Fantasy

Meshuga said:
I think the imagery in "Metropolis" is a good metaphor. It's also good to understand how porn actresses are far removed from their personas. I recall searching for a specific starlet, and stumbling on a jilted fan's webpage dedicated to defaming her. There were long, vitriolic rants about her appearance and performance, but the heart of it seemed to be that he saw her at a live guest panel somewhere, and she was rude. You don't get that angry at someone because you don't like the way they look, or the way they perform. It was betrayal that had him spewing all that hate.

It's also important to understand that these women have their own demons to fight as well. They are objectified, exploited, manipulated, and tortured for the pleasure of millions, and we fund it. I don't think many women think, "porn star, yeah, that's what I want to do with my life!" Despite their attractive features, I don't see many if any confident, self assured women submitting to the kind of abuse they endure on and off camera. They get threatened with withheld payment if they don't do things they previously said they weren't comfortable doing. Ex stars have talked about how they were fed cocaine, how painful the "work" was, and how hopeless they felt in a dangerous, soulless industry. The starlet is a figurehead. She's as much a victim as you; maybe more since it's your market demand that put her there.

The real enemy, the one we can fight, anyway, is our own illusions. We are dissatisfied with our real life, so we ask for a little something. So they give it, and offer a little more. So we take it, and ask for a little more and so on. It's up to you to break the cycle.
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the demons aren't a metaphor, see you are coming at it from the atheist perspective you've been taught (by demons) since birth. It's so ingrained you aren't even self aware of your own assumptions you are starting from. True, these DEMONS that you think are just human beings like you and me and just don't know any better, are really real and in charge and there's nothing supernatural about them.

I've been to strip clubs a few times and it's amazing that I've heard the same story 3 times, of the maybe 10 strippers I've talked to, they give them a big bag of money to take to someone, then one of them goes and steals teh bag of money out of their locker and then they are forced to pay it off. holy shit, what a bunch of super creeps, and you excuse them for it, that's pretty heroic. I don't think you understand what sort of super evil creeps you are dealing with an blaming yourself for. of course, they control the media so they want to create a positive image of themselves. Demons are create liars and decievers.
 
Meshuga said:
It's also important to understand that these women have their own demons to fight as well. They are objectified, exploited, manipulated, and tortured f
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yes. I have read that something like 85% of erotic dancers were sexually molested or had abusive fathers as children.
 
TheFutureMe said:
This is how you keep an animal population under control while you breed them, whatever species it is. It's also valid in the political and economical parts of modern societies. Could our addictions be symptoms of the grand order of human life (in standardized industrialized developped connected parts of the world) right now ?
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i read a story once about the bears they would farm for their bile in China. They would just lay there with a tube stuck into their gall bladder sucking their bile out. Horrific. one of them was actually pregnant and gave birth. She killed her own baby and then in fit of mad grief ran full speed into the wall of her cage and killed herself. must we wait til we are at that point before we rebel?
 
Leeuwenhoek said:
more like they love money and will do anything to get it.
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Leeuwenhoek a lot of them are tortured miserable souls - in the grasp of evil. Remember Mary Magdalene was also....
• Between 66-90% of women in the sex industry were sexually abused as children.
• Compared to the general population, women in the sex industry experience higher rates of:
Substance Abuse Issues, Rape and Violent Assault, Sexually Transmitted Diseases, Domestic Violence, Depression, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder & Dissociative Identity Disorder
http://www.beautyfromashes.org/cont...pageguid=3293b02d-f447-4afe-a0be-f120fc8471b4
 
We are not here to blame women for our addiction, neither are we here to blame demons or talk about bears or anything else that has nothing to do with sexual fantasy, or quitting porn. I am here to help porn addicts end their self destructive behavior, and to end my own. That is all. Any other tangential discussion is not welcome.
 
Thanks for sharing you insights. I'm only still making my own experiences with fantasy and your posts here seem very helpful.

Meshuga said:
However, at some point you must assume responsibility for the thought chain.
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That feels about right. Being too hard on myself, I would "punish" me for something out of my control. But being too permissive would defeat the whole purpose of reboot.
 
I just relapsed after 97 days - the fantasizing was a festering virus that finally exploded into fapping.
i wish i had read this thread day 1, but I am picking up the pieces again and the principles in this thread are going to be a key part of my reboot.
If the fantasies are still there the problem is still there.
 
Fantasizing is a very tough nut to crack, but one thing i am finding helpful is a hand written journal. It really helps you focus. I write out the fantasy in generic , almost medical terms, analyzing, say why I think i have it and refute it if necessary (if i feel its a harmful fantasy) this can also be helpful for writing out positive fantasies - ones which are motivators to act in the real world in a productive way.
 
I really thought as if you were talking about me. Fantasy has impacted the way I saw people. I always felt guilty and it was difficult to even make eye contact. No more fantasies from now on. Thanks for giving a better understanding on it.
 
A Batman said:
I really thought as if you were talking about me. Fantasy has impacted the way I saw people. I always felt guilty and it was difficult to even make eye contact. No more fantasies from now on. Thanks for giving a better understanding on it.
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Wise decision mate :)
 
I hope I am not outside the topic here, but I have a question about Parlovs dog if you can relate. You have conditioned him to drawling to the bell, but what if you ten times in a row trow a bucket of ice-water on the dog after ringing the bell ? That should reprogram it quite easy ore ? Not giving the dog the food, will probably take 10 times longer to stop the behavior. So Ice bucket challenge ish ?
 
Giving yourself a strong, Pavlovian censure in response to fantasy sounds like a good idea in theory. Certainly sounds more efficient than trying to slowly starve it out. I'm not sure it translates practically, though. If we're accessing the brute, animal parts of our minds, we need to be immediate and severe with the punishment. Not something merely unpleasant, like biting your tongue. Something powerful, like an electric shock or sting. Even then, I'm not sure this is something you can apply to yourself. You have to assess the situation, determine if the thought warrants the punishment, then choose to self inflict. This all takes time, and can be rationally circumvented. The series of choices alone could represent enough delay to render the attempt ineffective.

As an example, say you catch yourself fantasizing about a coworker. First you have to decide if it was a stray thought or a legitimate fantasy worth punishment. If you decide it is, what do you do? Wear a shock collar? Drive a pen into your leg? You have to decide whether it's worth making a public spectacle of yourself, potentially explaining why you are hurting yourself. If you delay until work is over, and make yourself do pushups or run laps, the delayed response weakens any Pavlovian benefit it might pose. Also, arguably, physical fitness or, say, praying the rosary, are good things. You don't necessarily want to associate them with either sexual fantasy specifically or bad behavior in general. You're reduced to self flagellation in a cloister, which I don't think would be effective.
Normally, the alternative would be to have a partner apply the punishment, circumventing all the choices. Friends punching one another on the shoulder for cussing, for example, has been effective for some. Unfortunately, fantasy isn't something that can be monitored by a third party.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just that these are the obstacles. You are certainly welcome to give it a shot. I would be interested in learning your results.
 
Ohhh, I would love to give my PA SO a cold hosing down, :) but I do not believe he is going to tell me he is slipping. Unfortunately I think you are right in the difficulties to shock yourself in public
I have already conditioned my cat to vanish with me reaching for my water-gun when he closing in on the bird feeder, and everybody told me you can not train a cat. I only had to hit twice before he got the message.
Somehow I think it could lessen the cravings, so the problem is to implement it in all surroundings.
I am not into giving pain, just as it does not give a cat pain with a small watergun, it is the snapping the mind out of a state you do not want. When the phone rings and you are in middle of something. An alarm going of on a parking lot.
 
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Anona said:
I hope I am not outside the topic here, but I have a question about Parlovs dog if you can relate. You have conditioned him to drawling to the bell, but what if you ten times in a row trow a bucket of ice-water on the dog after ringing the bell ? That should reprogram it quite easy ore ? Not giving the dog the food, will probably take 10 times longer to stop the behavior. So Ice bucket challenge ish ?
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Interesting thought. I'm skeptical about the idea of conditioning oneself in such a way. If there was another person whose behaviour I want to change, your logic applies. Actually treating someone according to this scheme would be called inhumane. Treating yourself in that way, doesn't sound to me like a good idea either.
Let's say it actually works and by punishing yourself you can get rid of fantasizing: I would still wonder if it's worth it. Because ... well ... inflicting pain on myself is something negative. If I regularly inflict pain on myself, I'd call that destructive (regardless of the theory behind it) and thus a behaviour that I want to get rid of.

Therefore I think there must be some sort of "healthy" way to get rid of things like fantasy, something that doesn't rely on this slightly schizophrenic idea of one person inside my head conditioning another person in my head.

I'm looking for another way here: I want to understand what's going on and therefore try to have a good model of myself and my thoughts, i.e. why I'm thinking and doing certain thinks that are not in accordance with my goals.
I want to become clear about my actual goals and draw a distinction between things I sometimes do and things that I actually want to do.
I want to stop this divergence and eventually reconcile my goals with my actual behaviour. This sometimes involves changing my goals - I don't want to put too much pressure on myself - and this certainly means trying out new habits.

Concretely, about the fantasizing, I'm looking for a solution in my state of mind. I'm usually fantasizing badly when I'm in a bad state, e.g. when I'm tired, overworked, depressed, alone, withdrawn and so on. The good news is, I don't want to be tired, overworked, depressed, alone, and withdrawn anyway so, once I can improve there, the fantasizing will probably vanish as well.
Imagine the alternative where I conditioned myself to stop fantasizing but I'm still tired, overworked, depressed, alone or withdrawn ... That doesn't sound like I would have won that much at all.
 
Anona said:
I have already conditioned my cat to vanish with me reaching for my water-gun when he closing in on the bird feeder, and everybody told me you can not train a cat. I only had to hit twice before he got the message.
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This actually demonstrates perfectly why it doesn't repair the undesired behavior. The cat is not trained to stay away from the feeder; it is trained to avoid the water gun. Given the chance, the cat would still stalk the bird feeder. Its 'addiction' to birds is not erased, it just knows how to prevent a wet surprise. Translated to porn addiction, he'd just find a better way to conceal the addiction.

Breaking addiction, to porn, to fantasy, to sex, etc., is something an addict must want themselves. They can't be coerced into it.
 
Meshuga said:
Giving yourself a strong, Pavlovian censure in response to fantasy sounds like a good idea in theory. Certainly sounds more efficient than trying to slowly starve it out. I'm not sure it translates practically, though.
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I am reading "brain lock" about OCDs and many people who, for example, tried the 'rubber band snap' just ended up with sore wrists..i know fantasy is NOT OCD, but the model for purging unwanted thoughts may help:
Step 1: Relabel
Step 2: Reattribute
Step 3: Refocus
Step 4: Revalue
 
Meshuga said:
This actually demonstrates perfectly why it doesn't repair the undesired behavior. The cat is not trained to stay away from the feeder; it is trained to avoid the water gun. Given the chance, the cat would still stalk the bird feeder. Its 'addiction' to birds is not erased, it just knows how to prevent a wet surprise. Translated to porn addiction, he'd just find a better way to conceal the addiction.

Breaking addiction, to porn, to fantasy, to sex, etc., is something an addict must want themselves. They can't be coerced into it.
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But.... What if you made him fear the bird feeder?

The way to make any change stick is change your subconscious, so that you don't have to fight it.. However you do it, the only way you make any real lasting change is to reprogram your subconscious

I have experimented with various ways to use Pavlovian conditioning. Both rewards and pain.

It doesn't always have to be a sudden reward or sudden pain. I use a bit of a combination of pain avoidance and the promise of reward.

On the pain side, I ponder frequently about all that PMO has cost, what it will cost, all the negative effects. This is kind of like constantly thinking about how smoking can lead to lung cancer. It gradually sinks into your subconscious so that you fear smoking because of the ill effects. You can train your subconscious to fear smoking, even though you have not yet died from lung cancer.

It is slowly starting to work. I now see a sexy Ad and my automatic instantaneous response is to look away quickly.... I don't even have to try. It doesn't feel like a fight, my subconscious now wants to look away

Now if someone would have tasered to me every time I looked at an ad, that would've worked quicker. But just thinking about it seemed to work, just more slowly.

Anthony Robbins calls this asking pain associating questions. If you have a behavior you want to stop, ask yourself what has this cost me, what will it cost me, and really really think about the answers, think about them a lot

On the reward side… What I do is give myself a random chance for a reward every time I reach a certain milestone. If I go one week without clicking on any sexy ads or news articles, are use random.org to give myself a 20% chance of a new album download. If I go one full week without fantasizing to the point an erection, I give myself a chance for another prize.

And if I go one full month without looking at porn or a porn substitute (sexy YouTube' etc), I give myself a 10% chance for a piece of a large treat. My current one is a 10% chance of earning one quarter of a new dirtbike...... So I need to get that one four times.
 
This post was very useful to me, thanks alot for this. I've noticed that the time after waking up is the most tempting period to fantasize. What I like to do if I notice myself beginning to fantasize about sex/porn is to redirect my thoughts onto something else (ie. things I need to do, visualizing natural landscapes etc.). Otherwise, I'd say just getting out of the house helps alot. Good luck to everyone on the journey.
 
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