God and the Laws of logic.

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Premise 1: God is all-powerful

    Premise 2: Thus, if God is all-powerful then He should be able to do anything

    Premise 3: It is claimed however that God can only do things that are logically possible and that He only acts within the laws of logic

    Premise 4: Thus, it follows from the previous premise that God cannot transcend the laws of logic and He must necessarily act within the laws of logic

    Premise 5: Therefore God cannot create anything that's illogical or do anything that's not logically possible eg. create a married bachelor

    Conclusion: Thus if one accepts all these premises, then it logically follows that God is not omnipotent since He is subject to the laws of logic that either He created Himself or they are laws that exist independent of Him that He didn't create.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  2. God also says that the human mind cant and will never be able to comprehend His will and powers. That's enough to me. He already did things that are humanly impossible ( resurrection, immaculate birth).
     
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  3. IAmLegion

    IAmLegion Fapstronaut

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    Yep.

    Where did you get premise 3 from bro? First i'm hearing of it actually.
     
  4. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Of course He can do things that are humanly impossible, I never said that He couldn't do things that are not humanly possible. As the Bible passage states, "What is impossible with man, is possible with God". My argument is based on what theists have told me about God so that's how I'm comprehending His powers. Also if no one can comprehend God's will and powers, then how can theists claim to know the nature of God's powers like omniscience or His atemporality (timelessness) and how can some claim to speak for God like pastors and prophets? This is not an attack on God, I just have an objection to His omnipotence.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
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  5. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    That's what theists say about the nature of God's omnipotence. They say that God can only do things that are logically possible and that He can't do things that are illogical like creating a married bachelor.
     
  6. IAmLegion

    IAmLegion Fapstronaut

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    Exactly! You're 100% on mark here but i think you're confusing where the issue lies. See, the problem is in the portrayal and not the actual entity. It remains a fact that no English translation of the Bible (you used a Biblical quote so i'll give a similar counter) is fully accurate. Hebrew was the original language used for the most part and English translations just aren't fully on mark. The same issue is with the Geeta, which was written in Sanskrit but translated to Hindi and subsequently English. Therefore for anyone to say they convey the mesaage of God is technically incorrect. They are portraying either their opinion or mass opinion. Religion has no inconsistencies because it can never be proven wrong. All modern religion stems from books or "prophets".

    Your true religion is what you believe in. Hence, all arguments are applied to the interpretation and not the source per say. Get my point? :D

    And the interpretation (as denoted by the 5 premises) is certainly illogical. Try a different approach maybe?
     
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  7. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Well I'm going based on what theists tell me. They tell me that their interpretation is correct, so I go on what they say.
     
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  8. Future role model

    Future role model Fapstronaut

    Bro, from your posts(evolution, contradictions in Bible, and now this) I can see that you seem to be confused and lost, and it looks like your searching for some answer. I just want to tell you that you're not alone in this. I'm also confused, I used to read Bible that was translated by some cult(nothing against them, just some people told me that their translation is inaccurate) and I used to read books by some Adventists in which they were persuading me to become Adventist(also nothing against Adventists). There are so many translations of Bible, there are so many fights and contradictions between religious people, I'm so confused and don't know who I should trust. I'm Orthodox Christian from birth(my whole country is) and I'm scared to do something against my religion, but yet I can't find answers because everybody is saying different things. I'm scared of cults... Had friend who was part of the cult and committed suicide. Sometimes I have "religious crisis" and I seriously start questioning the existence of God. It's impossible to say which religion is the right one, or which cult is the right. I'm just trying to love God and let him guide me, and I can advice you to do the same. Questioning only made things worse for me, I got so confused, I even don't know which Bible translation I should read...
     
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  9. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    The guy who wrote this article seems to be atheist BTW and He seemed to be arguing against theism. But anyway, even though he made some good points, he is presupposing that logic itself is true eg. he believes that his statements are logical and coherent, so in trying to argue against the importance of logic he himself presupposes that logic is true.
     
  10. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    I'm sorry to hear about your friend and what's going with you. We're all in this search for truth together. I'm also confused about the Bible and which denomination is correct and stuff. Hopefully we'll figure things out. I think it's important to always question everything. Don't ever stop asking questions... Some of mankind's greatest inventions came through people questioning the status quo. I'm here if you need anything, just message me if you want, I'll try to help.
     
  11. IAmLegion

    IAmLegion Fapstronaut

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    Well said! That's the mindset to success :)
     
  12. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    What is this cult your talking about? were you a Jehovah's witness at one point?
     
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  13. truthseeker17

    truthseeker17 Fapstronaut

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    LOL where did you get it that God is bound to your tiny "logical" mind/brain??

    God has power to do whatever He wants and power over ALL the things. His command is only when He intends a thing that He says to it, "Be," and it is. surah Yasien : 36:82

    He is not bound to time, place or any other thing. He is not bounded to creation. Free is He of that which is falsely attritibuted to Him. He is truely Unique. NOTHING is like Him. He is The One, The First and The Last. He is the Most knowing and all hearing. He sees and hears all things. He is The King of kings. Nothing was before Him and Nothing is after Him. He is the everliving without a beginning and a end. He is The Praised One and all Powerful. He is Kind and merciful. He is most appreciative(Al shakur) and loving(al wadud). He is the forgiving one and the source of mercy. Perfect are His attributes. Perfect is He without a flaw. He is your and mine God whether you believe it or not(in this world). After your death you surely will see and witness His Kingdom and dominion.
     
  14. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Can the Muslim God create a married bachelor or a squared circle? Because according to Christianity, God can't create a married bachelor or a squared circle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  15. IAmLegion

    IAmLegion Fapstronaut

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    Speak with some dignity. Leave that talk for the people who taught you manners. This conversation came to an end long before you chimed in.

    Why are you only quoting one religion? We're talking about God in general here, not just a specific religion. The OP's intent was to clarify what he thought to be a (BIBLICALLY originating) paradox.
    Quoting religious texts at him is rather pointless anyway seeing that the OP is trying to decide as to whether or not to validate God. Your answer is invalid.

    Answer the question at hand instead of trying to reinforce a single religious sect.

    @Brokenman123 is my interpretation of your intent correct? If it is, then this post holds ground. Otherwise, take it with a grain of salt.
     
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  16. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Yeah, but the idea of God I'm mainly talking about is the biblical concept of God.
     
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  17. Nightbynight

    Nightbynight Fapstronaut

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    If God is behind all creation then all creation and its effects are made by him with knowing, Including all religions.
    I believe all religions connect with God at least partialy but there is clearly human inadequacy in every religious act and text. Prophets speak to god through the same connection God has with every man. However no human lense is pure and we all have our inner discrepancies and lack of available perspective. God is all, you dont need a book to believe in him or to become a good person or the best version of yourself. But if it helps to use a religion as a guide why not. It seems to me that many of the people that are unsure of which religion to follow are worried not only because they might miss out on truth but for the fear of being punished in hell. Fear clouds judgement and should not be what drives your search. God has angels for blind faith, humans often learn the right way only after experiencing the wrong.

    On the topic of logic and how it relates to God I've discussed it in depth in a thread I'll link below. Please feel free to chime in all views are welcome.

    https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.p...ock-that-he-can-not-lift.187624/#post-1606004
     
  18. winterjay

    winterjay Fapstronaut

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    Brokenman, you of the few persons in this forums who seem to have a decent grasp on logic. This forum is filled with so much wishful thinking and sometimes careless inconsistency.
     
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  19. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Let's think about this for a moment:
    1) why would God create or at least allow for there to be separate religions? Is He trying to confuse all of humanity? If there is one true religion why doesn't God point people towards it instead of having people confused?
    2) Why are there discrepancies in all these religions in the first place, if God created them and God is perfect?
    3) How did our human lenses become impure? If God created us, according to your logic, then He created humans impure? And how can humans get back to seeing through a pure lense again?
    4) why are angels there for blind faith? Is God insecure that angels wouldn't believe in Him and love Him, so He created them to be like robots?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018

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