If we both did what I’m doing where would our relationship be?

[CrushedandLeaving]

Did she treat you like this before she found out about the betrayal? I'm not gonna lie, I went from treating him with near worship (I made more money and would put things in our budget for him that really didn't belong, I did pretty much every chore and errand, the way he wanted them done, if there were choices to be made it was always with his preferences in mind, supported his hobbies, words of affirmation every day, constantly trying to initiate some form of intimacy with him, always trying to get us to spend quality time together, bragged about him to everyone) to being what pretty much anyone would describe as "mean", so my immediate instinct is "of course she's mean

 

[Deleted Account]

Did she treat you like this before she found out about the betrayal? I'm not gonna lie, I went from treating him with near worship (I made more money and would put things in our budget for him that really didn't belong, I did pretty much every chore and errand, the way he wanted them done, if there were choices to be made it was always with his preferences in mind, supported his hobbies, words of affirmation every day, constantly trying to initiate some form of intimacy with him, always trying to get us to spend quality time together, bragged about him to everyone) to being what pretty much anyone would describe as "mean", so my immediate instinct is "of course she's mean

No she was never like that. She was just less angry. She always has to be in a one-up position.
She really hates my recovery because I have more self-esteem but am also more measured. I will be kind, gentle, understanding but don’t need her approval to be ok like I used to.
She fears not being in control.
So she didn’t have near as far to fall as you did because she wasn’t as all-in as you were.
I was unhealthy when I picked her. She was unhealthy when she picked me. It’s not her fault that I was unhealthy but it’s her fault that she refuses to do any work to get healthy.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

If you've no children, just leave and start a new relationship. I know that's probably not what you want to hear, but you're painting the picture of a pretty hopeless scenario.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think this song expresses it well.
I couldn’t find it in English.

 

[ANewFocus]

I think you are doing the right thing. I don’t now how long you’ve been sober or in recovery, but continuing to show grace, grow as a person and model healthy behavior in your relationship is a strong way to re-build the relationship. You may reach a point where she is no longer interested in change or building a happy relationship, but as partners we should be patient for several years to give our partners time to recover on their own.

The important thing is to know when her hurt is talking and know where that comes from and continue to show her grace. And if it’s tough, come here and vent, just as you did.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think this is on the minds of a lot of people on this forum.
SHOULD I CONTINUE TO FIGHT FOR MY RELATIONSHIP?

 

[used19]

No she was never like that. She was just less angry. She always has to be in a one-up position.
She really hates my recovery because I have more self-esteem but am also more measured. I will be kind, gentle, understanding but don’t need her approval to be ok like I used to.
She fears not being in control.
So she didn’t have near as far to fall as you did because she wasn’t as all-in as you were.
I was unhealthy when I picked her. She was unhealthy when she picked me. It’s not her fault that I was unhealthy but it’s her fault that she refuses to do any work to get healthy.

I never wanted to control my husband in anyway, so your wife and I are quite different. But I will say that we were together for 19 years before I found out about any of this crap. I got really used to him never having an opinion. Really used to having to be the one to drive every situation that needed an opinion, a plan, an emotion….. I got used to railroading over him because I could never extract anything anyway. I’ve had to slow down and check myself now that I’m married to someone who finally has emotions and opinions. Every once and a while I find myself feeling a little pissy that I can’t just plow forward with something - it’s a mean feeling and I don’t like it, but it’s taking some time to adjust. I imagine if she’s being really unwilling to commit to new dynamics in your relationship that she’s finding it weird that her world is changing across the board now that you are trying to engage in a healthy way.

 

[Psalm27:1my light]

I never wanted to control my husband in anyway, so your wife and I are quite different. But I will say that we were together for 19 years before I found out about any of this crap. I got really used to him never having an opinion. Really used to having to be the one to drive every situation that needed an opinion, a plan, an emotion….. I got used to railroading over him because I could never extract anything anyway. I’ve had to slow down and check myself now that I’m married to someone who finally has emotions and opinions. Every once and a while I find myself feeling a little pissy that I can’t just plow forward with something - it’s a mean feeling and I don’t like it, but it’s taking some time to adjust. I imagine if she’s being really unwilling to commit to new dynamics in your relationship that she’s finding it weird that her world is changing across the board now that you are trying to engage in a healthy way.

Omg so much of this. My husband literally abdicated any responsibility in making decisions. About the kids, the house, our finances. He would often say “ I’ll make the money, you decide how to spend it, I have decision fatigue”. It was frustrating in the beginning because I wanted to talk, share, but I adjusted. Now, I’ll make a decision, and he will be like “ why didn’t you talk about it with me?”
Honestly, because for 30 years that’s how you decided it was going to be. Now you want me to suddenly change? Now you want to talk?

 

[used19]

Omg so much of this. My husband literally abdicated any responsibility in making decisions. About the kids, the house, our finances. He would often say “ I’ll make the money, you decide how to spend it, I have decision fatigue”. It was frustrating in the beginning because I wanted to talk, share, but I adjusted. Now, I’ll make a decision, and he will be like “ why didn’t you talk about it with me?”
Honestly, because for 30 years that’s how you decided it was going to be. Now you want me to suddenly change? Now you want to talk?

Yep. It’s a hard dynamic to unlearn even if you want to. Plus I already feel like I have so much on my plate running our family that I don’t get enough done ever. I’m used to just going, going, going - get it all done as fast as I can because there is always more that I have to decide, work on, put into motion. I do like that now I don’t have to have the full weight of decisions falling upon me (cause when that happens and it doesn’t go well then I feel like crud), but after this many years it is not ingrained in me to include him. I’m sad that I can’t just get my brain to adapt to having him present. I can see that it hurts him when I either forget or am frustrated that I have to slow down. It’s an unfortunate consequence that happened as a result of all of this.

It’s kind of a hard place to be in emotionally. And again, I’m not even remotely trying to say that all of us SO are free of issues that negatively impacted our relationships, I know I have issues that make this hard too. But like it or not, we were establishing functional dynamics in our relationships all these years. We got set in ways based on what was happening. And unfortunately due to our partners hiding themselves and their problems from us, we built all these dynamics on something that isn’t the reality now. We tend to only focus on talking about the trauma that wives go through. But there is such a giant adjustment to our lives that isn’t necessarily the trauma. It’s like we’ve been solo parenting, solo living, whatever you want to call it and all of a sudden there (yay!) is a fully functional person with us, who has all his own feelings and opinions and even just presence that wasn’t on our radar for a long time. We got used to side stepping him, working around him, minimizing the interaction so it wasn’t a problem. Now he’s here helping, present. It’s great. But we aren’t used to it. And sometimes we don’t know what to even do. I often feel at a loss because here are all these new emotions and reactions that I *should* know how to handle like a pro. We’ve freaking been together 24 years, I should be an expert in him. And yet sometimes it feels like I went out and adopted him and I have no idea how to comfort him even though I should know. I want to love him and include him, but I do have to admit it is harder than I thought it would be to adjust, even to something great happening. And sometimes the tired mom in me is a little peeved that I have a little more on my plate having to rework a lot of the systems that had become routine. Guess one benefit in all this is we’re all learning how to be brutally honest.

 

[used19]

So when I wrote all of that, it’s not to dismiss or diminish even anything that you posted. It’s an attempt at an insight to maybe some things she might be experiencing BUT because she is currently choosing the path of inaction (not committing, not leaving) it’s making things very confusing and painful for you. I can see that it is really frustrating for you and I hope that path opens up soon.

 

[Deleted Account]

So when I wrote all of that, it’s not to dismiss or diminish even anything that you posted. It’s an attempt at an insight to maybe some things she might be experiencing BUT because she is currently choosing the path of inaction (not committing, not leaving) it’s making things very confusing and painful for you. I can see that it is really frustrating for you and I hope that path opens up soon.

I’m happy to have all of the insights of different ones on here. Thanks for sharing your input.

 

[Warfman]

I think this stuff gets tricky because everyone and every couple is different. I have to admit, the comments I'm reading trigger me. If I were hearing that from my wife I would say, I've tried telling you. I tried communicating, I've tried to help with the kids, I've tried voicing my perspective on things like parenting, I told you I didn't want armoire in my office, I tried to include you on the front porch, I've tried to compromise on holidays, the list goes on and on.

I get bulldozed by my wife, it drives me crazy. When I read these posts, whether it's intended or not to imply, I hear, it's all your addiction, and if it wasn't for that none of this would be a problem. My thought on that response.. no there isn't space for my thoughts, feelings or opinions. You have your "picture" and that's final. There's no room for compromise, no room for me, no room for us! Is that addiction talking? Is that the only reason? No, it's definitely not the only reason.

I used to enjoy watching HGTV. I can't stand it anymore. It's too triggering thinking of all the fights we've had over remodeling. The times where I forced my way are still unresolved conflicts. Even though the immaculate cabinets I choose to buy for the utility room regardless of if she thought we needed them are completely full and about the only functioning part of our house. No, I tried, even in my darkest times, to communicate and work together.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

I think this stuff gets tricky because everyone and every couple is different. I have to admit, the comments I'm reading trigger me. If I were hearing that from my wife I would say, I've tried telling you. I tried communicating, I've tried to help with the kids, I've tried voicing my perspective on things like parenting, I told you I didn't want armoire in my office, I tried to include you on the front porch, I've tried to compromise on holidays, the list goes on and on.

I get bulldozed by my wife, it drives me crazy. When I read these posts, whether it's intended or not to imply, I hear, it's all your addiction, and if it wasn't for that none of this would be a problem. My thought on that response.. no there isn't space for my thoughts, feelings or opinions. You have your "picture" and that's final. There's no room for compromise, no room for me, no room for us! Is that addiction talking? Is that the only reason? No, it's definitely not the only reason.

I used to enjoy watching HGTV. I can't stand it anymore. It's too triggering thinking of all the fights we've had over remodeling. The times where I forced my way are still unresolved conflicts. Even though the immaculate cabinets I choose to buy for the utility room regardless of if she thought we needed them are completely full and about the only functioning part of our house. No, I tried, even in my darkest times, to communicate and work together.

I may have asked you this before, but is your fapping a big issue in your relationship? I can't remember you emphasising it as a particular trigger or problem for your wife. I always assumed your abstinence was self-motivated rather than precipitated by some ongoing marital dispute about it.

 

[Warfman]

I may have asked you this before, but is your fapping a big issue in your relationship? I can't remember you emphasising it as a particular trigger or problem for your wife. I always assumed your abstinence was self-motivated rather than precipitated by some ongoing marital dispute about it.

It's an issue she has, specifically on MO I asked about it. She seemed to be of the mind that is ok, but not in excess. PMO crosses the line.

I feel it is self motivated, I'm tired of the old cycles for sure.

What triggers me specifically and why I posted yesterday is that everything is my fault. 100 percent of the time, if she does something wrong, it's because "I" made her do it. Some comments here make me feel that same way. I feel that needs voiced by someone.

 

[Psalm27:1my light]

It's an issue she has, specifically on MO I asked about it. She seemed to be of the mind that is ok, but not in excess. PMO crosses the line.

I feel it is self motivated, I'm tired of the old cycles for sure.

What triggers me specifically and why I posted yesterday is that everything is my fault. 100 percent of the time, if she does something wrong, it's because "I" made her do it. Some comments here make me feel that same way. I feel that needs voiced by someone.

Was she that way before you confessed? I think if she has always been that way, not much will change just because you change. For many of us ( not all by any means) we spent the entire relationship blaming ourselves for everything that was wrong. We spent countless hours reading self help marriage books, setting up date nights, surprising our husbands with weekends away, initiating sec and buying lingerie. Hours in the gym, nails done, etc. You get the picture. Those of us who are here are obviously invested in change and helping. Now, that might look different to an addict than it does to an SO. What may help an addict is completely different than what may help an SO. I will say, I’m sorry she cannot take responsibility for her emotions or her healing. There are many betrayed partners who work tirelessly at healing and just as many who refuse to face the truth and take control of their healing.

 

[Deleted Account]

Was she that way before you confessed? I think if she has always been that way, not much will change just because you change. For many of us ( not all by any means) we spent the entire relationship blaming ourselves for everything that was wrong. We spent countless hours reading self help marriage books, setting up date nights, surprising our husbands with weekends away, initiating sec and buying lingerie. Hours in the gym, nails done, etc. You get the picture. Those of us who are here are obviously invested in change and helping. Now, that might look different to an addict than it does to an SO. What may help an addict is completely different than what may help an SO. I will say, I’m sorry she cannot take responsibility for her emotions or her healing. There are many betrayed partners who work tirelessly at healing and just as many who refuse to face the truth and take control of their healing.

And likely the ones who refuse to look at their part at all won’t be on this forum. Good point

 

[Deleted Account]

Just made me remember a small point.
Wife used to try and do things to please me and I always appreciated it. She says I didn’t because I was never satisfied.
We would have a nice make out session, good sex, nice date, good conversation, whatever, and I would be happy and want to do it again. She would always say, “You’re so needy. You’re never satisfied.”
Instead of just owning HER side and saying, “I understand you liked … and we had a good time. I liked it to. But I don’t feel like doing that again right now.”
She had to lay blame on me. YOU’RE too needy. The defect is you and your needs. Great want to make someone feel like they don’t matter and unwanted.
I’m not big on blame. I have no problem saying I’m sorry. But she is OBSESSED with whose fault anything is.
I think it’s a family of origin thing that predates me. But I wish she would go to therapy and dig into some of that stuff. It’s really toxic.

For a long time I believed it. I believed there must be something wrong with me and that’s why everything was my fault. It even ties into porn a little. A lot of the time when I was searching things that ended up in porn I was searching for something to tell me why I wasn’t sexually attractive and why I wasn’t getting the response that the women seemed to have in porn. I know that is foolish thinking but it was part of it.

Only with therapy did I start to see myself in a more compassionate way.

 

[Warfman]

Was she that way before you confessed? I think if she has always been that way, not much will change just because you change.

Yes she was, however, I've been told many times, and reminded often. That my addiction predated the confession, here on NF. Which is completely true. I think this isn't always as black and white as it gets portrayed especially on this site. I'm not saying anyone is wrong in that they've experienced. Just that when I hear those comments, I cringe thinking of how many times I've been gaslit myself. And yes.. it's possible for an addict to be gaslit... And it's possible for two people in a relationship to be abusing each other in their own unique ways.

Those of us who are here are obviously invested in change and helping.

I think some are, some others aren't here to change and help at all.

I will say, I’m sorry she cannot take responsibility for her emotions or her healing.

Thanks, it does suck. The main reason I said anything is because so often 100 percent of the blame gets put on the addict. And that's not right, it is an invalidation of someone else. That's not to take away anything from anyone else and their experiences either. I truly believe your and @used19 stories.

 

[Warfman]

She would always say, “You’re so needy. You’re never satisfied.”
Instead of just owning HER side and saying, “I understand you liked … and we had a good time. I liked it to. But I don’t feel like doing that again right now.”
She had to lay blame on me. YOU’RE too needy. The defect is you and your needs. Great want to make someone feel like they don’t matter and unwanted.

This!

It reminds me of many experiences in my life.

I don't know about your wife Thor, but I've seen that not only do I struggle with shame. But my wife does too and I think it's at play in that you expressed, at least it is for my wife.

I like what Brene Brown said once.

"Shame response, never see me weak.". (She also relates vulnerability and weakness together earlier in the talk). Even though she says that's the male response, I think my wife struggles with that. And instead blames me, like you are describing. It's better to put the blame on others, than to accept it as our own personal flaw. I'm guilty of this as well, and it's been something I've been working hard on along with my addiction.

I can think of an instance just the other day when she was moving a garden hose and started yanking on it, and broke it. When I tried to show her what she did. She blames me for breaking it because I "swapped" hoses and that one wasn't long enough. I guess her solution was to yank it until it stretched? But it was my fault...

Check out this Ted talk of hers.

From 15:30 to the end. but especially from 17:35 to 18:07. It's very well said imo.

 

[Psalm27:1my light]

This!

It reminds me of many experiences in my life.

I don't know about your wife Thor, but I've seen that not only do I struggle with shame. But my wife does too and I think it's at play in that you expressed, at least it is for my wife.

I like what Brene Brown said once.

"Shame response, never see me weak.". (She also relates vulnerability and weakness together earlier in the talk). Even though she says that's the male response, I think my wife struggles with that. And instead blames me, like you are describing. It's better to put the blame on others, than to accept it as our own personal flaw. I'm guilty of this as well, and it's been something I've been working hard on along with my addiction.

I can think of an instance just the other day when she was moving a garden hose and started yanking on it, and broke it. When I tried to show her what she did. She blames me for breaking it because I "swapped" hoses and that one wasn't long enough. I guess her solution was to yank it until it stretched? But it was my fault...

Check out this Ted talk of hers.

From 15:30 to the end. but especially from 17:35 to 18:07. It's very well said imo.

I noticed I started doing this after dday. Like a lot. Absolutely really crazy things( like the hose with your wife) But I also recognized how crazy it was. So I worked really hard to try and get back to my more regulated self. However, it wasn’t until I had therapy that I was really much more successful. I struggle still if I get triggered. But, just recognizing it helps and then using new tools. My husband and I laugh a lot about this. He now recognizes it as well ( in me when I’m a bit cray cray) and we are actually in a place where we can address it in a non shaming heathy way without either of us getting upset over it.