generations.
This reminds me of the following: "The chronically immature partner can push you away without hesitation. He can turn off caring for you like a light switch because he cannot hold your perspective while experiencing his own emotions, he is insulated from the true emotional impact of his actions".
Yes, the patriarchal society most of us grow up in has a huge amount to answer for.
Yes some films will show women having 'the upper hand' - being able to choose, being in control, and no doubt that does reflect some examples of real life. But on the whole society is set up for the advantage of men. Most media is created for the male gaze. Apologies for a load of generalisation here, but men still win at earning more for the same labour, are more likely to get promotion, have more leisure time and resources, and they do not have the same fears of sexual harassment or assault that women routinely live with. Unfortunately no one wins with society like this. Wouldn't it be great if there was mutual respect, opportunities and safety.
Is anyone familiar with Nick Cave's Red Hand files? He said recently most of the thousands of messages he receives on all sorts of deep, emotional issues come from people feeling a lack of control in their lives. A lot of the p my stbx is drawn to has themes of control in it - his way of having a little bit of control in a life he otherwise feels is out of his control. Likewise a huge amount of my pain has been caused by having no control over what he chooses to do, or his lies (lying also related to control). Apologies I've gone a bit off topic, but I really appreciate the thoughts and comments in this thread.
Real Jerry Seinfeld
Fapstronaut
This is the reality of it. Whilst there may be exceptions, I believe the general rules you've expressed here hold true at practically all times and places. The world over powerful men and beautiful women are attracted to each other. This presumably has its roots in evolutionary biology rather than being something dictated by social norms. These norms and values themselves are reflections of human drives, desires and behaviours rather than determinants of them.This really resonated with me. I cannot tell you how much time I wasted using this argument to try to get my ex to empathize with my situation. His answer was always the same as your husband’s. This drove me crazy until I had a revelation. By and large, men get sexual attention based on their power, accomplishments and wealth. Women get their sexual power almost solely by means of their physical appearance, which in our culture is very strongly tied to youth. So, against a fat, old rich guy, a young, good-looking, but otherwise unaccomplished stud is relatively powerless. So of course men aren’t jealous of them. Maybe a better strategy would be to ask them how they would feel knowing their wives were scrolling endlessly through Linkedin, masturbating to pages of men vastly more rich, powerful, and accomplished than they are.
I’m of the opinion, now, that I’m not sure there are many out there that actually are. And especially not now with the internet and media in general getting worse and worse.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
I'll keep politics out of it other than to say, the solution isn't to demonize the other side. There are many reasons for the pay gap, that have nothing to do with some advantage men have. Choice and preferences etc are very prevalent.
I agree with you though, it would be great if we could get to the point of having mutual respect. IMHO though many who site the pay gap as evidence of their point of view don't offer the mutual respect they demand.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Hurt people hurt people. Is how I've said it. It's not right, but when a person is in self protection mode, there's zero space for any empathy, the same can be said for someone dealing with betrayal trauma. It sucks that it's what happens, the best source I have found on facilitating a healthy relationship and working though this is a YouTube channel I'll link here. Jimmy on Relationships he's really really good. He actually cheated on his wife, not sure how long it has been but he's done a lot of work and his content is awesome.
USER_ERROR
Fapstronaut
I have come to the conclusion that technically according to Greek mythology Greek philosophers concur in this the same attracts the same and Chemistry has given us several examples of this natural law some polar abnormalities notwithstanding a scientific approach to relationships is desirable in the age of information and given the immense universe data available it renders obsolete most of the antiquated ways of communication or converse given that as a principle pairings should be accomplished exclusively in the inter web coupling as many personality traits as possible and following the proposal to its ultimate logical consequences insemination or adoption of a third party with a compatible genome to pass information and estates should be the next step in the search of perpetuating the family unit and having no need to remove the partners from their workplaces or even from their internet connections surely they can buy the white picket fence wallpaper after all in a design pleasing for both and ask for their descendant to be exposed to the images daily so they grew the attachment desirable to the concept of home the way forward is inherently linked to the way we have come to move from the here and now we need to look backwards not forwards to pull through the minutia of the past accomplishments injecting them into the world we are living in at the present time to draw from the policies of our forefathers and their great achievements is not merely a want of those with the power and will for such endeavors but a need to drag humanity to a new place past what we now have
Just on a societal level I feel like both qualities of masculinity and femininity have been brutalized and twisted. We have encouraged negatives of both and discouraged the positive aspects.
we have told boys that you’re a loser if you don’t sleep around and be a dominant mate with no nuance. We have told women they are just here for their beauty. We medicate boys who are rambunctious instead of teaching them to hone it. Little girls are beaten down emotionally from basically the beginning we tell them they have to be passive slaves instead of wanting to serve others willingly.
it manifests in men who are either too far one way or the other and women who feel they don’t have a voice some of them start pushing to be more masculine as a result or are just terrified of retribution. We were meant to be partners side by side fulfilling our roles together not pushing each other down.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
I definitely agree!
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
I agree, there are many reasons for pay gaps. In general I’ve found men and women are paid the same for the exact same job. But, explain why so many jobs that are “typical” female dominate are paid less than typical male dominated? Child care for instance? Nannies? Although not physically taxing, you are responsible for the life of another! lol. Honestly though, pay rates are so screwed up, not just between males and females. Farmers barely scrape by while athletes make millions. It bothers me more the trend I see of saying “ sahm get to stay home with the kids, free food, car, housing” while husband provides. I’m sorry, I didn’t “get”to stay home. We made a choice that *I* would be the one who stayed home because I had a much longer commute, less benefits and our pay was equal. I enabled him to further his career while I sacrificed my career and my future retirement in both my 401k and ss. I started my own business while I was a sahm but it made a fraction of what I had been earning. I’m just grateful my husband understood that we both made choices and sacrifices and the money he earned was both of ours, not just his.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
So there's something here, that I'd like to point out, it's definitely not a 100 percent blame of women or anything, just a factor for porn addiction in todays world. I think it relates to the quote of John Eldredge's, "When a man feels less like a real man in front of a real woman, the more vulnerable he is to porn". Call it the male ego, but "we" or many maybe, deeply desire to take care and provide of our wives, society is trying really hard to strip that from young men, "no woman NEEDs a man". Sometimes I just want to be needed, I want to provide and it be appreciated, I deeply desire to be depended on, for my strength, efforts, sacrifices, etc. I'm not saying that a woman shouldn't strive to pursue a career, just pointing out what a man desires, this just seems to be getting worse and worse. If I was a kid in these days, I'd feel pretty dang worthless. Young boys need built up, not torn down, and that message seems louder and louder anymore. When I don't feel appreciated, P addiction urges are SO much louder and harder to control.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Yes, but some men/women then turn and financially abuse the partner who has agreed to stay home. I don’t think the “ provider” realizes sometimes what a very vulnerable position this puts the sahp. My husband was so proud that he could provide, and I was incredibly grateful as well. But it only works if you both appreciate the sacrifices the other is making. Both are sacrificing something. I have both a son and daughters. I don’t want either being torn down, but see it both ways. I see what my girls are going through and what my boy is. Men have different struggles than women , but honestly, everyone is struggling.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
I agree, and wasn't trying to imply that any of that isn't very real.
Don't know why I feel an obligation to say something in threads like this but sometimes I feel someone needs to say something about men's perspective or it is nothing but how men are the problem in everything, which isn't true.