I hate men who blame women wearing skimpy outfits for their sex addiction

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by sclguy, Nov 27, 2020.

  1. I actually didn't phrase that the way I should have. You seemed to assume not only that attraction to the victim is a necessary condition for sexual assault (I still dispute that), but that the probability of assault scales with the degree of attraction.

    You cannot just assume either of these two clauses. An example of sexual assault not based on attraction is unsolicited physical contact in locker rooms, or other types of heterosexual-on-heterosexual assault for the purpose of bullying or humiliation. Honor rape and punitive forms of sexual assault are motivated by culture and law.

    Secondly, you would need to show a link between likelihood of assault and attraction. This would only account for cases where we can show that the assault is based on attraction, which is already put into question by the multiplicity of factors involved. Also, you would somehow need to measure both level of attraction and likelihood of assault, which I can't imagine are easy figures to calculate.

    Note: I am using the definition that sexual assault is unwanted sexual contact.
     
  2. chris555

    chris555 Fapstronaut

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    I hate people who blame their problems happening because they are a certain race.

    Instead of focusing on other people or race try to focus on yourself. You are most likely the problem and reason why your failing.

    God Bless.
     
  3. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I don't think it's harassment either. There must be objective criteria for defining something as harassment, otherwise anyone could find anything harassing. Remember that video of the "Hugh Mungus what?" lady? There was this SJW woman that asked a guy - really big guy, height-wise and weight-wise - "what is your name?" and he made a dad joke and answered "Hugh Mungus" and suddenly the woman turned into a wild animal accusing the guy of sexual abuse and harassment, screaming and harassing HIM in front of a crowd of people. I think as soon as someone is doing something that results in unavoidable harm/offense, physical or otherwise, it would be harassment. You can choose to not let words offend you (if they aren't inherently offensive). You can choose to fight an addiction. You can choose to look away if something offends you. I know many people that are offended by (sexual) violence or gore in movies, they just look away, because they can. That's why there are nude beaches and why there are laws against indecent exposure. Someone who doesn't feel offended by nudity can go to a nude beach, otherwise you have no control over someone exposing themselves in front of you against your will, which is why it's against the law. Seeing a woman in revealing clothes isn't the same as being naked. Not wanting to see someone's genitals is not about avoiding sexual arousal. Although I guess the line is a bit blurry. According to wikipedia, sexual harassment "involves unwanted and unwelcome words, deeds, actions, gestures, symbols, or behaviours of a sexual nature that make the target feel uncomfortable". And I think it still applies here that it's in your own control to not feel uncomfortable by looking away and not fueling your lust/addiction. Sexual arousal is not inherently/objectively harmful and you can avoid it if you want to.
     
  4. This is simply not true. I want to avoid it--but I cannot.

    For example, a few months ago when I was out for my 12-kilometer evening walk, I chanced to see a girl mounting a motorcycle behind her boyfriend. Sometimes around here girls will ride side-saddle (both legs the same side of the motorbike), and that would have been better for this girl, but, no, she swung one leg up and over the bike. I was walking on the sidewalk only about 5 meters behind them, and facing forward, not expecting to have my eyes greeted with the sight I had just then--for she was wearing just a really long shirt--and seems to have had nothing under it. I wasn't looking for this. It came to me, like it or not. It came during the time I was apart from my wife, and during the time I was going on total semen retention. It was most certainly an unwelcome sight, even if for only that moment. I complained against her in my mind, berating her for her "wardrobe malfunction" (choice malfunction, more like). But what could I do? She was a complete stranger, and was soon off down the road ahead of me, never to be seen again.

    I think women who wear skirts that do not cover the knees when seated have little idea how much a man might be tempted by this. The power of suggestion is a force to be reckoned with. And there are other "features" that can be suggestive as well.

    Female modesty has been going downhill for a long time already--dating back to at least the start of the women's rights' movement. As it has been a gradual decline, it has been well-nigh impossible for any man or woman to draw a line and say things have gone too far now. And as women's modesty has decreased with every generation, the prior generation, which was already immodest, seems modest by comparison with the present. Thus, with the current fashions being considered "normal," we have reached the point where people wonder why men are feeling hypersexualized. We have forgotten from whence we have fallen. Whereas women's attire and culture has changed, men's nature has not. And it won't, regardless of the "politically correct" pressure put on men to just "ignore" their passions or to blame themselves for them, since, of course, women could never be at fault when it's the man's passion involved, right?
     
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  5. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    You are talking from an addict's perspective. An addict does not have a healthy sexuality. Anything sexual that triggers dopamine release in your 'lizard brain' will try to take control of you and not allow you to be and act how you wish to. But you can choose recovery. And yes, even someone with a healthy sexuality will get sexually triggered by seeing natural, sexual triggers. But they too can choose to focus on something else, that isn't that sexual trigger. I can be on a strict diet and walk past a bakery and have dopamine released in my brain from seeing delicious cakes and pastries. I can keep standing there and keep looking and keep thinking about how good it would feel to eat those cakes and pastries, until eventually I would go inside and give in to my urges. But I can also resist doing that and just walk away. How do you think families can enjoy their time at the beach if every husband and boyfriend was just powerless to their instincts? How can male gynecologists do their job and live a normal life if they were constantly being forced to fantasize and relieve their constant sexual tension? What about photographers that take pictures for fashion magazines where women are naked or half naked?

    I don't advocate immodest clothing at all, as I've made clear, but I still believe in self-control, at least to a degree where it matters.
     
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  6. I don't deny that I had been addicted to sex and that I was in recovery mode by choice. But I tend to understand that sex addiction is normal (and healthy) for married couples. It seems, in my mind, that God created it this way--that couples would maintain an ongoing relationship with each other. In any case, I certainly did not stand there drooling. I didn't even have an opportunity for this, as the woman was soon long gone. It had been an unwelcome sight, one that I had not asked for. I don't think women get it. Men's arousal is autonomic. It doesn't require a choice. I'm not speaking merely of having an erection, either. I'm speaking of the entire nervous system response which involves a complex hormone system, testosterone being among the more prominent ones. When a man sees sexual imagery, whether he chooses to dwell on it or not, the body responds. Dwelling on it only magnifies the response, but there is a certain level of response that already happens, even if the imagery is immediately dismissed from the mind. The "tension," as you put it, is increased. I remember experiencing epididymal hypertension (it's a prolonged state of erection at only the base of penis, but being prolonged it can cause great discomfort or even pain--in my case it was painful) for days at a time during my first month or two of semen retention. (I'm sorry if this is TMI, but on a site like this I assume you're not naive.) I believe if I had been in an environment where I hadn't seen women, this may well have been different. Unfortunately, many of the women I saw every day were dressed with the intent of attracting some attention. Skin-tight leggings that left little to the imagination, suggestive outfits that showed far more than necessary...these sorts of images accosted me constantly. Men are bombarded with these on virtually a daily basis.

    Some here have spoken to the issue of rape and of women essentially "asking for it." I don't believe that the victims of rape are directly correlated with their apparel. I believe that the crime of rape increases, in general, because of the constant sexual stimuli that pervades society and to which men are at all times exposed. The rapist may not even choose an attractive woman--he'll just choose one that he can get. Some rapists don't even do it for the sexual pleasure, ironically; they do it just to feel power over the woman or as a means of getting back at women, taking out their frustrations against women in general on some random pick from among them. But if we trace back to the source of these frustrations, we may have to come to grips with some unwelcome truths, truths that are not "politically correct."

    I don't believe there should be male gynecologists. I believe this should be a woman's work. Many a man has fallen by such exposures, and many a woman has been embarrassed and uncomfortable exposing herself to a man in such a manner. More women need to study medicine and become doctors who specialize in women's health. Just because a man has the education and title of "doctor" does not mean he is suddenly immune to sexual stimuli--far from it. In fact, I tend to hold in suspicion the man who desires such an occupation to begin with. It seems a bit like the man who, in America these days, can simply declare that he is of female gender and is therefore eligible to enter the women's restroom. Nor do I think I am alone in holding such men in suspicion. It's hard to go against nature, and men are, by nature, easily visually stimulated. This is why porn is such a danger to men and to society as it is.
     
  7. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    Personally, I am kind of torn on this. On one hand, I totally get what you are saying. I experience triggers somewhat similar to this on an almost-daily basis and it becomes very tiring, especially when I am otherwise doing well on a streak. Now dont get me wrong, when I see attractive women when outside of my house, I avert my gaze. When I am triggered by something on the internet, I scroll away or close the tab. Sometimes it can be something someone has said, in which case I do my best to push it from my mind. My point is, I dont actively go looking for triggers, and I dont linger on them when I encounter them, but no matter how hard I try, they still pop up. I dont think its really all that bad to be frustrated by what could in some sense be considered "death by 1000 cuts" when it comes to being pushed to relapsing. I dont really even buy into the premise that all that many men genuinely do "blame women" for being addicted to sex or sexual activities or porn as opposed to just being irritated by triggers.

    Having said all that, it is also ultimately a self control issue. While it may be extremely hard to deal with triggers from annoying sources that hit you without you being able to stop it, and while male arousal is basically automatic in a physical sense, it is still not anyone elses responsibility but our own to deal with these things. Its not really feasible to just walk around with our eyes shut and our ears closed to anything that could be a possible trigger, so we must learn to prevent them from affecting us as much as possible, through disciplined effort.
     
  8. Serious question: what the hell does that mean?
     
  9. sclguy

    sclguy Fapstronaut

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    It means you're not an overly horny fuckrabbit who NEEDS his sex fix, has sex as focus in his life, makes bad (and risky) decisions due to horniness, but ALSO don't suddenly grow afraid of intimacy, sex and sexuality, nudity and the opposite sex as if THOSE things themselves were the Devil.

    They're not.

    What's wrong is our APPROACH to sex, using it as coping mechanism, mistaking pornography for real life,etc.

    But I also don't think there is a one for all formula. Overcoming addiction can be a very personal journey,and is very often linked to untreated traumas,fears, insecurities, etc.

    And I were a betting man,I would think that shaming others won't make anyone's recovery more effective or successful.
     
  10. I challenge you to find a person who doesn't objectify instagram models full stop.
    I challenge you to find an instagram model who is unhappy about that.
     
  11. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    . Pursue a career where the whole point is to be attractive to others.
    . Spend a long time creating photographs and videos that accentuate how attractive you are, use flattering shots, wear certain types of clothing, maybe even use software to enhance this content artificially.
    . Complain about being objectified by others when you literally did it to yourself.
    . ?????
    . Profit.

    Now maybe I'm just an incel gamer™ but I dont get why being objectified in this context is bad. Who exactly is it actually harming? Obviously in the context of porn addiction its bad but thats a different thing. I know if I was considered so incredibly attractive that people who I didn't even know lusted after me, I wouldn't be offended! This whole thing sounds like a "first world problem" to me.
     
  12. Wait, why are we talking about models? This conversation was about clothing. Now you are trying to shift the discussion to people being objectified based on profession rather than attire. But I'll address your weird irrelevant "gotchas."

    First of all, I literally don't objectify instagram models, because I have the basic mental capacity to understand the difference between humans earning money by looking pretty and being a literal sex object.

    Maybe some models don't care about some people objectifying them? I don't know. Their job is literally to be as attractive as possible in a way that is pleasing to (generally) men. Sure, a model probably doesn't care if some guy across the continent cooms to her while thinking she's a valueless human aside from her tiddies. But do you think they want people to view them that way IRL? Probably not.

    This conversation was about women in general wearing certain clothes and being objectified or harrassed because of it. It's very hard to know if a random woman walking in the street who happens to be wearing sexy clothes is an instagram model, so this doesn't really add to any argument.
     
  13. brilliantidiot

    brilliantidiot Fapstronaut

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    This is exactly right, when it comes to these kinds of people. 99% of their internet posts complaining about being "objectified" end with something like "now go subscribe to my onlyfans". My understanding is that where the conflict arises is when women who aren't technically associated with these whores get associated with them via their clothing.

    I'm not quite so sure why its such a big deal. I mean, the clothing you wear does reflect on you. If you're wearing cammos, its not unreasonable to assume you're in the military, if you're wearing a construction hat, its not unreasonable to assume you're in construction, etc.. If you're wearing an outfit that makes you look like a hooker, well guess what. People might assume you're a hooker.
    So my question is, why wear those kinds of clothes at all if you don't want that? The only point of those clothes is to exaggerate certain features of your body, with the intent of looking more attractive.No men walk around in speedos to show off the size of their parts.
     
  14. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    If I didn't know you were a regular and prominent user I would swear you were trolling by saying this. Some other guy brought up instagram, you responded, now Ghost is commenting based on what you said. He's only talking about instagram models because it was literally in a comment you posted. Its not like he brought it up out of the blue.
     
  15. And who does that? There's maybe two or three people who think like this on the site.

    What I gather is that many here including myself are damn tired of the oversexualization of anything and everything today. That's not the same thing as being anti-sex lmao. And it doesn't mean shifting responsibility either.
     
  16. Congratz. And what is that difference?

    EDIT: I've got it.
    So this is what the newspeak term means. Thinking that a woman who sells her nudes online is not worthy of the same respect as a nuclear engineer... what's wrong with that?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  17. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    Judging any group of people in such a generalised sense is usually bad bad, but it seems some women want it both ways. They want to make a living objectifying themselves for money but then claim a moral high ground when people call them mean words on the internet. Sorry, but if your primary source of income is showing strangers pictures of your boobs, or using your attractiveness to sell a product, then people are going to focus on those things. Is this correct? I dont know. I dont care. I dont care what women do. But thats the reality of life.

    I think part of this comes down to something another user said earlier, that men are inherently visually focused when it comes to sexual attraction. We see the attributes of someone we find attractive, and our brains and bodies react on that visual stimuli. While you can obviously control your reaction to what you see, I mean if we couldn't then rape would be happening every second of every day forever, but it doesnt stop that initial "damn she's hot, I want to have sex with her" reaction, even if that reaction is a flicker in the mind. I'll loop back to my initial point, that I dont think this is bad at all. Its natural for men to see an attractive woman and be attracted to them. Part of the reason I started NoFap at all was to regain that attraction so I could finally feel attracted to irl women again. Being desirable, wanting to be desired, and wanting to desire others, are all perfectly natural and raw sexual drive is a strong part of this. Its the porn addiction that messes this up for so many of us.
     
    brilliantidiot likes this.
  18. You don't know the difference between a model and a sex object? A model is a person who works in the beauty/fashion industry or is a social media influencer. A sex object is some thing with no human value that you put your d*ck into.
    I'm not sure what you're saying. I don't see how someone being a nuclear engineer or a sex worker has any impact on how much we respect them. You don't have to respect anyone if you don't want. That's on you.

    Yeah I responded to the first guy who mentioned instagram models to show how irrelevant it is. Same with this.
    Ideally, I would like for people to stay on topic but I can't really force them.
     
  19. This is word salad.
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Sorry you had a hard time understanding it.
     

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