Hell

For Fapstronauts who are disciples of Christ

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  1. Following what @SolitaryScribe said on the Billy Graham thread I thought I'd start a discussion on hell.

    What is hell?
    Do you believe in eternal conscious torment, annihilation or universalism?
    If a Christian dies while looking at porn will they go to hell?
     
  2. Run_Like_Joseph_Did

    Run_Like_Joseph_Did Fapstronaut

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    Hell is, in the most fundamental sense, complete and total absence from God. Not to say that he is not their, because He is omnipresent. What I mean is that you will have no relationship, no communication, no felling of presence of God with you. When one goes to hell, it means that they have rejected Christ and have desired to live without God(John 9:41). As the Bible teaches, our salvation is not depended of our own accomplishment. The only sin that sends us to Hell is the sincere rejection of God's love and grace. We are saved by a genuine faith in Christ not by are own personal failures do to temptation. Satan is not in Hell right now(job 1:6-7). He will be put their when Christ comes back(Revelation 20:10) and right now he looks for those who he can take with him.
     
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  3. The Wrestler

    The Wrestler Fapstronaut

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    Porn is not a salvation issue.
    An underlying hardness of heart could be.
    Glad I'm not the judge.
     
  4. Timeon

    Timeon Fapstronaut

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    Romans 8:38-39
    And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
     
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  5. Run_Like_Joseph_Did

    Run_Like_Joseph_Did Fapstronaut

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    p
    praise be
     
  6. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Yes you are right. But we are the ones who reject that love. God will never force us to love him back
     
  7. Timeon

    Timeon Fapstronaut

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    agree. that is why we have a choice because we can't force anyone to love us.
     
  8. Fanchman

    Fanchman Fapstronaut

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    There are two sides in a relationship, even with our Creator.
    And He has given us a choice whether we want a relationship with Him or not.
    He would obviously prefer that we all pursue Him, but, again, it's our choice.
    For us, that means "crucifying the flesh" so that we can live in the Spirit!
     
  9. Indyguy

    Indyguy Fapstronaut

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    The love of God is greater than the love of man. It is not fickle or unwavering. For me, a point of weakness and sin like PMO is compared to me catching my kid's hand in the cookie jar. As a parent, am I going to cease to love my kid and pitch him out of my house because of it? Of course not. How much greater is the love of God for us? I am faithful that God is more concerned with our heart. If we are seeking Him and making an effort to be more Christlike, He is quick to forgive.

    That being said, you can pick and choose verses from the Bible to drive any point you like. But God over time has always been there when His people have turned to Him. Have faith and strive to be what He wants to make you into.
     
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  10. Fanchman

    Fanchman Fapstronaut

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    Right, but if that hand keeps getting caught in the cookie jar over and over again, that will have consequences. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love us. We get rebuked because he DOES love us. If your child at some point chooses to live a bad lifestyle and turn away from you, despite your best intentions as a parent, that child will have to learn from his/her mistakes, of course as a parent, we are always ready to receive that child in our arms. It's the same with the Lord and us.
     
  11. Indyguy

    Indyguy Fapstronaut

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    I guess I could see it one of two ways. Is it God actively punishing you, or is what befalls you the natural consequence of willfully turning away from God? I tend toward the latter, because historically speaking, I don't believe that God actively asserted his will on the Assyrians or Babylonians to conquer Israel and Judah. I think it was the natural result of turning away from Him. I used to believe the first way and found myself to be a very unhappy person as a result. I would hurl profanities at a crazy driver and then, a few minutes later, my Dr Pepper would spill and I would see it as God punishing me. Now, instead, I strive toward what God wants for me to be in order to please Him, not out of a fear of punishment.
     
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  12. Fanchman

    Fanchman Fapstronaut

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    Thanks, Indyguy, that is great insight, actually, and I guess I would tend to agree with that analogy. I often wonder about when the Lord acts on things and when He just allows things to happen.
    What I can tell you from my own struggle, is that the porn addiction has negatively affected my life in a lot of different ways, especially relationships.
    So, either way, our actions have consequences, but thanks to God that He is merciful!
     
  13. cesare_undici

    cesare_undici Fapstronaut

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    what do you understand under "flesh"?
     
  14. What a great excerpt! Very positive
     
  15. Fanchman

    Fanchman Fapstronaut

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    The physical aspect of human beings, which distinguishes them from God and is therefore frequently used in the NT as a symbol of human sinful nature in contrast with God’s perfection.
     
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  16. There is no place that is void of God's presence. David said in psalm, that even if he would go to the land of the dead God is there. Hell won't be absence of God, but remorse of wasted love that will come from universal understanding. All knees will bow before Him.

    I believe, based on the Bible, that the lost souls will be destroyed in Hell, and will be no more of them. The fiery place full of devils tormenting people isn't from the Scripture, it's from dark ages. Out of respect to the creation God will let people go with the path they chose. He said that there is good and evil, and also choose good, so that you would live. Not, choose good so that you would live in heaven as opposed to a semi-alive state of continous torment of eternal fire and despair.

    From philosophical point of view if there's eternal place that is apart from God, and stands for itself we've got kind of a new lesser god (eternal, not God, selfsustaining). And also what would it say about God or us if there were people trapped in such place and we were to enjoy the feast of the Lamb? It's not just to make someone pay with the whole eternity for a 120 years on earth.

    I opposed this view in the beginning, but than I thought about it and read the Bible just with this idea in head to check if it has any basis in text. And it so does!

    Augustine of Hippo said to have love and than do just whatever. I think that what we must do to secure our future fate (and present) is to fall in love with God. After submiting all our will, all our affection to the One we can meet Him and it changes us forever. Just one such moment is a life changer, and I see that we must live in such moment all day long. Open your heart to Jesus, to His love and His will and wait for His presence. Then you've got it all.

    You don't look for Him afterwards because of fear of punishment, but because you're in love. Because you're intrigued by Him.

    This Love is pure heaven for me.
     
  17. alansthebest

    alansthebest Fapstronaut

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    Revelation 21:8
    But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.
     
  18. As you've said it, this is the second death.

    Jesus said not to be afraid of those who can destroy your body, but be afraid of the one that can destroy your body and the soul in hell.
     
  19. Run_Like_Joseph_Did

    Run_Like_Joseph_Did Fapstronaut

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    The scriptures are clear: Revelation 14: 6-12
    6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

    8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

    9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

    Matthew 25: 31-46 is even clearer
    31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

    34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

    37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

    40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

    41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

    44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

    45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

    46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
     
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  20. Thank you for taking the time to read what I wrote.

    I am sorry to tell you, that when you say that the scriptures are clear, you mean that you're clear what scriptures tell in this topic. If scriptures would be clear as you say it is I and lots lots of people around the globe wouldn't hold this view about hell. There are scholars better than I who do. Let me now refer to pointed out passages.

    "They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name"

    Read again and ask yourself, do you think that the holy angels and Jesus would stand there with them this whole eternity while they're suffering? This passage is one that makes me more sure. In the same presence we who love God are happy, at peace and forever changed in His image, people who chose beast would be tormented with burning sulfur - wouldn't the remorse be biger punishment? Like - WHAT HAVE I DONE!?

    I wouldn't say that the second mentioned text is clearer. If you are banished from some country forever it doesn't mean you have to live forever, does it? It means that you are never to enter the country again. You could ask, what about us with God, would we also die in the next world? And I would say, we were promised eternal life.

    I will give you some more verses to ponder on. John 15, especially verse 6.
    "6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

    Mt 3:10-12,
    "10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

    What is unquenchable - the fire or the chaff?

    Mt 13:24-30
    "29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”"
    Luke 13:6-9

    Luke 12:58-59
    "58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

    If the torment is eternal what would it mean to pay the last penny? Would you like me to give more of those verses? There's a lot.

    In the Old Testament when people say something about the land of the dead they call it cold, dark place, where nothing happenes, and noone can call to God or do anything. It's nothingness, it's death.

    There are better eternal-torment verses, and before you'd find them I'd like to tell you a thing or two on eternity in ancient times. This word holds several meanings. 1)The meaning that we all understand today, infinit spand of time 2) time of ruling of a king 3) current era of time 4) perfection (completeness)

    Please read also Juda 7, where is this eternal fire? There's no fire, just the Dead Sea at this place. It's not that Sodoma and Gomora burn forever, but consequences are eternal.

    It makes so much more sens this way. There was no eternal soul idea in the Old Testament, and only the add-on of Platonic thought make it's appearence in NT. If we would think like ancient Semits and read (or as I believe wright) NT we wouldn't see it as later folks -influenced by Platon- did. Human being is made mortal, and would live forever only because of God's grace and ongoing lifegiving act, and not of God-given eternity of the soul. Furthermore there will be bodies in renewed creation, not just souls. That's the act of resurrection. It is needed so that the life could exist.
     

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