I need your honest advice.

[1dayattatime]

Personally my journey went through a separation from my SO. You definitely need your own support network to help you through your problems and developing sobriety. I have a CSAT counselor and go to his therapy group. Both of those have been instrumental in my ability to heal from this. You have already identified some of your problems, there are definitely men like you out there willing to hear and support you.

 

[EyesWideOpen]

I should clarify that when I strongly suggest disclosing to your SO, I dont mean to do it impulsively and recklessly. Of course, it should be planned out with great care taken for both of you. Many find that the best way to disclose is therapist guided, in a controlled environment with help from a professional. Though if this is the route taken, the SO should have some idea of what is going to happen so as not be caught off guard or ambushed. Many find a letter is the best way. Others want it in person just the two of you, with no one else around, because they process things better alone. There is no right way to don but there are a lot of different ways. No matter what though, disclosure should happen because non disclosure nearly always, ALWAYS ends in disaster.

If you dont trust your wife enough to tell her, or feel she will not support you, or perhaps even react incredibly negative, maybe you are with the wrong person. You are hurting her with your PA/SA and it seems she is not an easy person to be around either. I have trouble understanding why one would choose to stay with a person that would make life so miserable that you can't share your secrets and ask for support and support her trauma in return.

 

[fadedfidelity]

What I have learned from the PA's on this thread:
1. Protect yourself at all cost, but pretend it's for the benefit of keeping hurt from your partner.
2. Trust is not earned, it is expected--even when broken time and time again.
3. I should be able to heal a relationship through secrecy, one sided knowledge, and even keep my privacy to evade discovery of deceit/repeated deceit.
4. Always blame your partner for your wrong doing and your guilt and your shame.

Using that information here is the spin zone.
I am your wife, cheating on you and paying for escorts and porn with your money. I ignore you emotionally and sexually while I get mine and masterbate to porn all day. I don't want to have sex with you because it is easier to do things myself while watching what turns me on. I occasionally give you a pity fuck to get you to stop whining. I suck in bed because you no longer turn me on after looking at hot young men with huge cocks and muscles all day, and I can't get wet due to my addiction. I make you only do the things I watch on porn, when I want it, and while thinking of the guys I have been with sexually or seen on porn videos. I tell you that you need to lose weight and gain muscle, and perhaps get hair plugs and a penis extension. You feel invisible and disrespected.
You think I don't love you anymore and think it's your fault that I can't get turned on in bed. You get depressed, feel inadequate as a man, rejected by the woman you love, and try everything you can think of to get my attention again. You don't know what is causing our relationship to crumble. I don't talk to you and open up when you ask to know what is wrong. So, you can't get a foothold of making changes or the right direction to help things.
I don't want to hurt you by telling you the truth and make my life more complicated than it already is by having to deal with your emotions that I caused you to feel. I waste your youth/years/life of potential happiness by keeping you in the dark. (You could either know the truth and stay to work on the relationship or leave me to find someone else that respects you.)
I think I can get better by keeping it all to myself, white knuckling it, and not be held accountable by anyone. Maybe I will stop doing one thing or another, but not stop it all. I will do it at my pace and if I change my mind, then no one is the wiser.
I refuse to give up my privacy and let you know everything I am doing and where I am going just to help you feel safe and earn your trust back. You just want all the power and control me if I have to do that!

Does this show you that I am willing to do what it takes to change and heal OUR relationship?? Or does this show you, husband, that I am getting mine and half ass working on things in the dark...where I am safe to continue my addictions if I want to since no one knows anyway.

 

[fadedfidelity]

Is this a sign that I may be with the wrong person if I don’t think she can help me through the reboot?

Here is the thing, man. She is not obligated to help you. This is your issue. You have a problem--in this relationship or any other one you may have in the future--due to sex/porn addiction. Do you think you could help your wife reboot after she did the same things to you?

 

[JKnight]

Actually, it's less dramatic than how it really is. And it's not an emotional appeal, that's what a porn addiction does to the partner of the addict. You dont have to like it or even believe it yourself for it to be true. I do, however, agree with you that he should seek out help from a 12 step program and/or a CSAT. Those will only aid in his recovery.

I'm sorry that you do not have the greatest relationship with your wife. You've mentioned it a few times. However, projecting your personal issues onto everyone else does no one any good.

Not that it's your business but my relationship with my wife is great. we are on great terms. What I mentioned was in the past, in the last year or so, our relationship has been doing great.

I am also not projecting anything. I am simply advising the most rationale thing and that is to ask someone qualified to help. Also, many posts in this forum are from SOs crying bitterly that they can't trust anymore or that they feel a shadow of their former selves, etc etc. I was not advocating for disclosure or for non-disclosure I was merely pointing out the pros and cons of each and saying that you need an expert or a guide and that's not anyone on this forum (unless they are actually qualified). You are misunderstanding my comment completely. And again, many addict recovery programs do not advocate disclosure until later on, so...recovery programs that have proven to work vs feelings.

 

[Deleted Account]

As a recovered addict AND a current SO...this is a hard one. I didn't come clean entirely in disclosure until after I started sobriety. My hubby knew some but details I left covered up awhile. Was it fair to him? No. Was it wrong to protect myself? Yea some. He didnt need triggered more than he was over my own issues

Ours is a unique situation.

From an SO standpoint. There aren't many who I believe truly have absolutely no idea their partner isn't doing something. I knew. Just not the extent. We did the therapy way of disclosure, which turned out partial because it wasn't all inclusive. Learning tidbits here and there sucks after a major bang in hearing details in what I thought was everything.

Do I wish I didnt read the disclosure? Yea. But if I hadn't read it I would have lived in the past. He wouldn't have learned what the extent was without seeing it all in one tidy bundle of papers. It was a mess.

We are still dealing with the aftermath.

I'm going to suggest you explain you have this addiction and are getting help. That you love her. And are doing this for yourself and her, ultimately the relationship.

Then see a csat and go from there.

Slamming a disclosure or telling her everything to her right off I dont think will help either of you. But let her know there's an issue in the relationship. If she asks questions...answer them. Completely. Honestly. If she opens doors, stand up and walk through them and man up to your mistakes. Take the ass reaming you'll probably get and...rightfully deserve.

You aren't a "bastard that doesn't deserve anything". You're a human being. We mess up. It's up to YOU to fix yourself. You can if you want to and being here taking first steps is huge.

You can do this. One step at a time. The more you let this eat at you in guilt the more you'll be triggered to run the cycle of addiction.

Prayers to you and your girlfriend. Stay strong. Stay positive and be the best you that you can be.

 

[JKnight]

What I have learned from the PA's on this thread:

More accurately, what you want to learn from the PA's on the thread. Literally none of those were hinted at, implied or explicitly said in any way shape or form. What we did learn from SOs is that they take things way out of context because...well...confirmation bias is a powerful thing and maybe a little victim culture as well.

Also, no one advocated for doing this by themselves. I'm pretty sure we were advocating getting help. Nor are we discounting nor downplaying the feelings or perceived hurt of the SO. Just that the situation is too complex and requires someone who is impartial and is qualified to advise with all the information including the private information given over by the PA about their relationships which is not being conveyed in a forum.

 

[need4realchg]

I have been in nofap for just under 2 months and I’m not trying to irritate those that have been hurt. So please take or toss what I’m about to say if you have evidence to the contrary, I find I learn so much more when I ask (instead of tell), so here’s what I want to ask:

*********************
How would a SO define the long-term impact of “disclosure”?

As an SO, Have you been able to forgive what you learned ?

If you had disclosure, Which details did you not find relevant for your relationship to restore itself?

When should a person acknowledge “permanent scarring” was due to disclosure?

Do you believe multiple d-days are preventable ?

If you had multiple d-days, why do you feel you experienced this?

******************

I strongly advocate a professional Intermediary is a strong ally. And dr.weiss— who i already cited; recommends 2 therapists present for a couple. One for the PA another for the SO. He said it’s too much for one therapist.

I understand based on Dr. Weiss comments in his lecture, that the intense pain and betrayal that is shared between SO’s becomes a quasi hive mind so let me try to ask I’m a way that is respecting your shared experience:

Can we agree that requesting a disclosure while the spouse is still inclined to hide their shame has a high probability to backfire?

If you see some stories where this tactic is used it’s like; they get a confession then a few months later get more and more and you find multiple d-days—- isn’t that all happening because the PA is still afraid to share where he is (honestly) with his SO???

The fear has to vanquished first. Not with force—- with love, with gentleness, with a soft approach. That’s what SO’s are normally experts at... (at least from a mothering perspective).

I liken it to Aesop’s fable: Once upon a time there was made a bet between the sun and the wind. For those who do not know it: these two elements made a bet to see who could remove the coat of a man walking by. The wind bragged how he would win, and proceeded to blow hard as he could. Of course the man, feeling the cold force, wrapped his coat tighter around him.

After minutes of ferocious winds the wind grew tired and allowed the Sun to have his turn. The sun shone warmly on the man and in turn the man, feeling comfortable again, removed his coat. At which point the sun won the bet.

Does force work? Are we trying in vain to force two people to love each other, be honest, and share their deepest thoughts via ultimatums and threats? Why?

Do confessions made under duress perfectly explain why there can be multiple failure points?

Consider talking to therapist requires level of trust, PA’s find it difficult to trust their SO, so the first lesson is to relearn to trust—- in order to share anything.

That is why I think I have encouraged the PA’s to develop their support network and get professional help—- that does comes before Disclosure. It’s a delicate step within a larger process. I have seen some comments That leave me to wonder if disclosure is done incorrectly SO’s are unnecessarily emotionally damaged...? Why would a guy willingly go through ALL the dday drama again? They are weighing what they expect versus what they are afraid of. Fear is so entrenched it’s mind boggling.

Men share, open up and trust those who agree to unconditionally respect them. Women are a different story I assume?

I encourage all of you to be gentle in your encouragement; I hope Its clear I’m rooting and encouraging you all too.

Blessings,

 

[Susannah]

Of course. You think all honesty doesn't hurt like hell and make someone reconsider the relationship even unjustly?

Hurtful facts may be revealed through honesty, but it is not the honesty, but the facts, that are responsible for the pain. If the receiver of said facts decides to reconsider the relationship, it may seem "unjust" to the presenter of the facts, but that is not something he gets to decide. The receiver is entitled to their own criteria by which to judge the situation.

the power shifts to the PA having to basically serve the SO and live without personal space and privacy just for the sake of rebuilding trust.

If an SO demands accountability post-disclosure in order to help with his or her recovery or sometimes at the PAs request, this does not amount to the PA being required to "basically serve" the SO. I imagine it might be quite uncomfortable and inconvenient to have to adjust to living with accountability if one is accustomed to having none, but this also happens to be a skill that will be required in one's future life as a recovering/recovered addict. In fact, I'd say it's a good skill for everyone and I'm basing this on the many times I've had to do it my life. It never felt comfortable, but it was worth it in the end.

just for the sake of rebuilding trust.

I find the "just" in that sentence very problematic. Trust is critical to a relationship. I think we often bestow a certain amount of "unearned" trust on our loved ones especially at the beginning of a relationship, then that trust either grows or is eroded over time. But trust that has grown over time, then is suddenly violated by a major betrayal, or has been violated repeatedly, can require intense and persistent effort to rebuild. It is up to the individual being asked to put forth that effort to decide if the price of the trust-building is too high. If sacrificing some personal space and privacy is too high a price, so be it. Move on. Find someone for whom trust in a relationship is not as important.

Personal space and privacy in a relationship is healthy.

I agree with you, as long as we are talking about a normal, healthy relationship. In a relationship where addiction (particularly sex and porn addiction) is present, privacy and personal space are the very things that have acted historically as cover for the development, flourishing, and hiding of the addictive behaviors from the SO and others.

It's also allows the SO to unjustly use the addict card to redirect responsibility and to shift blame for things that aren't due to the addiction. It's essentially a get-out-of-jail free card

This might happen and I can think of two possible reasons for it. 1)If this happens, it is a marker of other problems with the relationship and would likely happen in other contexts, even without the "addict card". 2)Those "things" might in fact, be related to the addiction but the addict can't yet see it, as in the case of denial. I have seen this in action with my own husband, who would often swear something had nothing to do with the addiction, only to come back 2 months later and admit that it had been completely driven by the addiction but he just couldn't see it at the time.

It's also allows the SO to unjustly use the addict card to redirect responsibility and to shift blame for things that aren't due to the addiction. It's essentially a get-out-of-jail free card and it's also a terrible horrifying secret that we don't want anyone else to know and now the SO knows it and there is no guarantee of them protecting that secret.

Why would you even want to be with an SO who would do those things? That sounds like either an extremely adversarial relationship or an extremely paranoid PA.

Of course there is a partnership even with this secret, that's a bit grandstanding.

I stand by my original statement here. If one partner is being deliberately deprived of relevant information (relevance not to be decided by the depriver,) by the other, especially so that the depriver can retain an advantage, that is not a partnership, in my opinion.

If the PA's behaviour is hurtful to an extreme where the relationship cannot exist, and is being actively sabotaged, that's all the information that's required. They don't need a whole psychological evaluation to make a decision here.

That is not at all clear to me. It might be very important to the decision-making process to know why the hurtful behavior is occurring. For example, someone may be behaving badly because they are a sociopath. OR they may be behaving badly because they have clinical depression or a hormonal imbalance. But the effects of both might feel the same to the one on the receiving end. What is missing is the information about why. When deciding whether to leave the relationship, I might make a very different decision based on the latter vs the former. In fact, many SOs, once informed about the true reasons for the PAs behavior, DO make the decision to stay and support the PA while they heal. We'll never know how many who were kept in the dark and finally threw up their hands and left would have joined that camp had they known the truth.

Another reason for needing the "whole psychological evaluation" is to help SOs who have been laboring under the mistaken impression that they, themselves or some deficit in them was the cause of their PAs behavior. An SO who internalizes this, never finds out the truth, and leaves the relationship, might always believe she was at fault.

This forum is filled with SOs talking about it and how they can never trust their PA again and they feel like killing themselves and how could they go on and stuff like that.

Yes. All that is true. I've experienced living in ignorance of the truth about my husband's addiction and I've experienced all those things you cite. I'll take the latter, please. And I'm glad he wasn't the one who got to decide for me.

mate, i disclosed to my SO. there was no dday or anything I chose of my own free will to disclose. There was no ominous foreshadowing of doom yet to come if I didn't. I chose to.

I'm happy to stand corrected here. I was sloppy in not indicating that the last bit of my response was directed at others, not at you. Please accept my apology.

Not disclosing is not being dishonest, it's just being secretive

We have to agree to disagree here. In my view, not disclosing is clearly a lie of omission.

no-one here is qualified to advise on the matter and they should seek qualified help before making a decision.

I'm all for seeking qualified help but I continue to see it as my right to be given information that has the potential to impact my life AND to decide if it is for my own good.

Maybe before marriage or just before having kids then it might be considered an informed decision to stay. Otherwise it's not an informed decision to stay it's a feeling of duty and obligation; of being trapped by external elements.

I'm not really clear about what you are saying here, but I'll proceed based on what I think you are saying. Yes. After disclosure, one might decide to stay out of a sense of duty and obligation and one might even feel trapped. And yes, from experience, I know that sucks. I don't, however, accept an "ignorance is bliss" argument as a way to avoid that situation. I'm not a four year old that needs to be told her dead dog has gone to live with a nice family in the country. I'd prefer to be respected enough to be given a chance to work with my partner to improve the situation and to glean whatever personal growth I can from it.

 

[Deleted Account]

If you see some stories where this tactic is used it’s like; they get a confession then a few months later get more and more and you find multiple d-days—- isn’t that all happening because the PA is still afraid to share where he is (honestly) with his SO???

I believe so. In some cases mine said he forgot. I think it's a combo.

The fear has to vanquished first. Not with force—- with love, with gentleness, with a soft approach. That’s what SO’s are normally experts at... (at least from a mothering perspective).

I agree somewhat...tough but gentle love works in my situation. @Mourde has a trigger and reason to shut down of fear of getting yelled at. I think he's finally understanding my "mothering" him in trying to keep him honest and motivated as well as standing up and being brave to face the fears to get the help is a huge step. He can free himself from EVERYTHING, and see yea...I'm gonna be upset but it's because I'm hurt and love him and want him to help himself.

Your questions, my personal answers:

How would a SO define the long-term impact of “disclosure”

Freeing. Closure. I can face the truth. The pain. And accept what was. I will NOT let the past define my future or hinder it anymore, as an individual or as a wife.

As an SO, Have you been able to forgive what you learned ?

Yes. The day(s) I learn, he is forgiven. I concern myself in that HE hasn't forgiven himself just yet.

If you had disclosure, Which details did you not find relevant for your relationship to restore itself?

Tough one. Probably places, specific details ie: positions, how long, the small details. Alot I asked stupidly such as: hair color...unimportant and irrelevant things that caused me more pain than necessary.

When should a person acknowledge “permanent scarring” was due to disclosure?

When they've sought their own therapy/physician and been diagnosed and will be treated for their lifetime physically and/or mentally.

I'll be honest. I consider myself "not the norm" here. I been through a lot of shit and won't ever see any physical and mental issues I'm battling now that came from previous and at the time of disclosure as "permanent". That's just me. I define my life. I define my body. Yes...it didn't help and broke me down but I'm not going to stay down and play the victim or toss around BT being bitter. I have my triggers and that will take time to heal but I'll be damned if I allow them to control my mind, body or spirit for a lifetime.

Do you believe multiple d-days are preventable ?

If you had multiple d-days, why do you feel you experienced this?

Yes and no. Preventable maybe IF enough time has passed for the addict to feel safe to disclose all remembered. If things were forgotten and/or buried too deep then that's an issue. I had one big day and many small ones. Like I said...fear and forget were Mourde's reasons.

Can we agree that requesting a disclosure while the spouse is still inclined to hide their shame has a high probability to backfire?

Yep.

Men share, open up and trust those who agree to unconditionally respect them. Women are a different story I assume?

Yep. We tell strangers our life stories at the grocery store if they listen. Maybe not all the details but women like to be "chatty"...maybe a little too much lol

I encourage all of you to be gentle in your encouragement; I hope Its clear I’m rooting and encouraging you all too

Great closing! It's so important to remember the PA is human. Is hurting. So is the SO. Everyone in this place is a victim. We all just act out differently as the victim. No one is winning on either side...its a team effort and a hard one. But we must find ourselves and heal individually before, during and after the shit hits the fan, so to speak, all while helping our partner.

 

[Mourde]

The journey is yours and how you take it is your choice to make in the end. There is no perfect way and there's no perfect answer but be ready not only for your pain but also your SOs pain as well! The only advise I would give is do your research and choose what is best for the both of you cause it's going to be a journey for her too! Best of luck!

 

[need4realchg]

@SOofanaddict Wow! for a “ not normal person” your insights are so refreshing to read—lol. I really appreciate the spirit behind message.

I laughed at how you modified love to : “tough gentle love”.

Where do you apply the toughness ? Where do you apply the gentleness?

I imagine (instantly) you are NOT the reason for his base fear, but his fear affects every interaction you probably have. Im guessing you both have learned to temper your tone , your timing, your body language, etc.

In other words applying the “you better tell me everything now” attitude would have spectacularly failed or produced a partial truth. correct ?

I understand what @Susannah means with “the lie of omission is still a lie”. I’d like to unpack that more, may I?

The following is a made up disclosure man to man:
“Bro, I just love me big-booty-hoes. I enjoy their way of talking, their fake ass weave, their long fingernails, their ghetto language, how they twerk and drop it like it’s hot! This one porn star had the perfect _____, and her _____ was ideal, etc. I loved her expression, etc. I want that _____.”


Okay same pretend-guy now writing his disclosure under duress for his wife to read:

“I have spent too much time fantasizing about black women, instead of thinking about you.”

Ok. You may think—- that’s silly, no guy would say all of that from the first example. But wait...why not ? Aren't those technically his feelings? What in this example is he lying about?

Q: What was omitted ?
A: His true feelings.


Why doesn’t he just share his true feelings about what he fantasizes about —damned be his SO?

Let’s be honest here, If A disclosure was being shared with another guy friend those colorful details would show up. Agreed?

The other difference between the two statements is one will has levels of detail and feeling the other will read like a police report. Lol.

Can we pose the question to the SO: why does your PA feel so scared of opening up? What reaction is he expecting (from you) that has him terrified?

We go back to asking : is the guy comfortable to share ? Are we “extracting” a confession?

Every cool spy movie, when they capture the guy they want to turn on his boss, they offer him a cigar, a cigarette, something to drink, etc. this kindness is intended to create rapport. I’m obviously not saying guys need cigars to open up, I am saying: “if a guy is lying about even if he’s lying to you—- then you know you don’t have any rapport established.” Another word for rapport is trust.

Kudos to you @SOofanaddict for determining what he was afraid of and how to manage that, instead of going all cia on his ass. Lol!

No offense bro @Mourde

I read your feedback on the benefits of disclosure and I think disclosure should serve as the tombstone in a difficult stage of your relationship.

An epithet , not a laundry sin-list :
“Here lies the full list of shit that was done in the name of _____ by _____. He buried it here in June 12,2019. “

What do you think?

 

[LifeTraveller]

I've read all you've been saying and I really appreciate your words, your time and your points of view on the topic, so thank you all.

I talked to her about it and after a tough night where I thought it was all over, she managed to try to forgive me as long as things change.
I feel free on one side and, obviously, on the other, terribly shameful. We ended up deciding I will give her free acces to absolutely every part of my privacy, things like not shuting the door of the bathroom or my office room are an example of this.

I have something to ask, will appreciate everyone's words but I'd really like to see what a SO thinks about this:
I know I can't stop feeling the shame, obviously, but this sets my mind on a "lower moral level mode" where I feel I'm "less" of a human than my girlfriend.
I know I have to overcome this because ALL this is a matter of attitude at most, and here comes my question: What do you think would be the best approach to rebuild trust, and a healthy relationship, where I can end up being myself again, the "me" version who she felt in love?

I don't want you to tell me "what to do", not at all, but would appreciate some details, some advices that I may have not thought about and could be helpful to make my partner feel better about all this process.

Once again, thank you all for the massive support.
Wish you all a great day

 

[Mourde]

No offense bro @Mourde

No sure what I was suppose to be offended by?
They fact you have an opinion or the fact you stated it either or no offense taken!

 

[Deleted Account]

Where do you apply the toughness ? Where do you apply the gentleness?

They tend to go hand in hand at times lol. Tough when he's in "addict mode", gentle when he's out of it. His days in mode are shortening and even becoming just moments which is awesome.

I imagine (instantly) you are NOT the reason for his base fear, but his fear affects every interaction you probably have. Im guessing you both have learned to temper your tone , your timing, your body language, etc.

Oh I'm sure I was a reason at times. I'm a short but rather...blunt woman. Being raised by my father and uncles basically put me in a position of being the woman that has a voice and uses it well when necessary.

Kudos to you @SOofanaddict for determining what he was afraid of and how to manage that, instead of going all cia on his ass. Lol!

Oh I've been CIA, FBI, and the entire squad all at once at times. But I've learned that doesn't work for either the addict or the partner. Not in our specific case. It doesn't change anything with details. At times the details do help though to determine why what was done was done.

An epithet , not a laundry sin-list :
“Here lies the full list of shit that was done in the name of _____ by _____. He buried it here in June 12,2019. “

What do you think?

I agree. With the understanding He buried it yet she, naturally, needs to mourn. With any grief I feel just as with death we need to mourn then move ahead. If the addict doesn't keep his shit list buried and doesn't add to it well then...time to find out why the "zombie" won't lay at rest.

 

[Deleted Account]

I've read all you've been saying and I really appreciate your words, your time and your points of view on the topic, so thank you all.

I talked to her about it and after a tough night where I thought it was all over, she managed to try to forgive me as long as things change.
I feel free on one side and, obviously, on the other, terribly shameful. We ended up deciding I will give her free acces to absolutely every part of my privacy, things like not shuting the door of the bathroom or my office room are an example of this.

I have something to ask, will appreciate everyone's words but I'd really like to see what a SO thinks about this:
I know I can't stop feeling the shame, obviously, but this sets my mind on a "lower moral level mode" where I feel I'm "less" of a human than my girlfriend.
I know I have to overcome this because ALL this is a matter of attitude at most, and here comes my question: What do you think would be the best approach to rebuild trust, and a healthy relationship, where I can end up being myself again, the "me" version who she felt in love?

I don't want you to tell me "what to do", not at all, but would appreciate some details, some advices that I may have not thought about and could be helpful to make my partner feel better about all this process.

Once again, thank you all for the massive support.
Wish you all a great day

Great news! Congrats on a big step!

Advice would be to get therapy from a CSAT, find an accountability partner and work on yourself. You are not less than anyone, and need to realize that. Reach out, read all you can and learn and be consistent in change and your promise to her. You got this! Good luck and prayers to you both

 

[MaxP71]

What do you think would be the best approach to rebuild trust, and a healthy relationship, where I can end up being myself again, the "me" version who she felt in love?

Great job on having that difficult talk! I agree with everything that SOofanaddict said about what you can do next. My other suggestion for rebuilding trust would be to include your girlfriend in the process as much (or as little) as she is comfortable with. If she wants a lot of details about everything you're doing and reading and talking about, tell her. If she's not ready for all that, be patient and don't overshare. Listen and respect her boundaries. Let her know that you are taking responsibility for fixing yourself; you aren't expecting her or anyone else to do it for you. If you're like me, you're surely impatient to make everything better right away, but it takes time, and you really have to get yourself under control first.

 

[JKnight]

Hurtful facts may be revealed through honesty, but it is not the honesty, but the facts, that are responsible for the pain.

Honesty is just a revealing of something. That revelation of something can cause hurt. Facts are impartial, it is how we interpret and personalise that fact that causes those emotional reactions. For example, the addiction is a psychological problem that doesn't really have anything to do with SO or reflect on them. I don't believe porn cheating but others do (I do draw the line at webcams and interactions with actual people). Now you can feel pain that the PA has an addiction for him, you can reflect on the calibre of person you are with or pity them or you can personalise it as you want and feel all that pain you go through. Again, I reiterate, i'm not discounting what you feel.

And before someone goes off the deep end, some actions are inherently personal and hurtful like someone actually physically cheating on a spouse or murder. There, the fact and the personalisation of that fact are inextricably linked.

If the receiver of said facts decides to reconsider the relationship, it may seem "unjust" to the presenter of the facts, but that is not something he gets to decide. The receiver is entitled to their own criteria by which to judge the situation.

Of course it is his decision.

For 2 reasons:

1. I can't speak for others but this is the thing I loathe about myself, probably one of the only things I loathe about myself. And you want me to tell you that, knowing that it's going to cause you a world of pain and that the likelihood of you not discussing this with someone else is probably slim. Ultimately, this is my secret and I get to decide if I want to be vulnerable enough to tell you. And then bear the consequences of whatever comes from my decision just like any other decision I make. Before someone goes off the deepend, I'm not saying this to justify non-disclosure and I will discuss this later
   
2. What if disclosing now is the worst thing for the recovery? I'm not saying this as a cop-out, but again, the 12-step program does highly advise non-disclosure until later for a reason.
   
   Imagine the following scenario. PA discloses to his/her SO. She reacts as expected and he gets fearful and vows to recover. He gets an AP, maybe even a therapist. But he's scared and he relapses a bunch of times. She is also constantly mad at him throughout this time, feels betrayed and angry and the efforts that he is making to rebuild trust is having no effect, which is causing him more panic and self-doubt and so he relapses another bunch of times. and then slowly but surely trudges along after some time and manages a good streak, things change but his relationship is rocky, but he manages to hold in to get clean.
   
   Imagine a different scenario. Man realises that his relationship is getting bad or is scared that his wife will find out or that his addiction is getting out of hand or whatever other triggers for recovery he could have without his wife confronting him. He tries taking it the first time alone and fails. He gets back up and vows again and goes to see a therapist or joins a program. His relationship with his SO is still bad, and she still suspects foul play. The therapists or the program advises to disclose later when he has been in recovery for a bit and achieved a significant milestone. He follows the advice and starts recovering. He is anxious to recover and he falls a few times, but has a strong support group and someone to turn to, so he gets back up and starts again. During this time, he is being advised on ways he can make it up to his SO, so he makes concerted effort to be sincere and loving. She rebuffs him a few times, still suspicious, but after a while, seeing that he is being genuine and not fueled by guilt of getting any sort of side deal, accepts his advances, but is cautious. He might slip once or twice and things might reset, but he gets back up because of the support he has and he makes more effort on his relationship. She is still cautious, maybe a little suspicious. After time, she sees him making a lot of genuine effort, and whilst she hasn't forgotten the old stuff, she is hoping the new him will stay and isn't a dream. After considerable effort, he makes it to his milestone. At this point, the therapist or the program advises him to disclose but properly. Saying, something that he is sorry for his behaviour before, he suffered from an addiction to pornography, and it was effecting the relationship, make a few affirmations that it wasn't her fault and whatnot. say that he has been getting help and that he was advised by a professional not to disclose, even though he wanted to, until he reached a certain point in his recovery. Apologise profusely that he couldn't say earlier and that he was addicted and all the problems that he caused.
   
   Now you can disagree and tell me that these don't reflect reality and I might accept that. This is quite a simplified version of what might happen. But which is ultimately better for his recovery and your relationship? because if he can't recover, it doesn't really matter about the relationship.

If an SO demands accountability post-disclosure in order to help with his or her recovery or sometimes at the PAs request, this does not amount to the PA being required to "basically serve" the SO. I imagine it might be quite uncomfortable and inconvenient to have to adjust to living with accountability if one is accustomed to having none, but this also happens to be a skill that will be required in one's future life as a recovering/recovered addict. In fact, I'd say it's a good skill for everyone and I'm basing this on the many times I've had to do it my life. It never felt comfortable, but it was worth it in the end.

I am all for accountability. I think it's a huge part of recovery and anyone who truly endeavours to recover should have safeguards. The internet on my phone is filtered on my mobile phone plan side and I can't undo that without calling up and specifically asking some religious guy that I would like to uncheck a setting whose sole purpose is to block porn on my phone on their side. I never really used my phone for surfing anyway. My computers have been filtered and only my wife has the password to override it. And i have other secondary support and backup systems. None of it is a guarantee, but it helps a lot. Where I disagree is who should be the accountability partner. Having the SO as the accountability partner is more likely to cause heaps more anxiety than should be which is a trigger for relapse. It is unhelpful and inappropriate. Rather someone nonjudgmental and impartial is more appropriate.

I find the "just" in that sentence very problematic. Trust is critical to a relationship. I think we often bestow a certain amount of "unearned" trust on our loved ones especially at the beginning of a relationship, then that trust either grows or is eroded over time. But trust that has grown over time, then is suddenly violated by a major betrayal, or has been violated repeatedly, can require intense and persistent effort to rebuild. It is up to the individual being asked to put forth that effort to decide if the price of the trust-building is too high. If sacrificing some personal space and privacy is too high a price, so be it. Move on. Find someone for whom trust in a relationship is not as important.

I agree with this. The same thing goes with respect. Both must be earned and actions can deteriorate or nurture both. But the key word you used is 'some' privacy and personal space. My issue is with sacrificing all of it. That's not worth it and that's not trust. It's basically saying that you can exist so long as everything you do is logged.

This might happen and I can think of two possible reasons for it. 1)If this happens, it is a marker of other problems with the relationship and would likely happen in other contexts, even without the "addict card". 2)Those "things" might in fact, be related to the addiction but the addict can't yet see it, as in the case of denial. I have seen this in action with my own husband, who would often swear something had nothing to do with the addiction, only to come back 2 months later and admit that it had been completely driven by the addiction but he just couldn't see it at the time.

With the second thing, then it was due to the addiction. With the first, it's still being used a cudgel for irrelevant things. Rather deal with the issue that's causing instead of waving it around as a baton because the actual root cause of the issue is unsure. It only creates deeper wounds of mistrust. I'm not so sure that these are the only 2 scenarios. I have seen, worked with and dated women (and I was recovered from my earlier addiction from when I hit 20 to 2 and half years into my marriage, which was 6 years later, so you can't blame my addiction for this) who could be quite vindictive and I do not believe they are exceptions to the rule. There are those that are amazingly kind and compassionate and those that aren't.

That is not at all clear to me. It might be very important to the decision-making process to know why the hurtful behavior is occurring. For example, someone may be behaving badly because they are a sociopath. OR they may be behaving badly because they have clinical depression or a hormonal imbalance. But the effects of both might feel the same to the one on the receiving end. What is missing is the information about why. When deciding whether to leave the relationship, I might make a very different decision based on the latter vs the former. In fact, many SOs, once informed about the true reasons for the PAs behavior, DO make the decision to stay and support the PA while they heal. We'll never know how many who were kept in the dark and finally threw up their hands and left would have joined that camp had they known the truth.

Another reason for needing the "whole psychological evaluation" is to help SOs who have been laboring under the mistaken impression that they, themselves or some deficit in them was the cause of their PAs behavior. An SO who internalizes this, never finds out the truth, and leaves the relationship, might always believe she was at fault.

See my answer (2) above. I think we are seeing this as different sides of the equation: the PAs recovery vs SOs peace of mind and decision-making process.

I do want to reiterate at this point that if disclosure is the only real trigger that could cause the PA to recover or has no plans to recover, then disclosure is must as her right to a peace of mind and honesty either outweighs his right to maintaining his secret or because it is the catalyst to recovery. I only argue this balance when it is a question of good recovery but non-disclosure at the beginning. And again. Disclosure should occur, the difference is whether it should happen at the beginning or later when the PA has reached a milestone in his recovery.

Also, I think that one should disclose at the beginning of the relationship if he trusts her, while he is listing other medical issues, as a preemptive action taken against future issues. This question only comes about when they are already in the middle of the their relationship and the addiction starts causing real issues with their relationship.

I'm all for seeking qualified help but I continue to see it as my right to be given information that has the potential to impact my life AND to decide if it is for my own good.

You do. And as I said above, it's not a question of if, it's a question of when disclosure should happen. That should be up to the experts and not base on the opinions of either PAs or SOs.

 

[JPDrive]

She is not obligated to help you. This is your issue. You have a problem--in this relationship or any other one you may have in the future--due to sex/porn addiction. Do you think you could help your wife reboot after she did the same things to you?

Well put.

While it is my issue, she is clearly involved as a victim.

The reality is we are both out of our league here.

We both try to help each other, but we struggle with emotional challenges.

We’ve been together a long long time. There are battle scars.

Relationships are not so simple as can we rebuild trust and grow and support each other? I wish it were so simple. I mess up. She messes up. We argue. I manipulate. She doesn’t fight fair. We both struggle.

She is totally the only woman I want to be with. She understands me better than I understand myself. In my darkest days when I could not even function or make a decision for myself, I relied on her reason when mine failed me.

Her darkeat days? Those happened before we met, but I try as hard as I can to make her feel secure and safe. I reassure her that what happened in her past is in her past. Her fears that it will happen again are unfounded.

How do I convince her it is safe to invest in her future when she’s had the rug pulled out from under her without warning in the past?

Things are not so simple. We are both growing as a couple and as individuals. We are both amazing in some ways and very damaged in others.

Lots of food for thought. I appreciate everyones ideas.

 

[The Wrestler]

I just don't understand how can I love so much someone and yet do this.
I feel like a bastard who doesn't deserve anything.

These two thoughts will drive you into the waiting talons of porn.

Why are you hiding from the one person who could be your biggest supporter? Your biggest fan, coach, and cheerleader?