Does Satan make music?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Apr 1, 2017.

What music do you think is acceptable?

  1. Only music written to honour God.

  2. Any music that does not directly disrespect God.

  3. Any music at all.

  4. Something else.

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  1. I also find when I listen to hymns - and sing them it puts me in a positive, spiritual state. The temptations fade away..
     
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  2. MyNameIsX

    MyNameIsX Fapstronaut

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    Religious music is only a subset of all music that is pleasant and life affirming. There is plenty of pleasant, life affirming music that is completely secular in nature.

    If your main sources of music are split between church choirs and populist trash about shooting hoes etc, then the church choir will win every time. I can see how you would think music needs to be about god to be beautiful.

    However, there is a whole world of music out there that doesn't require god to be beautiful.
     
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  3. Good point, there certainly is more to music than these two extremes. That said, I believe you could split music into just two categories: Music that honours God, and music that does not.

    The question I suppose is whether a believer should find value in music that is pleasant and life affirming, even if it doesn't bring glory to God. I suppose I can see how the answer to that question could easily be 'yes'. There is always however a danger that ungodly music will open up a backdoor for sin to enter our lives... even if it is generally positive. An example might be pride and feelings of independence, traits the which the world often views as a good thing - but can cause havoc in the life of a believer.
     
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  4. AllanTheCowboy

    AllanTheCowboy Fapstronaut

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    Yes, it tends to be. It's largely because it's easy to sell it just based on it being labeled Christian, that there isn't much need to bother with it being good. Christian music, though, encompasses over 1,000 years of musical tradition, and includes most of the greatest works written prior to the 20th century. Beethoven's Ninth Symphony, the first symphony of a major composer to include voices and widely considered one of the best pieces of music ever written, is a work of religious music, even though it was written on a commercial commission. Adding to that traditional sacred music, such as polyphonic Masses and chant, there is a massive (see what I did there? ;)) canon (see what I did there? ;)) of beautiful religious music. So, it would be more accurate to say you find Christian contemporary popular music to be horribly lame and cheesy. You are, of course, correct in that assessment.
     
  5. MyNameIsX

    MyNameIsX Fapstronaut

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    What is your opinion of churches and other religious buildings hosting secular music concerts?

    I play in an orchestra. We pretty much always practice and perform in churches because they are beautiful buildings with excellent acoustics. We only ever really perform secular music.

    Our concerts occasionally fund raise for repairs/improvements to the building we perform in. We're not supporting the religious aspect of the church as such, merely helping preserve the building.

    But as an organisation we are not religious. Sure, some of our members are religious, but others are not.
     
  6. Now that's what I call an interesting question! I've never considered this before, and I think it's quite a hard call to make.

    Of course, we know that the Church isn't really the building, but the community of believers - the building itself isn't necessarily more important than any other. After all, Matthew 18:20 says "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them", and not 'the building where two or three...'. This said, God definitely cares about the buildings we worship him in, as seen by Jesus driving out the money changers from the temple.

    What I would do if faced with this situation greatly depends on the circumstances.
    If it was happening in my own Church, I would respect the decision of the pastor and pray that God guides them. I would not be happy to attend, and would not do so unless educated otherwise.
    If it was proposed in a Church that I pastor (not that I am in away qualified to do so) I would not allow it to happen, simply because I believe the church should be a place of worship and teaching.

    I don't think it would be sinful, nor even necessarily a cause for concern, but that said it would not sit right with me personally, hence my responses. I would try to raise money in some other way, and in any case would take time to pray about the situation at hand.

    Are you religious yourself? What do you think? Oh and also; playing in an orchestra sounds awesome! What do you play?
     
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  7. Sad, but very true man.
    I was impressed :)
    Agreed in every respect. Thank you for your input.
     
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  8. MyNameIsX

    MyNameIsX Fapstronaut

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    I am an athiest/agnostic. I think I probably spend more time in churches than many Christians :)

    On a recent visit to Durham Cathedral (one of my favourite buildings in the whole world), I went to evensong. I love the atmosphere of Choral Evensong. I noticed that basically the church was mostly empty. I found this quite sad. The building has been there for a thousand years and is now barely used for its original purpose, even for something like evensong that can be appreciated purely for its aesthetic.

    While I don't have any real religious feelings for churches, I think they are beautiful buildings. I respect the craftsmanship that went into building them. I respect anything that could cause someone to build such an impressive structure.

    I am very much for anything that keeps these important buildings alive. There are churches near me that don't get used and they rapidly fall into disrepair.

    I have been to some religious events at churches and found them a monotonous dirge, where it was clear no one actually wanted to be there. I have seen people reading bible passages which they had clearly put a lot of thought into and deeply appreciated the sentiment as it represented something important to the reader, all while the congregation have let their children run around screaming while they talk among themselves. Religion or not, that shows a worrying level of disrespect. Of course, not all church services are like that, but it is upsetting the number I have been to that are.

    I have been to the same church for a secular music concert and seen the complete opposite. Everyone has been very polite. They have been quiet and listened with rapt attention. They have made the effort to approach me to personally thank me. I have helped people grieve for recent deaths and illnesses, with people crying after bottling it up. I have inspired people to make music themselves. They have shown far more respect and reverence for everything than the people I describe above "going to church". It has been in every way a positive experience.

    For many of us, churches are important concert venues. Without them, none of the music we play would have a chance to be performed. It would be quickly forgotten and die out. The only way to experience it would be via mp3's or youtube, listening to it on our head phones with the rest of the world shut out. For that reason they are also important social occasions.

    Listen to the birds singing. Sit in the woods experiencing a waterfall. Listen to secular music that is meant to inspire. Sit in a beautiful building (church or otherwise ) and look at the artwork there or listen to the music. If there is a god, I would like to think he would appreciate that much more than a bunch of dickheads feeling duty bound to go there ruining it for everyone else with their borderline feral behaviour.

    I also like reading the bible sometimes. I own several bibles. I like to think of it a Civilisation Handbook. It is excellent as a code of conduct for how to keep things working in an orderly fashion. I like to think of it as people in the desert just trying to make some sense of the world and find it comforting.

    I play Mandolin in the orchestra. I also play Clarinet and Saxophone, but lack an orchestra for those at the moment. I love playing the music of Telemann and Bach.

    Apologies if this has drifted a bit off topic from Christian Music :)
     
  9. I'm ashamed to say that I know exactly what you mean when you talk about how Churches can be. I'm not sure if it is just a UK problem or not, but much of the 'high church' does seem to be like you described, reluctant to be there. I hate to say it, but the church population is ageing rapidly - and I've yet to meet a single person under the age of 25 who is really on fire for God in my local community. Often the only young people you meet at church are in some way related to the vicar, or are just compelled to attend by their parents and intend to leave, never to return, as soon as they are able.

    The good news is, not all Churches are like that, you may not have seen them because they don't reside in the grand churches and cathedrals - instead they're smaller and more humble. Often they are Baptist or Methodist, and really do preach the word or God and challenge the congregation to fight the good fight. That is, I suppose, the 'low church'.

    As our country becomes more and more secular, I believe the buildings you described will slowly phase out. The high church will begin to dissolve, and eventually will disappear altogether. That said, I believe that Churches will still be going strong, just in more of the low church fashion - and will continue to preach the Gospel well into the future.

    That is of course, unless the Lord comes back soon or there's some sort of nation-wide revival.

    P.S. I'm embarrassed to say I had to Google "Mandolin", what a simpleton I am! Looks cool man, keep up the good work and thanks for your input. Have a blessed day.
     
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  10. :(
    I hope not, I'd love to see a revival. Seems many of 'new' churches (i don 't mean buildings but denominations) almost have an aversion to the symbolism of a 'church' . I do think there is something special in the old architecture - its the physical manifestation of the soul of the nation. I rather seem them put to some use than torn down, but I'd rather seem them used for worship rather than becoming book stores or condos or whatever.

    I don't have a problem with secular concerts and other mixed use, better to make these buildings living things again - but the primary purpose should be a place to 'tune in' to God....
     
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  11. I too would love to see a revival. It would literally take a miracle though - and in this day and age it would be so against the grain it really might take an event on the scale of the second coming to initiate. We can only hope and pray.

    I agree that the new Churches you describe do have an aversion to something the high church has, and I don't think its just the symbolism of the church itself, but all the associated negative traits that MyNameIsX mentioned. Maybe by shedding any physical likeness to the high churches (along any associated lofty grandeur they might have) they also seek to shed the negative ideas people have about the Church in general.

    I wish there was a solution to the problem. You're right - it would be an awful shame to lose them. Sadly, that's the way it looks to me however.
     
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  12. noonoon

    noonoon Fapstronaut

    Christians have to be careful not to be too scrupulous. There is a lot of good music that isn't Christian. For example, I enjoy "the sound of music". It's a musical with a lot of great music in it. "the hills are alive...with the sound of music..." you know the tune. How about Mary Poppins? "Let's go fly a kite..." That was a great musical. My kids love it. Is this bad too?
    Careful friends, that the boundaries we give to ourselves due to our own failures, we do not unnecessarily try and burden others with. Christ says, "my burden is easy and my yoke light." Being a Pharisee comes all too easily to us.
     
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  13. Amen to that. I think its been said before that the general consensus is that music that does not directly dishonour God isn't a sin in itself; after all, Mark 7:15 says "There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man".

    I would never make this a legalistic issue, and would certainly not place any emphasis on any of this discussion when talking to somebody about Jesus and the Gospel. This was more intended to be a discussion regarding best practise among saved believers, not right and wrong.

    After all, Paul in 1 Corinthians 10:23 says that "All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not". So long as the music we listen to does not directly dishonour God, nor become idolatry, we are surely free to exercise our freedom as saved believers in Christ. The question all along I suppose has been 'does it edify'. If not, it might be best practise to cast it off. For some, perhaps not.

    Following on from my above comments about our freedom in Christ, I think it's important to note that in 1 Corinthians 8:9 it says "But you must be careful so that your freedom does not cause others with a weaker conscience to stumble."

    Where you suggest that we impose these boundaries because of our own failures, I suggest that perhaps we do so because we are strong, rather than weak. By putting these boundaries in place nobody can look at us and say "look what he listens to; if he can listen to 'that', then why can't I listen to 'this'. After all we both just "enjoy" our respective genres". If we have an absolute divide in what we listen to, as in 'God-honouring' or 'not God-honouring' then maybe we remove a potential stumbling block, rather than laying one. Of course, you are absolutely right, only if we never stray into legalism.

    All this said, you have a good point... I very much doubt that Mary Poppins has ever become some sort of 'gateway drug' into the worlds of *insert wicked music*. Although, now I think about it, where did Mary Poppins get her powers? Oh no... you don't think... Satanic Witchcraft?!? ;)

    Thank you for your input, much appreciated. :)
     
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  14. IggyIshness

    IggyIshness Fapstronaut

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  15. noonoon

    noonoon Fapstronaut

    ha! nice response!

    My objection to the analogy is that i can easily make a similarly compelling but opposite example justifying the use of non Christian music.
    For example, if I were to invite a non-Christian over to my house for dinner, they may well find my all-christian-music-all-the-time alienating. It might be a serious turn off to them. They could reasonably think, "who would want to be a christian with all these rules?"

    I believe our role as Christians is to lead in our weaknesses not in our strengths. It is in our weakness that Christ shows His strength. Self discipline is a good thing, but not at all uniquely Christian. It is humility, generosity, meekness, self-control, faith, hope, and love that show the nature of Christ.

    Some may notice (or be inspired) by how "good" you are that you only listen to such-and-such music. But if this is why they're becoming Christian, it is a wrong headed introduction. They might as well become a boy scout. Or a muslim. Or a dentist's office lounge.
     
  16. Fap_Doc

    Fap_Doc Guest

    Yes I do. I use the skulls and bones of your ancestors to make it.
     
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  17. Fap_Doc

    Fap_Doc Guest

  18. I see what you are saying, and I would be 100% behind you for making a decision based on that mindset; After all, we really do have freedom in Christ. What a blessing that is! I would however challenge the thinking that leads somebody to decide that we, as ambassadors of Christ, should make ourselves more palatable to the people we seek to share the Gospel with, and alter our behaviours, so as to not alienate them.

    Christ certainly did no such thing, nor did the apostles. I think that we would be far better to shun worldly things in the pursuit of Christ-like purity, as opposed to flirting with the world's culture to make people feel more at home - in your own home. I believe this is not scriptural, they should not feel at home. Jesus said in Matthew 5:14-16 :

    "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (My Bold).

    When you say:

    Do you really mean it? Because Jesus said outright that it was what we should do as believers: Let our light shine before men. I agree that we should not be self-righteous, as that would be deceitful, there is none good but God, but to do the opposite in this one area would be absurd - as to not alienate people. If you really do have in your home the "humility, generosity, meekness, self-control, faith, hope, and love" you describe then the average person is already well outside of their comfort zone - I seriously doubt a lack of musical variety will shake them off. This is especially true if God's hand was already on them, as would be necessary in a true conversion.

    This goes both ways of course. You are completely right, if I don't have the attributes you described, namely love, my musical discipline will be worthless too. This goes without saying. Again, you are right in saying that Christ is made strong in our weakness, but that doesn't mean we should not seek to be strong! Christ's strength can also be shown in our strength! While it is a blessing that even in our weakest moments be can be a lamp of God and pleasing to him, we are not commanded to be weak - ever! Instead we are commanded to "Be strong and of a good courage". By being strong in Christ we do not negate Christ's strength!

    For another scriptural example of not going out of your way in the interest of being more palatable to unbelievers (even when speaking directly about potential converts), we can look at Jesus' words as he sends out the twelve apostles in Matthew 10:11-15 :

    "And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

    He didn't say, "Stay around for a bit, make some friends, and make yourselves as attractive as possible to the people in that city, make sure they know we are not so different after all. Be ye sure not to alienate them".
    Instead he said "Whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet". I really don't believe Jesus meant anything other than what he said here.

    I hope you don't think badly of me for writing this - I have an enormous amount of respect for you, and I certainly don't want you to think I'm questioning your faith. I just enjoy thinking and writing about what I believe and why I believe it, and I really do embrace others opinions and try to learn from them best as I can. I hope you can see my point of view on this issue, and would love to hear your (and anybody else's) thoughts.

    Blessings.
     
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  19. noonoon

    noonoon Fapstronaut

    I think you misinterpret my meaning, and perhaps i yours. There is a danger in Christianity to be too pedantic - missing the forest for the trees, so to speak. There are times where it is appropriate to whip the money lender, and times it is appropriate to dine with the sinner. To say one is always appropriate or the other always appropriate is to take the spirit out of the Gospel and instead rely on our own understanding!

    If the disciples could gleam wheat on the Sabbath despite a clear commandment not to do so, I certainly am free to enjoy Bob Marley with a fellow in the name of friendship and charity.

    Paul also says in 1 Cor 9:21-22: "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some."

    On another note, it is wrongheaded if someone infers that being a Christian is merely "being good" at self discipline. In fact, if that were the only point, there would be no need for Christ. Obviously, the point is to be Christ-like.

    Ironically, Christians prefer to discuss music rather than poverty. Yet, an examination of the Gospel would suggest poverty is essential to the Christian life, especially if one considers the apostles. Why is this? I think maybe it is so we can stop focusing on how loathsome we are, how in need of redemption and salvation, and instead pat ourselves on the back. It is, after all, an easily obtainable goal.

    Yet, if being perfect is our goal, if we truly want to be more than a good example, if we want to be a Christ-like example, we would "sell all we have and give to the poor". Would we not?

    This is why i don't get too excited about the music thing. If it makes you feel good, have at it. But it seems to me a rather poor example of what it means to be a follower of Christ. And as for shining the "light of Christ"? I don't see it. I see the light of man.

    God Bless

    PS. I think your reasoning and the clarity of your writing is top-notch! Good job. While we disagree on some minor trivialities, i'm glad to have you as an ally
     
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  20. I agree. He's an excellent writer.
     
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