How can anyone seriously be happy in heaven knowingly that other people are suffering in hell?

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  1. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    The reason I say that is because some of the Christian explanations make sense to certain problems.

    What I hear is two explanations for suffering.

    1) Suffering makes you stronger and you learn lessons from it.
    2) Once you've been through suffering you can help others who are going through similar things to you.

    In some cases, this works but in others it doesn't. I mean someone who kills themself is neither stronger or is able to help others. It seems to me some people go through things they just can't cope with.
     
  2. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    I thought it was more to do with Milton and Dante. Although I have no doubt Plato may have played a part in this.

    But what is truth? I don't see much truth in this thread, just many opinions (and I include what I've said here). Just because someone is convinced something is true doesn't mean it's true. In the end we can't prove the existence of hell like we can prove the existence of gravity.
     
  3. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    My point is, if someone is looking into theories, evidence, research, etc about a subject, they should be doing so with the purpose of trying to find out what's true. They shouldn't just stumble upon a theory and think "oh, that sounds nice. I would like it if that were true, so I'll believe that." That's just a dumb way to live. I would like it if nobody died of cancer, but I'm not going to live my life believing cancer doesn't exist.
     
  4. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    I'm sorry you feel this way, but I don't see your contributions as a waste. I learned a lot from this thread and I'm still learning a lot from it, so your contribution wasn't a waste IMO and neither was anyone else's contribution. Sorry if I made it feel like it was. Another thing too but as I said before I think it's brave for people to be Christians nowadays given how much criticism it receives... maybe I might become brave one day and become a believer again as improbable as that seems right now but anyways please don't feel like your contributions were a waste because to me they weren't.
     
    Roady likes this.
  5. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    Yeah, let's have another discussion about the difference between "a person" and "a personality".

    It becomes more interesting maybe if we replace the word "truth" with "reality".
    What is real? And what is unreal (so, fake, not existing, twisted, lied...)
    What is reality? And is it possible to see, to experience the reality?

    Once people believed that the earth was flat. It was their reality. They hadn't discovered yet that the earth was round like a pingpong ball.
    So what they believed, was not aligned with the reality (they were already in, but they were not able to see the reality).

    Same with a thousand other things.
    There was a time without planes. Michelangelo started talking about flying in a machine, because he believed that was possible (to become reality).
    People didn't believe him because they didn't see him flying actually.
    Until the brothers Wright built the first plane and made it real, people just laughed about the idea of flying in a machine.

    Reality and faith goes hand in hand. If I believe what's real, my vision is focused on real things, not on fairytales. Because I believe the real thing, I don't have to be afraid for being
    wrong. That gives a certain peace.

    Back to the topic of this thread.
    What is the truth about hell? -> what is the reality about hell? Can we know hell exists -> Can we know hell is real?
    What is the reality about God? Was Jesus indeed the only way to God? Is that true? Is that the reality?
    Is is possible to discover the reality? I dare to say: "YES, that's possible." Discovering has everything to do with daring to look very carefully at the world, gather wisdom and insight in everything that's happening at the moment, dare to study DEEP into the oldest scriptures existing. Dare to look into your own heart and become honest about your own pain and suffering (reality about yourself).

    Everybody who is discussing religion and/or the existence of God should do his/hers own examination.
    If the truth is that God exists -> if the reality of this world is that God is there -> if God is real, then it must be possible to found that out.

    Some people are laughing at the idea, joking God away all their life.
    But the reality does not change because of that. When people die, it's not logic to think that the reality of God and His stipulations will change or disappear in all of a sudden.

    There is not much logic in this statement.
    No, you can't prove the existence of hell at-this-very-moment but if the reality is that hell exists for a reason, then that must be very clear after you die!

    Two chances:
    1. The reality is that hell doesn't exist. Oke, live your life, do what you want, and after you die, you will be fine, or you will be gone forever without knowing that.

    2. The reality is that hell exist. Oops. You then will see you have a problem with God after the moment you die. You will stand before the Throne of Righteousness, and maybe the love and light of Heaven are SO pure and holy you will scream and beg if you may want to hide yourself in hell. This is just an example imaginable for what may happen.

    The question is: what is real?
    If Jesus was real according to His own words, it is made very clear what is going on here on earth, and in the after life.
    Jesus was not the type of person using all kind of hidden messages or heavy language. A child was able to understand what He was talking about.
    If the reality is that Jesus really walked on earth 2000 years ago, and according to His own words He is know in Heaven, then it must be possible to found that out and to communicate with Him personally!

    My vision is: if you want to know if hell is real, find that out here on earth. And don't rest before you found the reality about that!
    In other words:
    Don't rest before you have the assurance that you don't spend your eternal life in hell, whatever hell may be.
    I dare to say that that's a real possibility.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  6. EXPONENTIALLY

    EXPONENTIALLY Fapstronaut

    I believe the Earth is "flat" surrounded by the Antarctica and there's a dome above us, unmovable as God said, the Bible says it has 4 corners and pillars, how can a ping-pong ball being accurate? It's a masonic cult, the supposedly speed of the Earth would be 666 miles or sth. So to me the reality is that truth is being polluted by a satanic mist of lies you have to see through and surpass.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  7. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    I really think you missed my point.
     
  8. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    Oke I'm glad to read you 've learned some things, but I really think you need time to overthink the responses you 've got.
     
  9. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    Well I agree it's possible but it isn't certain. We could all be wrong and it's refreshing to see you say things aren't certain.

    I think there is logic because we know for sure gravity is a reality but don't know for sure hell is a reality.

    I think there are more than two options. There are other religious beliefs about heaven and hell. What if Islam or Buddism is true? That brings us to other alternatives. And besides what the Bible says about hell isn't straight forward. First of all the word hell is a made English word that was used by the King James Bible translators. What the translators did was use the word Hell for when the Bible talked about Gehenna, Sheol and Hades. These three places aren't the same place but the translators have made them out to be just one place. Is hell eternal conscious torment or annihilation? Some verses in the suggest the former and others suggest the latter.

    On a philosophical level, there are problems as well. If hell exists it makes heaven a miserable place really. Heaven will be fine for people who don't have loved ones in hell but not for people who have loved ones there. Or will people become heartless once they are in heaven and won't care about the people in hell? And if that is the case then what kind of place is heaven? This is a big problem because scripture says our tears will be wiped away and there will no pain once in heaven but how can there no pain if people are in hell?

    Not really. First, we can't know for sure what Jesus actually said since it's likely the gospels started to be written at least 40 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. How trustworthy is something written after so long? I don't everything in the gospels was actually said by Jesus. I find it quite remarkable how similar some of the words of Jesus are similar to that of the Buddha. I think it's not unreasonable to think many of the events in the gospel probably never happened. From my understanding in the study of history it's the more sources, the more trustworthy an account is. Many of the stories are only recorded by one or two of the gospel writers and I think it's wise to not trust such stories.

    As for Jesus being very clear about the earth and the afterlife I do see much clearness. From my understanding when Jesus is talking about hell he's either talking about Gehenna and Hades. The parts when he's talking about Gehenna is when he's rebuking people or warning people and the rest is when he's talking about Hades. Gehenna is a place in Israel, nowadays it's a beautiful garden but back in Jesus day it was a waste dump. As for hades, he seems to talk about hades as being an evil force rather than a place. I don't think a child would be able to understand this since even some adult don't understand. Jesus wasn't a simple person, he spoke in riddles at times and would hardly ever explain things plainly.
     
  10. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    I wonder why you twist my statement into your own direction.
    It's possible to find certainty about the reality, that's my statement.

    I'm afraid you missed my point completely.

    Fine that this counts for you, but it doesn't count for me.
    If God showed you the truth about Jesus, you will see that the words of Jesus are true:
    "I'm the truth, the path and the life, no man can come to the Father than by Me." (John 14).

    Before I received the Holy Spirit, yes, there were many alternatives for me. I examined them all thoroughly.
    Once I saw the truth in Jesus, these alternatives becomes just lies for me, misleadings, dead-ended paths.
    The reality is that it becomes clear why there are so many religions. At least, for me that's very clear.
    After I found Christ I broke up with all other religious influences. They didn't bring life or joy or truth. It was just garbage for me.

    Does that really matter? For me it doesn't. I have been in hell here on earth. That spiritual state where you feel your depressive dark loveless and lonely spirit is dying slowly. It already was a constant torture.
    I'm glad all that torture is just gone and I experience peace for instead.

    Read what you wrote please. I was talking about reality. philosophers are very far from reality as they can't get it
    because they keep on philosophize about it....

    I think you have to rewrite some sentences:
    "This is a big problem" , yes for you it's maybe a big problem. That's your experience, but that doesn't count for me.
    I don't have such problem. Heaven is the most awesome place to be, for me personally.
    Of course I hope I'll meet my loved ones there, but in the end, it's not my responsibility, it's theirs.
    I know for sure that the righteousness of God will people into the right place. There is written more about that in this thread and I would like to point to that posts.

    Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit form the Trinity. That means that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are One in being.
    That means that the Word of God, including everything that Jesus have said, everything that is written down, was inspired by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is able to confirm things today that are written 2000 years ago.
    It's the same Spirit. As He cannot lie, He only can show the truth.
    That's the reason the words of Jesus ánd the written words of the gospels are trustworthy.

    You are totally free to do your own examination, and make your own conclusions.
    But mine are completely different. You are telling things here, which I wonder how you came to that conclusions.

    They crucified Christ because of His statements and for who He was.
    Do you really think stories will be maintained if they are full of lies? The stories the gospel writers shared in that time has many many listeners. If they were telling bullshit, I really believe such stories would be forgotten very quickly.
    It 's very clear they couldn't handle the existence of Christ in that time, so the romans would do everything to prevent the gospel writers for sharing the witnesses of Jesus. They had no single benefit for these stories to be maintained as their plan to destroy Christ and His teachings has failed completely.
    The fact that these stories are written down and pressed on paper and translated in more than 2000 languages, and be maintained for more than 2000 years, shows me that these stories must contain something very very special. Especially if they are written down by only 4 gospel writers.

    An important detail is that many many events were predicted hundreds of years before they were actually happening, by the prophets. Another prove that the books in the bible are inspired by one Spirit.

    Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.(Marc 10)
    He explains that if you come to him with the faith like a child, the kingdom of God is easily to enter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2019
  11. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Anyone who goes to heaven will be enamored and amazed to be in the manifest presence of the infinite God. He's going to show us new, incredible things every day for the rest of eternity. We'll be far too in awe and preoccupied to think about what's going on in hell.

    It won't if you actually get to heaven. And if you're agnostic, you probably don't even believe in hell anyway, so why does it matter to you?

    So you think no one should ever go to hell? Would you honestly be in heaven, feeling sad about the fact that Hitler is in eternal torment? Or that Charles Manson is having a bad day?

    About human nature--if God created us without the ability to sin, we wouldn't have the ability to love. Love requires the ability to choose in order for it to mean anything. You could create a robot to serve you and to always obey you 100% of the time, but you wouldn't feel loved. Love requires a free choice, but one of the caveats of free choice is that rejection becomes a possibility. In order for God to create people he could have a loving relationship with, he had to give them the freedom to reject him. Unfortunately, that's the decision many people make.

    He does indeed know that not everyone will accept Jesus. However, their lack of belief is their fault.

    "For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."
    If it were truly that difficult to know what religion was right, then you're correct--it would be unfair for God to judge people for their indecision. Maybe ... just maybe ... God could come down to earth in the form of a man to show us the way himself. Then we could listen to what he says and understand. Naaaaah, that would never happen ...

    He is self-sufficient. He does have everything he needs within himself. He didn't create mankind because he needed us. He created mankind because he wanted to.
     
  12. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Christians still worry about other people. In fact, when you're a Christian, you should worry about other people. That's why we're commanded to preach the gospel. It's why several believers in these forums patiently answer your questions about God and faith.

    He isn't. God is consistent. If two people claim God is telling them different things, at least one of them is wrong. They might both be wrong ... but they cannot both be right.

    Nope.

    They're either being deceived, or they're lying.

    Sometimes we have to learn things the hard way. Adam and Eve sinned because they didn't trust what God said, and humanity has been paying for it ever since.

    Then you'll have to be content never accepting anything as being true. You'll die in your sins because you weren't able to engage your mind enough to discern truth from falsehood.

    There's also disagreement over whether or not the earth is round. People debate things all the time--but the presence of debate doesn't mean the issue doesn't have a conclusive answer.

    As far as Jesus being the Messiah ... there are dozens of prophesies about the Messiah in the Old Testament: where he would be born, where he'd grow up, what kind of life he would live, how he would die, etc. etc. Jesus fulfilled every single one of them. Anyone who's expecting a different Messiah has an awfully long wait ahead of them.
     
  13. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    @Brokenman123 , I give you a ton of credit. You're not willing to buy into a religion without engaging your entire mind, and that's admirable. I appreciate that you're asking sincere questions and being honest about your doubts.

    Below, I'm linking to a question about hell that was posed to Dr. John Lennox. Lennox is a professor of mathematics and philosophy at Oxford University in England. He's a brilliant thinker and, in particular, travels the world and speaks on how science supports the idea of God. I think you'll find his comments here to be interesting. Whenever Lennox talks, I listen.



    And here's the fantastic Tim Keller addressing a similar question (shot by a cameraman who needs to learn how to use a tripod, clearly).

     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2019
  14. JoeinMD

    JoeinMD Fapstronaut

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    You would have a glorified mind as well as a glorified body after the final judgment, and you would see all things from God's point of view (He didn't send them there) and the point of view of the damned who categorically, freely, and wantingly refused heaven - it would all seem just.
     
  15. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    Interesting responses... thanks for your participations, I'm looking into all of it.
     
  16. bken

    bken Fapstronaut

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    If God is omniscient that means He knows someone is going to be wicked before that soul is even created. In other words He has the power to stop that creation and spare that soul from an eternity of suffering. It would be better for that soul if he were never created. Would it not?

    Free will and omniscience are two different things. If the biblical God is the only true God I wouldn't want to accuse him but.... you might wonder why on earth the wicked aren't stopped from being born.

    Take a look at proverbs 16:4

    "The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom."

    Also the Bible preaches life is nothing compared to eternity. Why does someone have to spend all eternity suffering for a mere earthly existence of doing the wrong things?

    You can't get around some biblical stories that clearly contradict God's professed omniscient nature. Take the flood for instance, according to the biblical story He didn't know mankind would be so sinful. An omniscient God would know and prevent this. Somewhere in the Bible it even says He has to come down to inspect what's going on.
     
  17. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    I was hoping for the best but now it's obvious that was a mistake! From now I'll view everything you write with complete pessimism!!! If you can't communicate well it's not my fault!
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
  18. 1978

    1978 Fapstronaut

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    There is no such thing as heaven or hell. Those are just fairytales invented to get you to behave yourself.
     
  19. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

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