How can anyone seriously be happy in heaven knowingly that other people are suffering in hell?

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  1. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    There being "other forces" in existence doesn't necessarily make God any less powerful. We would say that God created these forces for a reason. At most, they should be viewed as servants of God, and not be uplifted and deified.
  2. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    I think you're right there.

    A great example of this is the bizarre story of Noah and Ham.

    Genesis 9:20-25

    Noah, a man of the soil, was the first to plant a vineyard. He drank some of the wine and became drunk, and he lay uncovered in his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; their faces were turned away, and they did not see their father’s nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, he said,

    “Cursed be Canaan;
    lowest of slaves shall he be to his brothers.”

    There are several ways to look at this.

    1) Ham sees his father naked.
    2) Ham has consential sex with his mother.
    3) Ham rapes Noah.
    4) Ham rapes his Mother.
    5) Ham rapes Noah and his Mother.

    Christians can learn a lot from Jews after all most of the Bible revolves around Jews. It's always a good idea to listen to read and listen to Jewish Scholars.
  3. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    You could be right. What stops me from doing accepting that is child abuse. Some people never get over it and kill themselves. So maybe God is all-loving and all-powerful but not all-knowing. If you could stop something happening to someone that would lead them to die by suicide would you?
  4. brilliantidiot

    brilliantidiot Fapstronaut

    Very true.
  5. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    That makes a lot of sense to me.

    @Castielle thank you for your contributions in this thread.
    I always had a certain confused feeling when discussing with @Brokenman123, trying to offer him some important knowledge what may lead him into the love of God.
    But you made it quite clear for me what's going on in these threads.
    It's certainly a waste of my time to continue with giving contributions. So thanks.
    Castielle and Hold it in like this.
  6. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    It's interesting that the issue you point to as problematic is child abuse. I mean, you could ask this about a lot of issues. The big question would be: Why do bad things happen to good people?
  7. Hold it in

    Hold it in Fapstronaut

    Bingo. Total waste of time
  8. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    I can understand where you're coming from. Personally, I get into these discussions because I like discussing religion. I'm not really in it to convince anyone. I like arguing my points, but I try to be aware that most people won't have an ideological change of heart just because some virtual person told them that. So I try to take things lightly. At most I'll occasionally vent on my computer screen :).
  9. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Follow the Spirit, not me. Do whatever you feel God is leading you to do. There have been times I really didn't think responding would be a good idea, but I felt like I was supposed to, so I did. You never know what God could use. But at this point, I think I need to steer clear.
    Roady likes this.
  10. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    As long as you see God as a virtual person, you definitely don't know where I'm coming from.
  11. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    I wasn't referring to God as a virtual person (God isn't a person in any case ;)). I was talking about us regular guys chatting online. Things become more convincing when we get face to face in real life, not when we're sitting and typing on computers.
  12. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    I apologize for misunderstanding you quite completely.
    As I understand you right now, I totally agree with you.

    But I don't agree with you on the part that God isn't a person. He is a personality, a very creative and loving personality with whom I can talk, listen to, interact, follow, love and so on. Only a personal heart is able to forgive me when I hurt it.

    That's all not personal if He is "just a force" or "energy".
  13. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    God is a personable entity, not a person.
  14. FollowYourBeard

    FollowYourBeard Fapstronaut

    I haven't read all the 10 pages, but the traditional western view of eternal hell with all the devils torturing people and stuff is pretty damaging to the Church and God. It's based on Plato more than the Bible and is just terrible. I like the eastern more and the most the one where people die with second death and that's it. They become dead exhumans.
    onceaking likes this.
  15. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    It doesn't matter what you like more. It matters what is true.
    Roady and FollowYourBeard like this.
  16. FollowYourBeard

    FollowYourBeard Fapstronaut

    For me, it does matter what I like. You don't have to take what I say so literally. When I said I like I meant what I sense is true.

    But I can see you're the type, that thinks the truth is available and easily accessible. Or maybe I'm wrong?
  17. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm the type who thinks truth is more important than what seems appealing. If what you meant was that explanation seems more true to you based on some kind of evidence and research, then fine. But that's not what you said. You said it's the explanation you like better. And there are tons of people in the world who legitimately think that's a good way to decide what they believe, so I thought maybe you were one of those people. If you're not, that's fine. A simple clarification is all that was needed.
    FollowYourBeard likes this.
  18. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    Why should that be damaging to the church?
    God cannot be damaged as He is Holy.
    What should be the solution for the damage that is brought to the church according to you?
  19. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    I bet every recovering porn addict will definitely disagree with this statement.
    EXPONENTIALLY likes this.

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    Hell is real and should make lost people accountable for their actions, hence push them to believe the Good News of Jesus Christ who died FOR THEIR SINS at the cross, and live better in newness of spirit, born again.

    Wicked people deserve retribution. If anyone would harm you or your 'loved ones', especially in a mean manner, you'll be infuriated and want them to PAY accordingly. That is called JUSTICE.

    God is holy and just 100%, and he made us free with the ability to choose to live how we want, Eve & Adam chose wrong, humanity corrupted, world cursed, Satan temporary reigning among spiritual wickedness in high places, afraid of the blood of Jesus Christ, upset he isn't God but a created, rebellious, being doomed to Hell, his only delight being this temporary fallen world and stealing and killing people that God created FREE to choose (instead of objects).

    God knew since the beginning of times, He did His utmost best to redeem His FREE creature out of Hell and So He sacrificed Himself for it at the cross as for the ransom on the altar assuring eternal redemption, that His word prophecized since the beginning when He addressed the serpent in Eden: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. -Genesis 3:15. God promised and God fulfilled: When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. Imagine you built a little boat and you put it on a river so it would go freely as the current goes, but then someone wicked stole it on the other side of the river, and the next day you found that person with your boat in their arms, and then you even pay the most expensive price for it, and you get it back. We as human beings are like many boats in that sense, and only ourselves can choose sincerely to return to God trusting in His payment that redeems us eternally by faith alone (lest any man should boast) TODAY before the Rapture, in a way it also authentically glorifies God as the only God. Therefore if anyone, dies without faith in God's redemption, they will go to Hell, because Heaven is a holy and just place 100% and also amazing.

    Now, what about people dying BEFORE the crucifixion ? you may ask. Well, these people were divided between Jews and Gentiles, God's elected people in Abraham's revelation and pagan idol worshipping people (simply who rejected the Jewish covenant and who weren't seeking God; because by adoption, marriage or payment, they could have been fellowheirs in some way). People who died in Abraham, observing the law, regularly sacrificing an animal at the Temple in Jerusalem for a temporary remission of sins (foreshadowing Christ's) would go down in Abraham's bosom. Between that bosom and Hell were some wall or gulf: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. -Luke 16:22-24. Abraham's bosom was also called paradise. Jesus during His burried period (3 days) went preaching to the damned and He took those in Abraham's bosom with Him, before ascending to Heaven. Nowadays people are divided between Christians and lost people.

    Now, regarding mercy and sorrows once in Heaven, I think the right term to describe seeing people burning in Hell (if it ever happens) would be shame or even simply justice since pain doesn't exist in Heaven. They had their time, their opportunity to be saved, they chose to reject and went against their conscience searing it with the hot iron of depravity and rebellion. And God's word says God is not mocked and you reap what you sow. That's why it's by God's GRACE through our own faith in His shed blood for us that we are saved, by hearing, understanding and trusting that GOOD NEWS (Gospel). How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned. -Isaiah 14:12-20 Another way to look at it is that the devil is the great garbage man who collects the trash before the New Earth... or acts as a training for resistance from which treasures in Heaven are accumulated for Christians.. but anyway. No flesh and blood shall inherit the kingdom I think, that's why Christians will have their immortal glorified bodies at the Rapture (like the RISEN Christ's) which would be physical as well.
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2019

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