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Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by Susannah, Dec 8, 2018.
GhostWriter and I have PM'd each other, and we're good.
I see your point. I guess I just want him to see women as I see other men. I notice a nice looking man, but I don't visualize him naked, I don't think about him masterbating. In fact, sex with the man doesn't even enter my mind, I just say "He's a nice looking guy" and move on. I am just wishing that I had a man who if he sees a beautiful girl/woman, it naturally is only that... (as it is with me and other attractive men). It's just hard to swallow that he has to force himself into this behavior when it comes so naturally to me. He is the only one I can see myself sexually with, the only man I desire. I have my favorite male celebrities but I seriously don't fantasize about having sex with them. I want someone to hold me in the same position that I hold him. My one and only.
Thanks for this reply. Yes, I want him to be blind to other beauty because all he can see is what I have to offer in true love. He recently chose to appreciate other women watching trailers for sexually explicit movies rather than choose me... and then lie about it to hide it from accountability partners, his counselor and me... only when he got caught redhanded by me seeing his search bar, did he do something about it so that's what I'm talking about. I want him to choose me and all that that implies instead of what he gets from trailers or porn or other women on the street, or my daughter....
I know he's working towards it but it's so not fair that it doesn't come naturally like the way I feel toward him.
Admiration for you @NFL4!!
I'm glad there was some part of my response that you found useful. We all want our partners to feel towards us more like we feel towards them. I would absolutely love for my wife to be obsessed about having sex with me to the same extent that I am with her. We have different biology, different experiences and different personalities. We can, as partners in relationships, better communicate our wants and desires, and do our best to give our partner what they would like from the relationship. Doing this is always better than giving in and looking for fulfilment elsewhere, such as P, where there is no chance of rejection, but also no chance of true fulfilment and nothing but harm to come of it. Your SO will never do, think and want the exact same things as you, but that is okay. As he makes more progress he will bring his behaviour and his thinking more and more in line with what you want. The point I think I wanted to make was to be wary of setting your expectations too high.
In terms of your SO's behaviours, it seems as though he is very early on in his recovery, and has yet to learn how to really change his behaviour. Regular P use conditions the brain to perceive everything through a lens of sexuality, and it is a real shame that this has (I am assuming from your post) resulted in him even seeing your daughter that way. When offering advice I always tend to start from the assumption that the P user has had similar experiences to me with P, but for your partner it seems to have done much greater damage. If your daughter is under eighteen, and especially if your SO is her father, then I would prioritise her safety and comfort. I do not know the specifics of your relationship but you must not allow your SO to indulge in fantasies of this kind. If your daughter is an adult, not his child and he has confessed to having sexual thoughts about her, this is obviously hurtful and crosses so many boundaries, but the confession may have been made in the interests of full disclosure and honesty. However, if she is younger and/or his own child then there are serious problems that need addressing with much greater urgency. If the latter is true then make sure that you are prioritising her safety over his recovery.
At this point I am feeling a lack of relevant experience and insight needed to help with these specific circumstances, but there may be many other forum users that have lived through similar situations and have good advice to give.
I feel similarly about not wanting to be vegetables... but idk....
I get the metaphor but the way I am approaching this might not fit with the metaphor.
I have struggled (and very much still do struggle) with anorexia and thinking of myself as an object. Now... I have really struggled since my pregnancy. I am doing pilates, taking care of myself, but because I grew up with this one idea of what I had to look like Forever, and now that I don't look like that, I've felt more of a person, which has given me greater anxiety.
I think it's better for us to feel human than an object. I think yes we want to be desired, but I think it's okay to also have a partner respect you as well, and there should be balance...
So I swing back and forth, depending on my anorexia thoughts, but I think I wouldn't want to even be compared to porn in the sense to those women ("women" ... really just fake people with lots of airbrush, makeup, photoshop, surgery)... I think that it's sad that those "women" have to be so fake/miserable/used/etc. I think everyone has beauty, and yes there are things that are more aesthetically visually appealing but.... that shouldn't define beauty and happiness and love and respect.
I think no matter your looks, your husband should love You first and foremost, and those "women" shouldn't really be more than "they look nice".
My husband does not oogle or look at other women (or men for that matter, unless he thinks there is someone I find attractive). I usually am the one like, "did you see her" and my husband is utterly clueless. He checks out cars more than anything else. But, I have to say that I think there are men out there who see their women as the ideal (no matter her looks, they love her/appreciate her/desire her enough that SHE is the standard others have to live up to).
Even with my husband and his porn addiction.... he made it pretty clear I was The one sexually desired (aside from some low points in the addiction).
I think we need to redefine the whole vegetable and dessert thing. Or maybe we need to look at it differently.
I think maybe there is a difference (in general) between men and women.... and it shows in society too. Women, because of our history with being suppressed and not having rights, actually appreciate what we get, work for, and earn. We don't have a sense of entitlement. So when we get that job, we are damn proud and appreciate ourselves and the work we did to get there. Women have different body types then men, as in men don't hold fat deposits, whereas women do because they are the ones who give birth. There are physical differences. Women take pride in taking care of themselves because they value health (and some younger women who are not as mature, take care of themselves for beauty and more low self-esteem/vain reasons and not health as the main factor). I think women actually appreciate people around them, and appreciate their husbands. I think women do expect more socially, as in they expect teamwork, respect, desire, faithfulness, etc. And I am sure men expect similar things, but it's just what I've noticed in general... it seems men can be more selfish than women... as in it's always been the woman's role (historically) to think of others. So that could also be a difference that we are seeing today. Women think of the family, and the values, and men think about instant gratification.... not sure, just spewing thoughts...
But I think we woman are not in the wrong here. If we are "vegetables" then we have the right ideas/values/discipline/etc. Why do women live longer than men? Maybe because we really do value taking care of ourselves in mind, body and soul and do our best to be healthy. If men want "dessert" then don't get married. Don't get in a relationship, and have all the "dessert" you want and get "fat, and become unhealthy to the point that it's undesirable." The women who are "vegetables" are "healthy, and good, and beneficial, and also can be damn delicious with some spice and dressing" if you are following the metaphors.
I just think it's sad that I've seen on this forum that we women, who are healthy, who do work on ourselves in all aspects of our lives, want to be these "dessert" women who are not real, are stuck in bad situations (like being trafficked), and more. I don't think it's anything to be envious of.... I think we don't realize that we might be the real "dessert" just in disguise, and the men just miss out on our awesomeness because they are looking in the wrong direction.....
Don't know where I was going with this... but I did like this thread and this idea... I just found it sad that SO's often devalue themselves with the discovery of their PA's addiction, and the PA is so unhealthy they can't see the amazing women that has stood by them through thick and thin.... some days this stuff just gets me so down seeing all the pain. I just hope that everyone on NoFap no matter what they've done, their history, etc. can find healing, hope, and freedom from the pain addiction causes.
(btw wrote this before having coffee hence why my brain might not be fully connecting things)
This is the case although he admits to objectifying her in a sexual way the first time after seeing stepfather/daughter porn when she was 17. He says he can remember 4 times from age 17-18 and MO'd to thoughts of her MOing when she was 18. Yes, he told me in the interest of being completely honest and I know it was hard for him because he knew I would leave and I did, legally separated, in my own home with my daughter, she has not seen him since about a week after Dday when I asked him this fateful question, Have you ever thought of my daughter in a sexual way? She's protected first priority and she knows because she asked me. He never made her feel uncomfortable, she was absolutely shocked because he has been there for her as a dad for approx 5 years. Very sad circumstance and scars on her. This is what makes my situation so different. I'm a nurse, I understand addiction from working at a county jail for two years, I get it, and I tell you, I'd be fighting by his side if he hadn't crossed this line.
Hi Mordobarn, Thank you for your responses here.
Yes, I do take your point about language. But I don't believe I chose words that remove my power. I chose words that describe my situation. My husband says he wants to make the healthy choice to want me only. He wants to learn to value the admirable attributes that I have and that he knows he should want. And he says he knows he has to stop consuming “empty calories” (porn, young girls). He says these things in exactly the way someone says, “I really want that donut, but I really should have an egg white omelet. I’ll thank myself later.” Or in the way that someone says, “I’m going to eat whatever I want on vacation! I’ll eat healthy when I get back home.” His porn/ogling history does not reveal anyone that looks even remotely like me, but he says he wants me. Hard for me not to think I’m the vegetables he’s resigned himself to.
Very encouraging and beautiful post. Thanks!
Yes - it's hard to watch them throw away something we long for and it doesn't feel fair.
I saw a quote pop up on my facebook timeline the other day that may be relevant:
“Discipline is choosing between what you want now, and what you want most.”
He wouldn't stay with you if you weren't what he wanted most. I know it hurts to have times where he wants something else "right now", but that is hopefully changing.
Thanks for the encouragement. Some days I can believe he stays because I'm what he wants most and that he'll eventually learn to like vegetables. Other days I think he stays because he wants a maid.
There are a lot of responses to this thread that I haven't read through yet so I apologize if this has already been stated.
Porn is a fantasy. Fantasies are perfect. There's no reality that competes with a fantasy.
Except in one way.
Fantasies are fake. They aren't real. They are empty and void.
With good recovery your husband will not settle for you, he will prefer you. Because you are real. Because you offer him more than sexual pleasure. Because you offer him love and intimacy which can be expressed sexually. There isn't any love or intimacy in porn.
You're both in the early stages of this. Go work on yourself. Convince yourself that you are worth it. That the reality of a relationship with YOU is the dessert. He will come around if/when he does but if you believe in you, you'll know how to handle your relationship if he does or does not.
BTW, personal experience, been an addict for over 25 years, coming up on 9 years of recovery. I'd much rather have sex with my wife than beat it to porn.
Also remember: you're somewhat comparing apples and oranges (in keeping with your metaphor). Good recovery for him means just because he'd rather have sex with you doesn't mean he gets to whenever he wants. Porn doesn't get a headache or stressed or busy or tired but you do. He will have to want you _and be willing to wait for you_.
Thank you for your very kind response. You're quite right that I need to overcome my my demoralizing situation and recover myself, whether or not anyone ever sees me as dessert.