Does Sex Save You?

[Deleted Account]

When your criticisms read as attacks, and you become more aggressive when the person you criticise tries to clarify their point, then you are likely to be criticised yourself.

This is a forum for people seeking and offering help and support. Since this section contains people needing help and support for rather different troubles (their own struggles with P or that of their partner) it makes sense that some of your posts will be criticised, and often by a subset of forum users coming from similar experiences who disagree with your points. You represent a group of people all causing the same pain that they experienced at the hands of their SO (P users/PAs). To be treated with hostility sometimes is to be expected, perhaps. But I will point out that Anna has remained polite, whereas you have continued to attack.

Something to think about, especially when you have such high standards of clarity and quality in the posts of others.

I did not attack anybody. I disagreed with someone. She is not the expert on everything SO-related. I'm an SO, too, but I'm never allowed to say anything contrary without everyone telling me how mean I'm being for disagreeing with someone who might be hurting or some crap. Its manipulative and I'm sick of it. I'm allowed to disagree with somebody, that is not an attack. End of discussion. I'm not going to apologize for disagreeing with someone.

 

[Deleted Account]

I just went back and read all of my replies in this thread, and I 100% did not "attack" anybody. And I did not continue to respond to Anna and "attack" her after she said she was done talking. I responded to other people who were responding to me. That's called a conversation. If you think that's an attack, then you need to get some thicker skin.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think what he is trying to say is, there is a fine line between having a different opinion=disagreeing with someone and trying to prove someone's opinion wrong because you feel like yours is right. The most neutral way to share your different opinion is to simply state your opinion, and it will become obvious that it's a different perspective than someone else's. If you start to dissect a specific opinion and make it clear how they're wrong and you're right, then that, subjectively, feels more like a personal attack, even if it isn't meant that way on your part. It feels like disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing to show someone they're wrong and prove you're right. If you simply say "I personally think that…" it comes across a lot more neutrally and respectful of their opinion, compared to quoting someone directly and counter-arguing their specific words.

 

[Deleted Account]

Honestly, y'all just need to grow up if you cant handle someone quoting a post and saying "I disagree with this." I even said in my post that I didnt mesn any offense or want to start an argument, I just wanted to provide a different perspective. So if that's still not good enough, then that's incredibly childish. People quote people all the time and provide counter opinions, and it usually doesnt result in this kind of response. Because most people are mature enough to handle someone disagreeing with somebody else and not see it as an attack.

 

[Deleted Account]

You are entitled to your opinion.

 

[Tannhauser]

Thank you for your insightful post @AnonymousAnnaXOXO

it's hard to want it and be rejected alot.

I was thinking about writing a response about fear and pain of rejection, but I wasn't sure how it would go over in this group. I don't intend to threadjack, but I'm not sure if this deserves it's own post - or again how such a post would be received. Honestly, I cannot fathom a relationship like @Jennica and @Katrina Rose mentioned above where their partner was never turned down for sex. In my marriage, feeling rejected (even if the feeling is unwarranted) has been a major trigger and source of pain for me. [I should be fair here, it's not always a straight out "no way" with a look of exasperation, but for somebody with self-confidence issues it's easy to turn "I'm to tired" into "I don't find you attractive" after it's been said one too many times - especially when she is too tired for sex, but not too tired to stay up for hours watching netflix and playing on her phone]. Some times it's easier to not even try, and the possibility of rejection begins to outweigh the potential joy of acceptance.

If you have a high libido and your wife isn't interested then you simply can M alone without P.

Everyone is different, however for me that has been a recipe for disaster. I have actually had a pretty easy time in the last nine months giving up P, but the secret I have found for me to finally break free from PA has been to fight against an addiction to M'ing - and that has been much more difficult. In the past when I would justify M as okay so long as I was fantasizing about my wife. Indeed, I foolishly thought it might "relieve the tension" and actually prevent me from turning to P. But it would still create a very strong chaser effect - much worse than came from actual intimacy with my wife - and would inevitably lead me closer and closer to other fantasies, and eventually to full on PMO and binging. Now that I am fighting (on pretty much a daily basis) the temptation to M, I hardly have room in my head to be tempted by P.

Again, that is just my experience.

 

[Queen_Of_Hearts_13]

Everyone is different, however for me that has been a recipe for disaster. I have actually had a pretty easy time in the last nine months giving up P, but the secret I have found for me to finally break free from PA has been to fight against an addiction to M'ing

Exactly! M is just as much an addiction as P, and my response was to the member who was not sure if he was really addicted, so I suggested taking time to experiment to see if he can come to his own conclusions.

I don't advocate to M if you're a PMO addict, but if you're on the fence and unsure then it's an individuals right to figure it out. I know that @kropo82 was one who thought he could just give up P and still have M but found that M led him back to P, which is why I feel M is a very slippery slope for an addict. But Kropo never would have found that out had he not tried and experimented.

For my husband M is probably the main addiction as well, so he does not P or M. O is only with me.

Everyone needs to find their own journey and own things that work for them in their recovery.

 

[Jennica]

for somebody with self-confidence issues it's easy to turn "I'm to tired" into "I don't find you attractive" after it's been said one too many times - especially when she is too tired for sex, but not too tired to stay up for hours watching netflix and playing on her phone].

I get this, if I understand your post correctly. I for the most part stopped initiating because that’s what I got for a while. It became crushing for me. The phone usage (I began to resent his phone), laptop, work , to tired all that stuff unless he initiated there for a while. If he wanted it I would for the most part not say no to his advances most likely out of desperation to feel contact from him thinking back on it. It really did turn “into I’m not attracted you” type of a feeling for me. This is also what lead to me feeling used. This is one reason why we have adopted the route we have taken in recovery, neither one of us feel rejected because we don’t push it, we have taken the emphasis off of sex and O and focus on the deeper intimacy. It’s certainly lead to more desire and appreciation for sexual intimacy between us.

 

[samnf1990]

I just went back and read all of my replies in this thread, and I 100% did not "attack" anybody. And I did not continue to respond to Anna and "attack" her after she said she was done talking. I responded to other people who were responding to me. That's called a conversation. If you think that's an attack, then you need to get some thicker skin.

I said it read as an attack. And the increased aggression of your posts is continuing. You are using insults and giving instructions now. Calling people childish and telling them to grow a thicker skin. Just as Anna did not mean to make sweeping statements and to imply she thought they applied in absolutely every case, you are probably not intending for the way you argue your points to come across as an attack, or for your response to criticisms to portray you as a petulant toddler who can't accept that their own view of the world and themself is shared by everybody else. The problem is, they have and they are.

Saying that you don't mean to cause offence doesn't mean that you won't.

 

[Deleted Account]

Saying that you don't mean to cause offence doesn't mean that you won't

I'm well aware of that. That's not all that I said.

 

[Queenie%Bee]

Gah . To answer the OP question on behalf of MYSELF , no one else , no other SO , no other PA . Simply put , in OUR experience when he came to ME with an “urge “ ( which I’m reading as an urge to look at porn and masturbate ) It FELT different. It felt rushed , empty , to get a job done . Sooooooo with that , I don’t think that could CAUSE a relapse persay , but I don’t think it HELPS either person and i don’t think it would STOP the PMO . That takes WORK . I 100 disagree with whomever said that sex bonds you . That is so untrue , in all my years of experience that is . 22 years with a porn addict . Healthy Sex bonds you in healthy ways . Unhealthy, porn fueled sex will make both feel empty . Disconnected. BUT everyone is different. If the choice was have my husband use me as a blow up doll , or have him communicate he’s having urges to PMO and actually talk feelings I pick the latter . AND in talking , his urge would most likely change to an urge to have soft gentle all encompassing sex
Peace

 

[Queen_Of_Hearts_13]

I 100 disagree with whomever said that sex bonds you . That is so untrue

Yes! I do too. I think healthy sex can bond you. I think yes there are hormones released that do bond... but.... I don't think it happens in all cases. Like for all the women who are raped out there, are they now bonded to their rapist? I think not. Are wives bonded to their cheating husbands? I think not. It depends on the context of which the sex happens.

 

[Queenie%Bee]

Yes! I do too. I think healthy sex can bond you. I think yes there are hormones released that do bond... but.... I don't think it happens in all cases. Like for all the women who are raped out there, are they now bonded to their rapist? I think not. Are wives bonded to their cheating husbands? I think not. It depends on the context of which the sex happens.

Right . There is little to no “bonding” in frat house sex either lol or just good ole F with a male friend . I literally felt like I COULD NOT bond post DDAY with my husband. For awhile atleast I was angry , hurt , bitter . All good now , but I believe my SO and yours have similar drives , which he thought was high , umm no just porn fueled . Mine has always been much higher , naturally. Also , his PA was 100 about medicating , not sex as well .

 

[Deleted Account]

For those of you in a relationship does having sex with your SO stop from relapsing? Is there anyone who's had sex with their SO and then looked at porn soon after? For SO how would you feel if your partner was having sex with you only because they were tempted to look at porn?

I would say no for me because of hiw I’m defining relapse now.
If I’m tempted to have sex and it's not because of my wife, then I reject it.
If i had sex with my wife because i was tempted because i was thinking about porn or some woman i saw or someone in a movie or commercial or whatever aroused me, then it would be disconnected sex and basically have all of the same elements of a relapse.
So basically it is a relapse.
Im being selfish
Im feeding my addict brain
Instead of masturbating with my hand im masturbating using my wife.
The affect on my brain is the same.
The ritual is the same. Arousal outside of my relationship, seeking orgasm to deal with emotions I don’t want and can’t handle, only caring about my needs, total emotional disconnection from my wife. Shame. Repeat cycle.

 

[Queenie%Bee]

I would say no for me because of hiw I’m defining relapse now.
If I’m tempted to have sex and it's not because of my wife, then I reject it.
If i had sex with my wife because i was tempted because i was thinking about porn or some woman i saw or someone in a movie or commercial or whatever aroused me, then it would be disconnected sex and basically have all of the same elements of a relapse.
So basically it is a relapse.
Im being selfish
Im feeding my addict brain
Instead of masturbating with my hand im masturbating using my wife.
The affect on my brain is the same.
The ritual is the same. Arousal outside of my relationship, seeking orgasm to deal with emotions I don’t want and can’t handle, only caring about my needs, total emotional disconnection from my wife. Shame. Repeat cycle.

Yasssssssssssesssss !!! Perfectly put Thor !

 

[Deleted Account]

We will have to agree to disagree on that. It's a biological fact that, especially for women, sex releases chemicals that bind you emotionally with your partner, whether they are prostitutes or your husband. That's just true, but if you dont agree, then I'm not going to argue about it. It's off topic anyway.

While I believe this biological effect to exist, I don't think that women can't have casual sex with no strings attached. Some do this all the time.

My wife has decided she wants to avoid this effect from happening with her lovers. So with her last lover, they never stayed in bed to cuddle after sex. She felt she got too attached to the lover she had before that.

There are many ways to enjoy sex and not all of them include bonding and loving.

 

[EyesWideOpen]

I said it read as an attack. And the increased aggression of your posts is continuing. You are using insults and giving instructions now. Calling people childish and telling them to grow a thicker skin. Just as Anna did not mean to make sweeping statements and to imply she thought they applied in absolutely every case, you are probably not intending for the way you argue your points to come across as an attack, or for your response to criticisms to portray you as a petulant toddler who can't accept that their own view of the world and themself is shared by everybody else. The problem is, they have and they are.

Saying that you don't mean to cause offence doesn't mean that you won't.

I didnt read anything she said as an attack. I see this thread as many differing opinions looking at the same issues in different ways. You keeping at it is just drawing it out. Get off it.

 

[Deleted Account]

While I believe this biological effect to exist, I don't think that women can't have casual sex with no strings attached. Some do this all the time.

My wife has decided she wants to avoid this effect from happening with her lovers. So with her last lover, they never stayed in bed to cuddle after sex. She felt she got too attached to the lover she had before that.

There are many ways to enjoy sex and not all of them include bonding and loving.

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I think anyone who thinks they can have sex without being bonded in some way to their sexual partner is lying to themselves or just doesn't realize how much damage they are doing to themselves. I'm completely against the idea of casual sex being safe and fun, because I know it can be damaging to so many people, whether they realize it at the time or not. So we will just have to agree to disagree there, but I appreciate your opinion.

 

[samnf1990]

I didnt read anything she said as an attack. I see this thread as many differing opinions looking at the same issues in different ways. You keeping at it is just drawing it out. Get off it.

I'll get off it, fine. I just find it frustrating that those most inclined to be critical of others are so often the quickest to react negatively to criticism.

My most important contribution to this thread is already made, and frankly I don't wish to spend any more time or energy explaining to someone through text alone why their words might be taken in a negative light. Nuance, intent and motivation is all lost, and so the tone of the text will be picked up differently by different readers. The same with this post. You can read it as if I'm fuming or quietly resigned. I just happened to read Anna's posts as polite and calm, and Castiele's as looking for an argument and wih a lack of concern for causing offence. That may not be the case, but they were written in a way that caused me to read them that way.

Well I wasted some more time wih the rest of that paragraph it seems. Well anything is better than PMO. Now to do something genuinely worthwhile with my day...

 

[Deleted Account]

For those of you in a relationship does having sex with your SO stop from relapsing? Is there anyone who's had sex with their SO and then looked at porn soon after? For SO how would you feel if your partner was having sex with you only because they were tempted to look at porn?

To sum things up, I personally think it depends on the severity of your addiction and the stage of your rebooting process. I would think most addicts will have wired their dopamine release predominantly to porn, in which case the only way for you to be able to have sex would be to look at or fantasize about porn before or during sex. Then that would indeed mean you would be using your SO as a sex toy. And it would also keep the wiring in your brain sensitized to porn. If you are able to distinguish an urge for porn from an attraction urge to be intimate with your SO, then that would be an option. The other option that was mentioned as simply having sex for physical release, - kind of like 'healthy' masturbation without porn just with your SO - would depend on consent as was mentioned, although I doubt even a recovered porn addict would ever be able to separate their now-faint wiring of dopamine to porn from just a natural physical release-reward. But that's up to you to find out. I personally also don't see being used to satisfy a biological need better than being used as a projection surface for porn fantasies. But that's just me and my need for emotional and physical intimacy. I'm sure a lot of couples enjoy both, so just make sure your SO is okay with it.

Also to back up with some science, oxytocin and vasopressin are two hormones that have been researched to be released in order to form a pair bond between sexual partners. But it is also researched that the effect or release of those hormones can be overpowered by (relationship-) stress and fear hormones, so things are not so one-dimensional.