HOCD, tranny, sissy explained - PMO as a bisexual/homosexual act

Discussion in 'Problematic Sexual Behavior' started by ultrafabber, Dec 13, 2019.

  1. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Abstinence does have it's merits, perhaps i worded my post incorrectly. After longer periods of abstinence one may start to get insight into his behaviors and get nauseated by them. The problem is relapsing to them is likely to strengthen them and i would expect this insight appears in the case of more deviant behaviors (sissy/tranny/cuckold/gay) stuff, not your regular "straight" porn and your regular "jerking off". I have yet to read a post from someone that ended up finding "straight" porn or jerking off abnormal.
     
  2. Neurostudent

    Neurostudent Fapstronaut

    Pretty much everything you're saying is correct. You've clearly done a lot of research on associative learning, but again, you're not unlearning anything. That is an impossibility in the natural world. The only way to unlearn something would be to literally erase the neurological connections responsible for the learned behaviour. Once you have made an association it is always there. You even admit yourself that you are replacing the association. That is not unlearning. Unlearning implies that you are erasing what has been learned and that is simply not supported by the current body of evidence.

    Let's say you get a rat to associate a red light with an aversive stimulus such as a shock. Then, you begin to display the red light in conjunction with a food reward rather than the shock. Over time the rat reacts to the red light exactly as if it had never been associated with the shock and always associated with food. However, if the rat is exposed to the shock without the red light, the association between red light and shock will be reinstated. That is, if you display the red light after the exposure to shock only, the rat will have the fear response and not expect food. This is only possible if the connections responsible for red light -> shock still remained. Thus, unlearning has not occurred, even with the red light -> food association. All that is happened is that the red light -> shock association is now the predominant association again.

    Also, I would recommend against encouraging porn addicts to continue using porn in order to remove certain associations. The best way to remove these associations is a period of abstinence, followed by sexual experience exclusive to real life partners. The use of porn is the problem regardless of who is in the video. The cure for porn addiction is real life intimacy.

    It's great talking to someone who knows there shit.
     
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  3. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    When i say unlearning i mean it in a context of brain/thought logical structure, not on a neural level. That's why i said it is effectively unlearned, not just unlearned. Behavior is the sum of complex logical associations, not just the result of a specific neural connection. This situation is even stronger when both ends of the behavior are tied to something else.

    In the case of the rat, only one end is recalibrated and that is the red light association but not the shock association. The shock association would have to be recalibrated too for a more efficient "unlearning". That means the rat would have to be shocked again, multiple times, with another type of light or something else. That way both ends of the association are addressed. That's why in the case of pmo i suggested a multi-directional approach.

    Abstinence does not remove associations or removes them extremely slowly and only if another association is present (like real life partners but even that is debatable). That's why people relapse and when they relapse they binge. With abstinence only the only thing you're getting good at is avoidance. With exposure you get good at resisting the actual stimuli and also recalibrate the association.

    Let's consider a guy who does abstinence for 1 week, then relapses to the same type of content and binges (this is the most common scenario and the cutoff for relapse is between 1 week and two weeks). By relapsing he actually strengthens the association because he just got a randomized reward (he couldn't tell when he was going to relapse, it was not planned) and because he got a very powerful reward (binge). The binge itself is also a randomized event because each session is not planned in advance. And we know that random rewards are the most potent when it comes to wiring behavior. This guy then picks himself up and tries harder, getting 2 weeks and then binging. That's another point on random rewards and so on. While yes, ideally he would go 90 days abstinence and this would probably extinguish the behavior somewhat, that is an ideal situation that does not happen in real life when it comes to addictions and especially when it comes to porn addiction. I'm just estimating here but i don't think that even 1% of people trying nofap did 90 days the first time or did 45 then 90. The relapse rate is extremely high, even for people that are over 90 days, even over 180 days.

    When i am having this discussion i often use the example of alcoholism. How do i know i am not an alcoholic? First and foremost because i do not crave alcohol and then because i can resist alcohol. I can have a liquor stash on my desk next to me and not give a f about it, i can go to a store and i feel no craving to buy alcohol. But i also drink alcohol, it's just that i drink it very irregularly and only when i feel like it. Even if i feel like drinking, i can always say no and not drink. Doing so is effortless. However let's say i have a week when i drink every other day. And let's say there's an alcoholic that did not drink at all that week. Does that mean he is no longer an alcoholic and i am? No, because he had cravings that week and even if he hadn't, he had to stay away from alcohol and not touch it, lest he'd relapse. While i can go on and not drink alcohol for a month while sitting next to drinks.

    When you run away from alcohol or porn or any other addiction you're not addressing the addiction you're just ignoring it. You are not developing ways to make it go away, you're just getting good at running away from it. And since the association is not addressed it will always be there. With abstinence you're essentially saying "i love this (pmo) but i am not going to do it".
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2020
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  4. Neurostudent

    Neurostudent Fapstronaut

    Our disagreement then, is on the definition of the term, "unlearning." Unlearning as defined within the field of Psychology is considered an impossibility. That's the issue that I was having with the use of the term. Either way it's to our detriment if we continue this conversation trying to hash out the definition of single word.

    What I've gathered from your postings in this thread is that you suggest curing addiction via the creation of a web of new associations over the original, unwanted association of addiction. My contention with this suggested process is that however complex the web may be, the underlying association is still there and is still susceptible to reactivation.

    The reactivation of this association is contingent on one's viewing of pornography as that is the originator of the unwanted association in the first place. The warping of desires and development of fetishes is not purely due to unwanted associations made during the viewing of straight pornography. I do agree with your assessment that the male actor in pornographic videos could be associated with the arousing imagery of the female. This is context-dependent conditioning in which seemingly irrelevant cues in our environment become associated with the rewarding stimulus without us being aware. For example, a, "recovered," alcoholic suddenly having intense urges after walking into a bar.

    With that being said though, the development of new fetishes is also contingent on the long-term potentiation of the neural connections associated with porn use. This causes the release of a greater amount of dopamine. To compensate for this, our brain begins to down-regulate the number of dopaminergic receptors. This leads to the development of new, crazier fetishes that release even more dopamine, thereby giving us a similar level of reward despite the dopaminergic down-regulation. Your suggested web of associations does not account for the escalating factors involved in porn use. Prolonged abstinence from pornography is the only way for the brain to recover from the neural changes that drive pornographic escalation.

    The issue that many addicts have at this point, especially addicts that started young, is a decrease in libido. The reason for this is that their libido has nothing to return to. The sometimes decades long development of the porn addiction has created a robust network of connections and associations that restrict the addicts libido exclusively to pornography. The only cure for this is to begin building neural connections and psychological associations with real life partners, a process that can still take months even after a period of hard mode NoFap. Engaging with pornography at any point during this process is purely counterproductive, especially given the virtual immortality of the complex network of connections responsible for porn addiction. The best one can hope for is that the connections of healthy sexuality come to overpower the connections of pathological sexuality. Again, until that happens, any engagement with pornography will be a setback. This might mean years of recovery, especially given the absolutely abysmal effort that far too many fapstronauts (including myself, absolutely) give to creating a high quality sex and relationship life.

    This brings us to the final point, and one that I've already mentioned. True recovery is defined by one's ability to moderate their use of the addictive substance. It's difficult to say whether this is possible. Although the addictive network will always be there it is within the realms of possibility that the network of healthy sexuality comes to dominate one's actions to such an extent that it is, effectively, like working with a blank slate.

    Working through the psychological issues that originally lead to the addictive use is definitely a precondition to such a relationship with pornography. However, I've seen some reports that claim pornography addiction can actually develop without pre-existing psychological trauma. In her book, "Sex Addiction as Affect Dysregulation," Alexandra Katehakis discusses this reality as well. This is an entirely new phenomena that is the result of a new generation of men having grown up using pornography from a young age. The addictive network that develops during adolescence is one that is terrifyingly powerful compared to one that develops during adulthood.

    So with those two paragraphs behind us, we cannot say for certain that a healthy relationship with pornography is possible post-addiction. Even were one to pursue a path of spiritual enlightenment and gain complete dominion over their emotional landscape, we must ask ourselves, "why use pornography anyway?" Sexual life with a real life partner will have a greater potential to be more fulfilling and healthy long-term than pornography. In addition, the process of becoming skilled enough to have a high quality sex life, be it with a single or multiple partners, is also vastly more fulfilling than using pornography.
     
  5. marekasap

    marekasap Fapstronaut

    Ok guys, I just read your opinions and I think I’m already no hope. Why? Because you say porn cannot make anyone gay. Well... it made me gay.

    I was PMO from early years maybe 14 at the latest and now I’m 36. I was never ever interested in boys, often got boner in school / high school were sexy girl was around. Same in college etc. after years spending with regular pork I moved forward and forward and started to watch gay porn. First it was disgusting but since regular porn was boring I moved to shemales and then gay porn. Of course it was still disgusting... but year spassed by I had number of real GF a lot of sex etc. recently my own GF had gay friends and once she said that she would love me to be fucked in the ass by gay. Of course it did not happens but idea was planted in my mind. Gay porn made finally do it... I tried, I cried and was ashamed. Thought it is over and stupid experiments but never ever gonna happen again. Well it happens twice more and as you can imagine ... it happens only after gay sissy hypno porn and longer period of no sex. I’m not attracted to guys, only girls. But due this sissy shit I tried and couple of times almost did it again !!! Just because I was watching sissy hypno encouraging to become gay.

    I’m again in relationship with girl and have zero interest in men. Only porn makes me want to be gay. I fought it once and goons win again.

    But coming back to your discussion - are you going to say that I’m gay and always were? I don’t know what I am but I love tits and vaginas and not interested in men nor attracted to them. I plan my future with women family kids etc
     
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  6. marekasap

    marekasap Fapstronaut

    PS: so do you think I can be cured? Of course I have PIED from time to time and difficulties to get erection for sex with girl but when I get longer break from porn I have no issues.

    So did I become gay and eventually loose interest in girls? Or am I able to fight this porn Induced “gayness” and become straight again?
     
  7. Phallosopher

    Phallosopher Fapstronaut

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    Man, I quit PMO a long time ago without this post, but what a great post. This will probably help a lot of people.
     
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  8. JasonMamoa

    JasonMamoa Fapstronaut

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    Very informative and interesting article. It clears a lot of my confusions.
     
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  9. Ricky56

    Ricky56 Fapstronaut

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    Se vuoi, possiamo parlare… in PM, ne hai trovato uno :D

    Back to the topic, this topic must be signed as a Must by admins, i mean, its all there, the explaination we all look for. The reasons why we escalate to different porn, the reason why we get turned ON when we see a penis more than a woman, and the fears of being gay, starts from there.
    At first, in a porn, we see this beautiful woman , its all fine, until we start to see the man and his "thing", we may seen, idk how many of them, thats why ,thanks to the fact that the main sensors are our hands, we associate the "thing" as the best of the best, when comin to pleasure.
    I gotta believe, we gotta believe there's a way out of this fu***** tunnel, there's light and hope, for all of US, good days are coming up but only if we hold ON when we're going through hard days, when everything is dark, when everything, urges, desires want us to come back to the old life and PMO all over again.
    NO… no

    We're stronger than these thoughts, and even if we got them, they doesnt represent us, our being, its important to not act on them, fall again into the spell.
    With COVID-19 seems harder to resist to the tentation but as we used to do before, we gotta keep going this way, we gotta remember how we Felt bad during these times and that alone, is an enough reason to keep going forward, the future is uncertain, but the past, the things we passed, we know how bad it was, we already know how to stay,feel better, what we have to do, am i right?
     
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  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Fapstronaut

    I personally believe 'gay' covers a wide ranges of behaviors and CAUSES... in some cases their might be a biological tendency - BUT that 'tendency' can be like the 'tendency ' for alcoholism -it doesn't mean you end up an alcoholic or even craving drink... it could mean you end up a marathon runner...

    I know the current fad is 'born that way' but I don't believe it for most people unless they 'have always known' - I think with most people it's sexual TASTES which is a result of conditioning. Great article @ yourbrainonporn:

    https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/ybo...d-the-brain/are-sexual-tastes-immutable-2012/
     
  11. marekasap

    marekasap Fapstronaut

    thanks. after couple of days in no PMO mode i'm sure i will recover. Already see nice progress and after 30 days i might forget about all those issues if my recovery progress remain at current level.
     
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  12. Will share my experience too (Fapstronaut of 52 days),

    Straight for all my life, always have been into girls. Had 2 long relationships, fucked around 35 girls.

    But since childhood I was masturbating 2-4 times as a teen and 1-2 times from 18 onwards. I crushed my dopamine levels and could only get excited by hardcore porn, bdsm, anal porn where the girl would suffer or gay or ts shit.

    After most of masturbating sessions I would feel somewhat dirty, BUT SPECIALLY WITH GAY ANS TS THE FEELING WAS OF TREMENDOUS DISGUST.

    Nonetheless, from time to time, I would go back to it. I was not in control of mind.

    Life happened and I ended up in Southeast Asia, one night I was drunk af, went to the hostel of a girl and tried to fuck her, we got caught by the staff and they threw me out of the place.

    Coming back home, 2 young prostitutes approached, told me if I wanted to have sex for like 10 $ and I said yeah let's go.

    Somehow I knew it, somehow I just didn't care, somehow I was freaking drunk...

    But that prostitute was a transgender.

    Fucked her quickly and left. But the shame did not, it stayed with me for a long time.

    Eventually I ended up many times using Grindr trying to find transgenders in my town after I couldn't find any dates on Tinder and I was extremely horny.

    In my worst moods I was also looking into guys to be the passive one, those days where horrible. And then I had to meet with my friends and pretend I was fine when in reality I was feeling super dirty.

    Thank God I didn't go crazy and started fucking guys, I did meet with one but instantly told him that I was not feeling comfortable and stopped it.

    It took long to realize this, but due to my lack of control, constantly destroying my dopamine receptors looking for novelty, I ended up with gay and ts stuff that I do not Identify in real life.

    My problem is, that I used to be horny most of the days and I was used to a very active sexual life. When I have a girl around this is good and I am in a good mood. But when there is not and I was feeling bad, I was just chasing what I didn't identify with.

    Fast forward 52 days of NoFap.

    Those urges are quite faded away. Those ideas do not seem attractive as they used to be. I gotta say that the temptation still exists around it, but I am sure I will overcome.

    Those connections have weakened.

    Feeling much better now, not chasing that kind of depravation.

    The only thing is that last 30 days I had a low libido. I don't know how long will it take me to return back to normal and make my brain forget about all that porn consumed.

    But I don't care, even if it takes 90 days, 180, 365 or 2 years. I am on the nofap journey and I am not quitting.

    So as a conclusion, just quit freaking PMO and enjoy the recovery. It will come.
     
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  13. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    @Neurostudent thanks for your posts, they are insightful.

    I am currently 13months nofap hard mode besides a relapse at month 7. I still get cravings for crazy sex things.

    The craziest thing is; since I started nofap my sexual fantasies got way more extreme, and new ones I didnt know I had appear. They remain to this day. When my brain starts to get attacked by fantasies it escalates to this new extreme stuff pretty quick.

    Like TS porn etc I watched now and then maybe handful of times when drunk, but wasn't really my thing at all. Yet when I started nofap after about 30 days, I had extreme cravings to get a TS prostitute, and this fantasy has endured, and sometimes progreses and gets worse

    Hopefully one day it all comes to an end, including the withdrawal symptoms
     
  14. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Fapstronaut

    you have to forgive yourself. Shame is what keeps you from healing. We've all done stuff, thought of stuff that we're not proud of, but it is a path to healing...
    When I first came here, four years ago :) i thought i'd be healed in a 90 - its' turned out 90 was just the beginning -and looking into sexual issues was just the beginning too..
    I am not sorry for it though, I am glad I went on this journey!
     
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  15. marekasap

    marekasap Fapstronaut

    it will go away, no worries. Just keep going! Porn makes you do it. I know becasue it made me to do it actually and i regret.

    Do you imagine to wake up everyday with TS / Man next to you in the bed?
    If the answer is no, stop looking for this kind of excitment as its fake. You will damage yourself hard and recovery will be long.

    Get out of porn and go back to normal life!
     
  16. marekasap

    marekasap Fapstronaut

    have you recovered eventually or still in progress?
     
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  17. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Fapstronaut

    Still in progress- had a lot of issues prior to PMO online digital was just something that exacerbated and magnified existing stuff.
    I haven't recovered fully but i have reduced PMO by 90-95% - I now go streaks of 50+ days regularly - sometimes (as you can see in my sig) much longer than that..I have only recently finally faced the underlying issues - if i had a bit of advice to speed up recovery, face the stuff you don't want to face.
     
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  18. Happy that you are having progresses!!

    May I ask what do you exactly mean about facing stuff?

    Personally been on a journey of self-reporting and admitting things I did not want to admit and that was buried within myself.. For the last weeks everything was working fine, but for some reasons demons are kind of chasing me back, been having some weird dreams and been thinking about the things that I regret. Today I counted how many prostitutes I slept with and dammit, the number is 7. Way too high for someone who is 23yo and has no issues getting girls the usual way. It was all about lust and chasing dopamine + lack of self control.

    Another thing that right now is more or less constantly in my mind is PIED, my mind is tricking me and trying to make me think that it is a physical problem... Did you have any issues or improvements in that area?

    Cheeeers!!
     
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  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Fapstronaut

    exactly this - with me some childhood stuff including unwanted touching by an adult. I am not talking about 'repressed' memories here but things which I wrote off as not effecting me but realizing it was.
    Also putting it in full writing what I do now and try to figure out why. I understand I had/have a yogapants/tights/nylon fetish - I mean , women look good in those things right? But why did it become fetishized with me to the point of blocking normal sexual impusles?

    If its too personal for here, i suggest a hand written journal - we all have 'dark' thoughts and urges in our brains nothing to be ashamed of - the problem is somehow with many of us these thoughts and urges became ways of dealing with anxiety and trauma.
     
  20. One interesting thing that we have in common...

    When I was a kid, I also had sexual experiences, but with other kids... Thankfully we were the same age, we were a bit too young to know what we were doing. Guess that also might have played an effect on me and all my previous sexual engagement.

    Good to know that being transparent with myself and being honest with me is going to take me places. This nofap journey for me means more than just not masturbating, it is way beyond that.

    Thanks for your thread, it gave me a chance to review some things.
     
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