Fapping to imagination

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by Mike walker, Sep 17, 2015.

  1. Mike walker

    Mike walker Fapstronaut

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    Hello everyone,

    I recently broke my streak of no fapping, however I did it by using strictly my imagaination without any visual stimulus. Just wondering, what is everyone's take on fapping without porn. I know it is bad, but I can't fully justify it to myself. Any help would be appreciated.

    Mike
     
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  2. Bumpeh

    Bumpeh Fapstronaut

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    In the end, it's all dependent on the specific person and their specific goals. Some people choose to abstain only from Porn, some choose to completely abstain from PMO, and some choose to completely abstain from ALL sexual releases.

    In my opinion, for my goals specifically and for anyone who really sees this PMO addiction as a problem, masturbation to orgasm without porn is a no-no. I've been doing some reading about addiction and pornography addiction specifically, and I remember reading something saying that the brain can't differentiate certain things, like masturbating without porn and masturbating with porn, so when it comes to your brain healing, even orgasm without pornography can harm that process. But again, it has a lot to do with the individual person I think, and their own personal goals. Also, masturbation to orgasm can lead to watching pornography or other more undesirable things, not always, but I've heard of people relapsing and binging a lot on porn.

    I think if anyone wants to truly quit this addiction, they should abstain from PMO entirely for a while to allow their brain to heal, then maybe at a later point they can decided whether masturbation to orgasm without porn is okay. Personally, I think abstaining from PMO entirely is the best route, therein making any kind of sexual interaction with a partner more meaningful.

    Don't beat yourself up if you have been about giving in, I know I did that the first time I gave in when I signed up for this site. You can do it, just keep pushing forward and reminding yourself of the benefits. Good luck!
     
  3. Brasileiro

    Brasileiro Fapstronaut

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    Dude, i think it's ok. What if there were a girl with you? What if it was her hands, not yours? I guess that we think too much about what is wrong... It's good to cum, to fuck, just have fun :)
     
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  4. SarcasmThatsOriginal

    SarcasmThatsOriginal New Fapstronaut

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    I actually think it is fine. When you're watching porn on a screen, you're acting upon two people having sex, etc. When you're using your imagination, you're using your own sexuality, not suggestions i.e. porn.

    It is up to you. Using your imagination seems healthy to me. But if it is hurting your recovery maybe you should avoid it.
     
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  5. You probably know this, but everything depends on a person's goals and what they want in life.

    Masturbation in itself, if not abused, is not all that bad in my opinion. It's bad when artificial stimulation is associated with it, be it from pixels on a screen, pages on a book or the memories of your mind. Typically, your imagination and fantasies are sourced from the porn you have consumed so it's not as good as it may sound. Porn and masturbation are a shallow representation of sexuality and actual sex, so it's not very appropriate to compare the two.

    Yes, masturbation without anything is not that evil. Don't get me wrong though, I personally do not want to regularly masturbate ever again after I reboot. Sure, I can't guarantee that I won't touch my junk for the rest of my life (I'm 15 right now) but I do not want to regularly masturbate like before because it's only gonna make the risk of porn coming back to my life higher, and the drawbacks like drained energy levels will also affect me more.

    I'm trying to master sexual transmutation, which is utilizing the sexual energy built up for other aspects of life in a positive way, so masturbation will be limited to the minimum as I continue to improve my lifestyle. Good luck man!
     
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  6. Xwin

    Xwin Fapstronaut

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    I think that actually it's a good way to fight off urges. Instead of watching p, have an old-school m and hence not overstimulate your brain with visuals.
     
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  7. Hi Mike. @Mike walker

    I saw this post randomly. I went back and read your previous posts. You have been here since August 22, 2015 and have posted 20 times. Your age, which is irrelevant, is probably between 25 and 31; your profile says 31, your initial post says 25. It really does not matter, though if you are 31 I think the clock is ticking on you beating this problem. It's time. In at least one of your posts you acknowledge you are addicted. Your initial post indicates you wish to go hard mode 125 days. In the time you have been here your posts seem to indicate you have "relapsed" at least 4 times. You have a girlfriend, and you are worried about her finding out about the problem you have, which is a common concern with many here.

    On 9/8/15 you posted:

    Hello...Day 0. Stress, tiredness, sickness and loss of self control has made me relapse. i'm going to lower my expectations. I am now not going to fap for 30 days. October 6th. I will not look at Porn, youtube videos, pretty girls on facebook, nothing. I will not have an organsm with anyone but my girlfriend, and I will not picture anyone else with her. Finally, I will not masterbate or touch any part of myself. Journey starts right now and Day 1 is tomorrow!

    So, you ask for advice. My advice is get back to basics. You understand you have a problem. But what I don't see is an answer to the question that every successful rebooter first asks: What is my purpose in quitting? So, why are you quitting? Only you can answer that. Gary Wilson of YBOP asks the question, why would any porn loving guy quit? If there were not some adverse effect on your life you would not quit, most of us would not. So, ask and answer the question, why quit?

    Also, while I see a genuine desire to quit, I don't see a lot of discussion about what is going on in your brain. Gabe Deem of Rebootnation says the first thing in overcoming our problem is to Ged Educated. I see a lot of guys show up here and proclaim "I am quitting", (sound familiar?), but without knowing and understanding what you are quitting, quitting is almost impossible. Though this problem looks like a sexual problem, a problem below the belt, it is actually a brain problem, 100%. It is about dopamine addiction. We love that dopamine high that artificial sexual stimulation gives us. You ask about imagination v. visual stimulation, but once you understand the mechanics of dopamine addiction you will see both are "artificial sexual stimulation," meaning both are non sexual means of obtaining a dopamine rush. It you are not getting off with a real, live, breathing, woman, with a pulse, skin to skin, it is not reality, not real sex, it is artificial sexual stimulation. Mike, what you do to yourself on the other side of the hard 90 is of course your business, but to reboot, you have to get at least 90 days in while avoiding artificial sexual stimulation. After that, rebooted, if you want to go back to the problem, it is a choice, not a compulsion. I know your question will be "can I still have sex with my GF during the reboot?" Yes, it is not optimal, but the fact you can still have sex is a hopeful sign for you. Many guys only get here after their junk quits working. But, think of only her during sex, don't let porn memories creep in during sex.

    I want you to watch this (skip ad):



    Watch it, watch it again while taking notes, watch it again. Take time to understand the "why" of the addiction. It is important. Understand the mechanics of the addiction. Once you do then quitting becomes doable. Difficult still, but doable.

    I hope this helps.

    Much love.

    Will I AM.
     
  8. Calm

    Calm Fapstronaut

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    I prefer to view something like masturbation as not being good or bad, but rather from the view of being skillful or unskillful.

    I mean some people find it hard to imagine that masturbating or fapping is downright bad or evil. Personally I view it as a waste of energy and time. Plain and simple. A very unskillful act that becomes a habit more often than not which leads back to PMO, don't lie to yourself.

    Sexual transmutation on the other hand is downright skillful. Skillful in the sense that it will lead you to great heights in life and bring you alot of true happiness. Much deeper satisfaction than tuggin on your willy for a hit of dopamine, wouldn't ya say @Mike walker?

    In that sense ya masturbation regardless of whether erotic stimuli is involved is just bad lol.

    Do you wanna fail at life? Or do you want to win? Maybe winning doesn't mean being super successful financially but also could be having incredibly rewarding and rich relationships with other people and perhaps reaching some great spiritual heights in this very life. Everybody is after their own idea of success after all.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2015
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  9. Mike walker

    Mike walker Fapstronaut

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    Hey everyone, thanks for the replys, this is incredible! Bumpeh, any addition reading advice you would give? Will I am, amazing post dude. I really appreciate you doing the research on me, and you're right, I need to truely figure out my "why". I've seen that Ted Talk before, the guy is extremely knowledgeable, but I will certainly watch it again. I am also 25 years old.
     
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  10. OldSkoolLover

    OldSkoolLover Fapstronaut

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    I recently read an article which said MO isn't ideal but if you really need to, no more than 5 times a month if you are rebooting. I MO the other night with my imagination (second time since my rebooting began 24 days ago) and to be honest, it felt like a complete waste of time afterwards. Good luck with it all though, I guess you will need to see what best suits you.
     
  11. iwillgrowstrong

    iwillgrowstrong Fapstronaut

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    Can you MO without anything? To me it always brings my imagination to work. When I think of a bicycle I feel like I could M forever, but when I begin to think about how it was with my ex or what would I do with that waitress I quickly come back to the O path. So is it actually that different from watching P? It's like you're watching a video, but projected by your brain not the computer. I prefer to not fool myself.
     
  12. Master of chastity

    Master of chastity Fapstronaut

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    M without P is 100% better , no doubt about that. I dont agree with the notion that its the same because your brain cant tell the difference. can your imagination really go hours from clip to clip with different sound bits ?? dont fool yourself its different!

    having said that, i dont recommend MO without P either .. after you have done it you will definetly be dissapointed. its an energy vampire , period.

    If you wanna have an O do it with your wife (vaginal, oral, hands, who cares) - it has got to be with your significant other (who you would theoretically have kids with)
     
  13. nfprogress

    nfprogress Fapstronaut

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    I agree with the other posters.

    We know the brain can rewire itself, but the neuroscience behind it is not perfectly understood. If you M with no O, there is a good chance that you go through the same motions you might have gone through watching porn as well. Are there differences? Of course there are, but if you are doing something like a reboot, why chance it? The way you M is likely to be very similar in physical motion to way you might M watching porn (many of us guys just aren't that imaginative with our physical patterns of movement down there). It is a part of an existing habit: cue(P)->routine(PM)->reward(O)

    Anything that approximates edging will likely bring you very close to O by definition. At that point you are not only simulating the M portion of PMO but you are also simulating most of the O except for the grand finale. I'd also wager that your imagination has both video content and audio content that can be similar to P. The audio content is her voice that you hear in your head. Her body is there too along with anything else you allow into your imagination. That can be fairly rich and vivid if you want. I can't say if the brain differentiates or not. So by the conservative principle, it might as well not be able to differentiate.

    If you really want to wire yourself to your wife/gf, definitely make her your only source. You may not know how your brain rewires itself, but you can choose what it rewires itself to. For some people that may be long-term abstinence with the idea of channeling sexual energy to other non-sexual life goals. For others the rewire gets pushed into the dating world where men use the extra sexual energy to pursue women they don't currently know. For others, it is their SO/Wife. For others still, MO may be the best long term option assuming you are no longer interested in P. The transmutation is the most interesting idea for me yet and it seems well worth exploring.
     
  14. Bumpeh

    Bumpeh Fapstronaut

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    My only other advice to you Mike, would be to stay strong. Try to find an Accountability Partner if you can, and start distracting yourself with more beneficial things. Pick up some hobbies, maybe model trains or rockets, or web design, or... Anything really that's beneficial! If you're religious, praying is a good way to reaffirm your resolve and give you more strength. If not, I'd suggest creating some kind of higher power in your life(it doesn't have to be a God, but something you can hold yourself accountable to) and investing faith in that. Faith can go a long way.

    And if you ever feel like giving in, feel like the urges are too strong, just ride it out the best you can. Walk away if need be, take a breath of fresh air, do some exercise to spend that extra energy, read a book. Do anything you can to get away until the urge disappears. Most of the time, the urges don't last too long, so you just have to stay strong!
     
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  15. nomo

    nomo Fapstronaut

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    Great question, and one I have wondered about also. My take is that PMO is horrible, MO is alright in moderation - the huge debate is what is moderation? That's an individual's call. I used to O every night without fail since I was 13-years-old. Many times MO'ing alone, many times having sex with a women.

    The problem for me is that I liked to PMO all the time including during work. PMO was an escape from boredom or stress. When I would MO it was almost 100% at night in bed, trying to help me fall into a deeper sleep. The crazy part is that I almost always use my imagination when I have an O, even when I'm having sex with someone. I've have had many long-term girlfriends and now I have a wife, but I like to use my imagination to "intensify" the experience.

    Lately I have been able to avoid MO and I don't have a desire to do it daily. I'm saving myself for when I'm having sex with my wife. It feels better to save myself for her and not to be dependent on MO, but my ultimate goal is to quit viewing Porn. If I can quit porn, I think the MO or not to MO will take care of itself. The real problem is PMO.

    Stay strong, don't PMO today.
     
  16. Son_of_Iroquois

    Son_of_Iroquois Fapstronaut

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    My opinion: if you are in danger of using P, fallback to the imagination. It is an acceptable compromise against relapse.

    Benefits of the imagination:
    • completely free
    • more "natural", doesn't fill your mind with external imagery
    • it's over relatively quickly (no hours and hours of brain destroying P)
    • isn't nearly as addictive or habit forming
    • can encourage positive sexual fantasies and a positive sexual self image
    • the sexual energy is diminished but only slightly and in a natural way, not like P use, which all but consumes every ounce of it
    In my experience, I have been completely immersed in P and feel there is no way out. I then made it ok to M to my imagination. Within about one week my sexual energy level was gaining a lot of power and momentum and continuing to intensify. After a week I had no more impulse to look at P. Ultimately I believe M to imagination is a good compromise level between the extremes of complete abstinence and relapse.
     

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