Humbled. Reset

I am thinking of starting a thread titled "Triggers" or "Porn is..." I thought when I first started coming here I knew what porn was, what triggered guys. I was naive. I thought porn was just porn, but once a guy is addicted, mannequins trigger some of us. Sad but true. There are actually guys on here who keep watching porn when trying to quit MOing, and don't understand why they fail.

Porn is seeing porn, it is watching it, it is thinking about it, it is imagining it, it is remembering it, it is thinking about it while MOing even if you are not actually watching it, it is PMOing, it is fantasizing, it is edging while watching or thinking about it, it is having actual sex while thinking of porn, it is porn substitutes, any hypersexualized imagery or thought of that. Porn can be strictly in the brain, or it can be in hard copy, it can be on computers, televisions, and on smart phones, as in apps. Porn is phone sex. Porn is engaging any thought of unreal sex. Porn is chat rooms. Porn is sex toys. For one guy in this forum, porn is a cock ring. Porn does not have to be visual, it can be strictly audio. Porn can be literature about sex. Porn does not have to be on porn sites, it can be found on Facebook, Craigslist, Youtube, etc. It can be found on commercial retail sites; Sears, Target, Walmart. For me, when I first started quitting, I told myself I was making progress because I moved from very hardcore stuff to Google images, where I searched vanilla nudes. Bikini pics trigger me. Lingerie models trigger me. Hooters girls trigger me. Just girls on the street trigger me if I let them, but I don't. I consciously have decided not to let hypersexualized images linger in my head. Before, I was not making progress, I was still feeding my dopamine fix. You have to avoid your triggers, not flirt with them. Let me say this again--you have to avoid your triggers, not flirt with them. Your triggers are not going to be merely the hardcore stuff you are trying to quit watching, they will be much softer stuff than can pop out on you from benign sites like Yahoo, Craigslist, Google. You have know that in advance and plan on avoiding them. You have to get your dopamine levels back down. That will take time (could be 30 days) and requires a total absence of porn in your head. If you are walking down the street in the middle of the day thinking about porn, you are using porn, so find something else to pop in your head if that situation occurs.

On humility. Yes, we have to be humble. We cannot fall into the "we can handle it now" trap. I had to learn I cannot use porn casually, cannot play with it, pick it up and put it down when I wanted. It does take humility to accept we are not strong enough to control it.

Good luck in your journey.

 

William. While I agree with most of your posts, I'd like to point out that we shouldn't get too carried away when it comes to fighting porn. Now I'm referring to your definiton of porn. I want to point back to the original problem, that created our PMO cycle in the first place, and that is high-speed internet porn, as Gary Wilson tells us.
Sexuality and potentionally triggering images are as old as humankind, and we want to control our sexuality in a healthy way and not eradicate it. I know that's not what you meant but I still wish to talk about it. First and foremost we should determine what it is that we want to fight against, and that is the useage of high speed internet porn. That's the main problem, and after we fixed it, we'll have a much easier job to deal with the rest. That is masturbation and fantasizing. I don't know about your experience but when i was using porn, I masturbated every day. Not because I really wanted to, but that's what I did, it was a habit. When I couldn't look at porn and after I decided not to look at it, the need for masturbation decreased automatically.

If I see a picture of a half naked woman, I get aroused quickly, but I do not act upon it and the urge goes away as fast as it came. That's the point of nofap for me. Being able to maintain your freedom under every circumstances. That means not acting upon the urges.

Anyway the point is that we shouldn't overburden ourselves, especially in the beginning. Though that is just my point of view and I respect your opinion. Stay strong!

 

I think William has the right of it. Not everyone has the self-control to give themselves the luxury of not taking absolutely every precaution possible.
I know I don't. Even the smallest thing will be a ridiculous trigger for me. I have to go to extremes now to avoid them, now that I realize my problem.

 

Staying positive! I like that. It was not all a loss. You conquered a feat. Good luck onthe rest of your journey!

 

@ EarthDragon. I have a theory. I have no science to back it, it is just a theory, so of course, like any theory, it could be wrong. By the way, thanks for posting. Reading posts and responding are part of my recovery, a tool I use to stay clean, so thanks.

My theory is that after we become addicted to high speed internet porn, we trigger on just about anything, when quitting. In the quitting stage, once we remove hardcore porn from our experience, that part of our brain that misses its routine dopamine fix will fix on just about anything. It is seeking a reason to fix, it is seeking a trigger. For example, before my addiction to high speed internet porn, Penthouse was not a trigger. Now it is. Why? I think once we rewire our brains to get that constant dopamine fix, then, when we try to quit, our brains want that fix even in response to things that, before we became addicted, would not be triggers. When coming down, we trigger on things that many would not define as porn. This state is after high speed internet porn addiction, and while trying to quit. I believe high speed internet porn addiction changes us; the science is clear that it does rewire our brains to issue a dopamine reward for things other than actual sexual activities. WRA for instance relapsed to sexting. Sexting is of course not sex. Our brains did not evolve to reward sexting any more than it did to reward porn. I don't know what "sexting" for WRA actually was, I don't know if it involved any images at all, but it did involve hypersexualized thoughts; new, novel, previously unexperienced, sexual thoughts. We know that dopamine loves the new, the novel, the shocking, the unexperienced. What I am saying is that, when quitting, we have to avoid any sexual thoughts that bring about a dopamine release, and that when quitting, a lot of thoughts and conduct that are not commonly thought of as pornography give our brains an excuse to release dopamine. When quitting, our brains are looking for an excuse to release dopamine, so it finds an excuse even in small things, things we would not necessarily categorize as porn. This time around, WRA needs to stay clear of that. This is a lesson learned, sexting triggered a relapse. I cannot be browsing Penthouse, he cannot be sexting. Some guys (all guys actually) cannot quit and be watching hardcore porn, others cannot quit and be browsing though a Victoria Secrets' shop in the mall. Our triggers are unique to us. In the quitting stage we have to avoid all triggers, and in the quitting stage we have to be aware that for some of us, a picture of a door knob will trigger us. If that's our trigger, it's our trigger. Just my opinion. I see a lot of guys in here trying to quit while still playing around with triggers. I have not seen any of those guys actually quit. Maybe on the other side of my problem I will be able to casually browse through a Penthouse magazine and not trigger, but I am not taking that chance. I am clean, I want to stay clean. A dog drools when it smells food, my brain releases dopamine when I have a hypersexualized thought. Before I was addicted to high speed internet porn it did not do that, now it does. Just a reality I live with. I avoid hypersexualized thoughts because I don't want the dopamine release and the withdrawals that come with them. I think in quitting, we have to avoid all triggers, even ones that not everyone would consider a trigger. Just my opinion.

Peace.

 

^^^^^^ This.

 

This discussion warrants its own thread. I just want to add my 2 cents.

The best way to explain this is to understand what happens at a neurological level, what happens in the brain. In the beginning, looking at porn triggers massive dopamine release and with it arousal comes. Because porn is the only thing that can get us aroused, nothing else can arouse us to the same extent, not beautiful girls on the street, not even our girlfriends or wives. Porn is the only colorful thing in what has become a black and white life. Then we decide to stop looking at porn. This means that our brains become dopamine soaked, they don't get the high that was previously there. So, we eliminated the bright and shinny thing and now everything is starting to turn from black and white into colorful objects. Things that previously didn't arouse us is now starting to arouse us more than it should. Remember, our brain is still dopamine deprived, and this is not a normal state for it. So it's still looking to get its highs. That's why after one stops looking for porn, several porn substitutes appear: things that are now arousing, that get the dopamine released, although they previously didn't have this effect. These porn substitutes can take various shapes that differ from person to person. Just to name a few examples I would say calling escort girls, visiting prostitutes, sexting, heck even looking at Victoria Secret models. William has many more examples in his post and I agree with all of them. Everything can become a trigger, anything that will get the dopamine flowing in the brain is a potential trigger. But I believe, and William can correct me if I am wrong, that this over sexualized state won't persist for long. It could be anywhere from 30 days to 90 days, but after that they are not arousing anymore into compulsion. At a certain point these triggers stop being triggers. We could be doing them without become compulsive about it and it won't lead us back to PMO'ing. Of course sexualized images still trigger dopamine release because we are sexual beings, but when we are recovered, we won't act on them. We will feel arousal, acknowledge it, accept it, and decide to not act upon it.

EarthDragon, I have to agree with William on this. In the beginning if we don't remove all the triggers from our life, then two situations might arise: 1. acting on a trigger will lead a person back to PMO'ing or 2. this new trigger will become the new compulsion, one will replace PMO with other activity that is arousing, and he will just end up with another addiction. I believe that one needs to be extremely strict, at least in the beginning 30 days, if not the whole 90 days. Afterwards, he can lead again a normal life, be exposed to the sexualized society and be confident that he won't act upon his arousal urges.

Edit: when I wrote this post I didn't see William's reply to EarthDragon, and yet is strange that we came to the same theories.

 

@ William

I hope I get your meaning, my english is quite tested with elaborate explanations like yours. However it's plausible that what you think is true. It seems that you build your quitting method around the brains dopamine release. Though I must admit, even that I saw the YBOP videos I didn't really get what's up with the dopamine stuff. However I agree that durong the reboot, the brain is more sensitive to erotic stuff than before. I mean during the pmo era I may not have noticed simple erotic stuff because it wasn't interesting enough compared to the stuff I watched in porn. Now, I immediately notice every erotic content, maybe because the forbidden fruit is always more delicious. However I don't dwell on triggering material. I mean if I see a hot girl in the street, I look at her and I notice that she is attractive, but I don't start thinking about how would she look naked or anything like that. It's not like I have to fight it, it just never comes to my mind.

Also basically my quitting is centered around the freedom of choice. To tell you about it short, my theory and method is that no matter what kind of potentially triggering material I see, I don't have to act upon any urges that come with it. I may not have full control over what I see and what triggers me, but I do have full control over my body. For example there was a night where the urges were extra strong and I just put my hands on the desk in front of me, and I didn't move them until the urge went away. So what I mean is that I can choose what I am doing with my hands freely.

You know what would be interesting to know? If a guys brain who quitted porn and another ones who never looked at it, would react differently to certain kinds of triggering images? I think the pmo cycle change things in the brain permanently, if nothing else, you can't erase your memories. Even if you don't bring them up, they are still accesible.

Also reading your post...I think that maybe there are multiple different roads on the way to success.
And honestly, every theory I have on how a relapse works are purely based on others opinions and experiences.
Good luck!

 

@ aron

Okay it seems that I misunderstood Williams point, I agree with you guys of course. Thanks for making it more clear!
Maybe I'm over the toughest part then, because nowadays I just watch the time fly by, I don't have to really fight anything. I also didn't develop a new dopamine producing habit.
I just don't get one thing. What is sexting? I don't know this expression.

 

Hi Gentlemen,Wannariseabove, EarthDragon, undeath 52, and aron.

EarthDragon mentions freedom of choice. There's the rub, isn't it? Everyone quitting has to struggle with that, because though we have chosen to quit, we find it difficult. We have the freedom of choosing to quit porn, but many cannot. Many believe, feel, their addiction gives them no choice but to continue abusing porn. If choosing to quit was easy, we would not be here. For a pornography addict--unlike someone who is not--we do not have freedom of choice when it comes to dopamine release. If a porn addict experiences porn, dopamine is released. When I say "experience porn" I mean porn in the many forms our brains can interpret it, not just porn. Though Gary Wilson does not expressly say it this way, I have come to believe there is no choice when a porn addict experiences porn; when a porn addict experiences porn no choice is made about the dopamine release, it is simply released. Just like a dog that smells food; it drools. I am talking specifically about porn addicts; the dopamine release is an unconditioned response. For us, that high is automatic when we experience porn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_conditioning

Maybe over the time we abused porn we unconsciously conditioned ourselves to have this response, but by the time we are in the midst of the addiction, dopamine is simply released when we experience porn. And when I say "experience porn" I mean experience the many "triggers" that exist in our brains. Point: porn is more than just porn.

I think this addiction, as it relates to triggers, must be understood in terms of "before addiction" and "after addiction". Maybe we should even think of it in terms of "before" "during" and "after." Before addicted, I experienced many sexual images and thoughts (triggers) that did not trigger me. Perhaps, put another way, I had freedom of choice in whether I would allow them to trigger me. During the addiction, in its midst, only very hardcore images triggered me. Softcore or vanilla porn would not trigger me. At that point I had lost freedom of choice in what would trigger me. Now, after, in the quitting phase, images that society would not even consider pornography, for instance a swimsuit competition in a beauty pageant, might trigger me. OK, maybe not so much now, but certainly in the beginning phase of quitting, it would have.

Tomorrow I will be 6 months clean. No porn, no PMO, no MO, and consciously trying to avoid hypersexualized imagery running around in my brain. I have begun to notice that, while not fully recovered, I am able to experience things that, when I first began to quit triggered me. I still do not indulge in sexual imagery, but at the same time, not all sexual imagery triggers me. I am not quite back to the "before" stage and maybe I never will be, but I feel much more in control now. Interestingly, it brings us back to freedom of choice. While I have somewhat broken my "unconditional response" to porn, I can still trigger, I can still feel the desire to relapse. But, this far out, I feel I have much more strength to choose not to. I can still trigger, but this far out I also can choose not to relapse. Even if I trigger, I am not going back, but I choose not to trigger because triggering for me would still lead to some withdrawals, and I hate those.

For newbies, I believe avoiding all triggers is both helpful and necessary. This is not to say healthy sexual thoughts should be suppressed, but by "healthy" I mean "real." As in with a real, living, breathing, partner. Actual intimacy, not sex on a screen or in my head. Imagined sexual imagery should be avoided during the reboot; best guess, 30-90 days clean. WRA is a lesson, and I thank him for teaching us this lesson. We are not quit until it's over. As jilted says, we have to be "ever vigilant" until we have re-set. At 6 months out I still do not feel completely back to normal, but I am getting there, and avoiding triggers of all types is, for me, necessary; if not to avoid relapse, then to avoid withdrawals.

Thanks for posting. Reading posts and replying are part of my recovery. It gives me an opportunity to think about my problem.

Good luck on your journey.

PS. EarthDragon, your English is better than most English speakers, so keep posting.

 

Sexting, as in texting. As in sending and receiving texts, possibly combined with sexual photos, to people. Sometime the sender knows the person, sometimes, when in extension of an adult chat room, maybe not. Point: it is lingering on hypersexualized imagery or thoughts, which triggers dopamine release, which makes us want to relapse.

 

Oh okay, thank you, I'm not familiar with such things. Sexting is something that never really occured in my life. Also thank you William for your thoughtful and elaborate explanation. It's interesting to see, that while we all fight the same thing, the reasons are very different. The effects are different too. I just want to gather all the information I can, maybe somebody will need them. It certainly doesn't hurt to know more. Thanks again!