If we both did what I’m doing where would our relationship be?

[Warfman]

I noticed I started doing this after dday. Like a lot. Absolutely really crazy things( like the hose with your wife) But I also recognized how crazy it was. So I worked really hard to try and get back to my more regulated self. However, it wasn’t until I had therapy that I was really much more successful. I struggle still if I get triggered. But, just recognizing it helps and then using new tools. My husband and I laugh a lot about this. He now recognizes it as well ( in me when I’m a bit cray cray) and we are actually in a place where we can address it in a non shaming heathy way without either of us getting upset over it.

Something else Brown says (in her other Ted talk about vulnerability).

"Blame is a way to discharge pain and discomfort".

It's fair to say that some of that is exactly what you are saying. Because it's definitely true. Because we have hurt our partners.

There's also many other reasons that have nothing to do with anything we did.

I'm really sorry Thor that you're wife is not willing to change. I think my wife is trying.. we are in that stage of being patient with each other and working through these issues one by one. Not fun, and is sure not easy. But hopefully it results in a better marriage.

 

[Deleted Account]

I love Brené. I’ve listened to a few of her books on audible.

It's better to put the blame on others, than to accept it as our own personal flaw.

weird thing is. It’s not a flaw. Just a personal feeling or viewpoint in her case

When I tried to show her what she did. She blames me for breaking it because I "swapped" hoses and that one wasn't long enough.

This type of thing totally resonates. Temper tantrums and blame.

 

[Warfman]

She's awesome!

weird thing is. It’s not a flaw. Just a personal feeling or viewpoint in her case

Yea flaw is the wrong word. It can be a flaw, but it can be many things, even just an uncomfortable feeling.

When one blames there's no room for vulnerability either. Or at least it's not a safe space. That's something we are trying to work on hard. Replacing blame with empathy, compassion, vulnerability, and validation. That hose incident was a recent one where things didn't go well. I'm trying to give grace in those moments. But it is really hard to do sometimes. But hey I didn't choose resentment and PMO, so that's good.

 

[Deleted Account]

I focus on the frustrating parts here, but if I’m being honest, things are calmer than they used to be when we fed off of each other. Just doing my work and managing my emotions better and being more stable has led to a lot more peace in our house.
I would like it to lead to connection and not just peace. But that requires more from both of us not just me.
But just changing myself has changed the relationship quite a bit.
My children notice it and my daughter comments on my improved patience. She feels much more safety and connection. Of course my young adult daughter DOES go to therapy, so she can interact with me in a much more empathetic way and I can reciprocate.

 

[Warfman]

My children notice it and my daughter comments on my improved patience. She feels much more safety and connection

This is awesome

 

[used19]

"Shame response, never see me weak.". (She also relates vulnerability and weakness together earlier in the talk). Even though she says that's the male response, I think my wife struggles with that. And instead blames me, like you are describing. It's better to put the blame on others, than to accept it as our own personal flaw. I'm guilty of this as well, and it's been something I've been working hard on along with my addiction.

I think pretty much anyone struggles with that. I’m noticing in my own relationship that he and I are able to work on hard things (key being work on we still confront dynamics that we’re sucking at, usually when under stress) because the dark stuff has already been confessed and we’re still together. Whereas before we would have hidden when we were being less than perfect (we are both complete perfectionists who shame the hell out of ourselves if we think we screwed up), we are both getting better at recognizing our crap and apologizing for it because we know we won’t be abandoned for being less than perfect. The times we don’t do this we struggle more (like right now we are going through something hard that has triggered anger in my husband that he’s having a hard time seeing how he’s treating us). It’s not easy for either one of us, but removing the shame and fear, accepting we are flawed is opening doors for us to work on more. I can see how this is a giant roadblock for you and thor - you have wives who do not want to admit anything on their own side. It takes a lot to separate out the hurtful things our husbands did to us (and to themselves) from anything negative about us personally. I struggle with feeling inadequate all the time and am terrified if my husband sees it that he’ll run right back to pmo cause those women seem perfect. So I get that in wives who are trying to stay above it all and not confront the things they need to, that it just keeps the problems going. It’s like trying to get a vehicle out of ice, the wheels keep spinning. Until there’s enough traction it doesn’t matter how well one side is doing, it’s gonna take more to go forward.

 

[Warfman]

I think pretty much anyone struggles with that. I’m noticing in my own relationship that he and I are able to work on hard things (key being work on we still confront dynamics that we’re sucking at, usually when under stress) because the dark stuff has already been confessed and we’re still together. Whereas before we would have hidden when we were being less than perfect (we are both complete perfectionists who shame the hell out of ourselves if we think we screwed up), we are both getting better at recognizing our crap and apologizing for it because we know we won’t be abandoned for being less than perfect. The times we don’t do this we struggle more (like right now we are going through something hard that has triggered anger in my husband that he’s having a hard time seeing how he’s treating us). It’s not easy for either one of us, but removing the shame and fear, accepting we are flawed is opening doors for us to work on more. I can see how this is a giant roadblock for you and thor - you have wives who do not want to admit anything on their own side. It takes a lot to separate out the hurtful things our husbands did to us (and to themselves) from anything negative about us personally. I struggle with feeling inadequate all the time and am terrified if my husband sees it that he’ll run right back to pmo cause those women seem perfect. So I get that in wives who are trying to stay above it all and not confront the things they need to, that it just keeps the problems going. It’s like trying to get a vehicle out of ice, the wheels keep spinning. Until there’s enough traction it doesn’t matter how well one side is doing, it’s gonna take more to go forward.

I think you are right. Attachment theory calls that our blindspots and I like that description. What's really hard, is that we can see one thing clearly, for instance I can see the damage I'm doing in one area and then do pretty much the exact same thing in a different way and not even realize it. It takes a ton of awareness and patience to be like "ok I see the cycle, now let's pull back and find the things we need to change to make this a healthy interaction". We can pull that off perfectly one day and royally screw it up the next.

One of the harder things for me in terms of my addiction is that I desire touch during the reconciliation of an issue. I like a hug, kiss etc. My wife is the polar opposite. It's really hard handling those situations even now. I used to PMO, but not doing so hasn't made those experiences feel less hurtful, so I'm still in that position of feeling less connected than I desire. Which is hard to deal with, especially in those moments when I get unjustly accused and blamed.

 

[used19]

One of the harder things for me in terms of my addiction is that I desire touch during the reconciliation of an issue.

We struggle with a similar dynamic. He likes touch to be reassured that I do, in fact, still love him even though we’re “at war”. But my alarms go off that I need to retreat at all costs to protect myself. Zero touch - that’s too personal, too much risk because he’ll either be too close and know what I’m thinking or he'll soften me with touch and weaken my reserve. If I have space and just my words, then I can protect myself. (His reaction to this dynamic drove a lot of his addict reasoning to justify that he deserved to act out. He now sees his reasoning was pure bs). We’re trying really hard to work on it from both sides, but it is hard to fight against our ingrained reactions. I think it’s probably Dr. Tatkin’s model is working well for us - if we can continually remember that we defined and agreed to what we want for our coupleship AND remember that caring for each other is taking care of the coupleship, then this gets diffused more. He’s trying to remember that I am constantly terrified of being told I’m not enough and getting replaced. I’m trying to remember that he needs more than words to be assured. Sometimes we’re getting it, sometimes we’re failing miserably.

 

[Warfman]

he'll soften me with touch and weaken my reserve.

Haha this describes my wife. She hates feeling vulnerable I can see how it stems from her past as well. Also myself. It's really hard to be in a relationship with this kind of dynamic for me desiring more connection.

justify that he deserved to act out

I don't know that I would use the word justify myself. I don't feel I ever tried to justify my actions. More I didn't have the resolve to stop myself from looking for cheap ways to deal with the issues.

I think it’s probably Dr. Tatkin’s model is working well for us - if we can continually remember that we defined and agreed to what we want for our coupleship AND remember that caring for each other is taking care of the coupleship, then this gets diffused more.

I'm excited to start that book. Bought it on your recommendation. I like the concept of definition around the relationship. I've tried to start that with not much success. For some reason when I ask for specifics on what my wife wants she shuts down. She likes complaining about most everything I do. Then when I ask for specifics of her picture of what the relationship should be like she is mute. I know there's an element to just listening and attuning. I've never been good at that, but getting better. I just also want a solution, so I'm not the cause of all her problems anymore.

 

[used19]

Haha this describes my wife. She hates feeling vulnerable I can see how it stems from her past as well. Also myself. It's really hard to be in a relationship with this kind of dynamic for me desiring more connection.

We hate it because *in the past* it’s always meant more pain that we can’t control. Eventually we hit a wall where it just hurt too much and now it’s a protective mechanism. We’re already hurting too much, anything else is more than we can take. So up goes the wall. It takes very conscious effort or extreme safety for us to lower it. And the crappy part, for me anyway, is that it’s almost like I’m not capable of physical touch when I’m feeling disconnected and threatened. She’s been through so much I can understand why she does it. I know it doesn’t make it any easier for you, I’m sorry. I hope that if you can make more progress together connecting that it will get easier for her in time.

I don't know that I would use the word justify myself. I don't feel I ever tried to justify my actions. More I didn't have the resolve to stop myself from looking for cheap ways to deal with the issues.

At least you know that if you can resolve the issues or spot the cycle that you can lessen the chance of going down the spiral. For my husband it went, "she never wants to touch me, she must not love me, she’s just here for the children. I can’t be a bad husband and leave her, I love her, but I’m never going to get mine, so this is me getting what I need since she hates me.” He now knows it’s crap and realizes that I can’t connect physically if I don’t feel safe and if I am not emotionally connected. When those things happen I’m actually quite affectionate (which is surprising given I received very little physical attention as a child. I don’t remember being hugged or cuddled at all. I only remember my grandfather 1 time saying I love you. I was well cared for but emotionally ignored a lot.)

I'm excited to start that book. Bought it on your recommendation. I like the concept of definition around the relationship. I've tried to start that with not much success. For some reason when I ask for specifics on what my wife wants she shuts down. She likes complaining about most everything I do. Then when I ask for specifics of her picture of what the relationship should be like she is mute. I know there's an element to just listening and attuning. I've never been good at that, but getting better. I just also want a solution, so I'm not the cause of all her problems anymore.

Do you think she’ll read it? I got it and totally geeked out on it because I love attachment theory. I thought my husband would jump to read it. He was interested but had other fun books to read. He finally started it and we’re talking about it as he goes. The interesting thing I’ve been noticing is observing his own issues with making close relationships. We both know that I don’t do it anymore because I refuse to get burned again, I don’t let anyone but him or my children close to me emotionally. He has friends and family that want relationships with him, but he keeps it very surface level. So it’s kind of interesting to watch him get excited about really working on deepening and protecting the coupleship, realizing that he’s held back and actually is craving something even deeper and more committed and defined than it was before. So I don’t know, maybe if she reads it, it will spark something. I could see given her degree how she might be really interested in the more scientific/attachment things. He ties a lot of the things that happen in arguments to what actually is happening in the brain structures (but also presents it in an accessible way for those who aren’t into it).

Praying for you both. I just want everyone on here to heal and have the future opened up. To get to leave all this garbage and the problems it caused behind.

 

[PixelPrincess]

It's an issue she has, specifically on MO I asked about it. She seemed to be of the mind that is ok, but not in excess. PMO crosses the line.

I feel it is self motivated, I'm tired of the old cycles for sure.

What triggers me specifically and why I posted yesterday is that everything is my fault. 100 percent of the time, if she does something wrong, it's because "I" made her do it. Some comments here make me feel that same way. I feel that needs voiced by someone.

I see how that would happen on this forum. It seems to attract worst case scenarios and a lot of bitterness. You definitely deserve to still have an equal say and positive experience in your marriage. Regardless of the struggles or her experience, if she stays that implies forgiveness. And that’s totally necessary.

 

[Warfman]

We hate it because *in the past* it’s always meant more pain that we can’t control. Eventually we hit a wall where it just hurt too much and now it’s a protective mechanism. We’re already hurting too much, anything else is more than we can take. So up goes the wall. It takes very conscious effort or extreme safety for us to lower it. And the crappy part, for me anyway, is that it’s almost like I’m not capable of physical touch when I’m feeling disconnected and threatened. She’s been through so much I can understand why she does it. I know it doesn’t make it any easier for you, I’m sorry. I hope that if you can make more progress together connecting that it will get easier for her in time.

You already know this, but my wife's trauma responses predates me. Her responses to me predate DDay. But that's not too diminish anything I've done. It's just the truth. My wife was already on guard and really good at protecting herself with unhealthy strategies. It just adds to the complexity is all. But understanding the "WHY" behind my wife's experiences is crucial for me I think. Is important I understand why she is who she is, so that I can offer the love she ultimately deserves.

She's taken an interest in attachment theory, I don't think she's in a place to really delve deep in it with reading. I'm excited to read it. That book, and "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents" are on the top of my list.

I listened to this interview by the author Dr. Lindsay Gibson today. It's really good. I think it applies to this thread so thought I'd share. It's important to understand one another I think. And elements of what is discussed here are worth thinking about.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

She's taken an interest in attachment theory, I don't think she's in a place to really delve deep in it with reading.

I think that's really positive. I've been looking more into attachment theory since you've shared it so much on here and I think it's helping me understand some of my own issues. Not related to PMO really, but more how I am in relationships. It's helped me understand that I have avoidant tendencies and it likely comes from the environment I was raised in.

Something I want to make sure is that I don't encourage the same traits in my kids and I've tried to revise some of my behaviour now I know what to look for. I think in some respects it's too late for me - it goes beyond behaviour trends, there's just pieces of my emotional range that are frankly missing. But whilst I can't change how I feel, I can do my best not to pass it on.

So that might be a useful angle to broach the topic from as you've described your wife as quite a dedicated mother. The trickiest part I imagine is getting someone to accept that there's something less than ideal with how they respond to things, as everyone thinks they're normal and everyone else is the crazy one. But once you get round that, I think a parent is going to change how they approach things and the example they set.

 

[Warfman]

I think that's really positive. I've been looking more into attachment theory since you've shared it so much on here and I think it's helping me understand some of my own issues. Not related to PMO really, but more how I am in relationships. It's helped me understand that I have avoidant tendencies and it likely comes from the environment I was raised in.

Something I want to make sure is that I don't encourage the same traits in my kids and I've tried to revise some of my behaviour now I know what to look for. I think in some respects it's too late for me - it goes beyond behaviour trends, there's just pieces of my emotional range that are frankly missing. But whilst I can't change how I feel, I can do my best not to pass it on.

So that might be a useful angle to broach the topic from as you've described your wife as quite a dedicated mother. The trickiest part I imagine is getting someone to accept that there's something less than ideal with how they respond to things, as everyone thinks they're normal and everyone else is the crazy one. But once you get round that, I think a parent is going to change how they approach things and the example they set.

I'm glad that this has helped you as well! I'm no expert if course, but I think the first real step to changing is awareness. I saw something once that the Gottman's found that one of the best indications of a good relationship is when both partners turned towards each other's bids for connection. Understanding not only how we behave but also how our partners do, I think is a really big deal, and it's the first step to changing some of the toxic ones, and choosing to validate those bids for connection rather than invalidate. It also means pursuing connection in healthy ways, not in covert or manipulative ways.

My wife started out doing precisely what your saying. Started focusing on all "my" issues and blaming me for causing our kids to have issues. She did this before, but she started using that same attachment theory language to point the finger, all the while she in her own way she's things wrong as well. I don't think anyone is a perfect parent we all make mistakes. I heard Adam Young say once that the getting it right 50 percent of the time is good. In the times we get it wrong, focusing on attunement and resolution are what help kids develop secure attachment.

IMO, the single most important thing a parent can do is work on ourselves, because I think it helps us become better parents.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

I'm glad that this has helped you as well! I'm no expert if course, but I think the first real step to changing is awareness. I saw something once that the Gottman's found that one of the best indications of a good relationship is when both partners turned towards each other's bids for connection. Understanding not only how we behave but also how our partners do, I think is a really big deal, and it's the first step to changing some of the toxic ones, and choosing to validate those bids for connection rather than invalidate. It also means pursuing connection in healthy ways, not in covert or manipulative ways.

My wife started out doing precisely what your saying. Started focusing on all "my" issues and blaming me for causing our kids to have issues. She did this before, but she started using that same attachment theory language to point the finger, all the while she in her own way she's things wrong as well. I don't think anyone is a perfect parent we all make mistakes. I heard Adam Young say once that the getting it right 50 percent of the time is good. In the times we get it wrong, focusing on attunement and resolution are what help kids develop secure attachment.

IMO, the single most important thing a parent can do is work on ourselves, because I think it helps us become better parents.

Definitely something I can be guilty of. Me and my wife rarely argue but we did briefly today over disciplining the children. I'd put the child on the naughty step and they were crying and bawling but I wouldn't let them off until they apologised (which they point-blank refused to do). Wife told me I was being too harsh and I got angry and stated that if she wasn't so weak with the kids, I wouldn't have to be the bad cop all the time. And there's some truth to that, but I'm basically being defensive and lashing out at her for being sympathetic, which is something I really struggle to feel.

Certain emotions just simply weren't tolerated in my household growing up and I think that's why I can be rather harsh. And I don't want to enforce the same regime, where being sad or vulnerable is mocked and punished. But I'm only starting to realise that there's something wrong with this. Not everyone else is weak or a pussy, I'm like emotionally deadened because of how and where I was raised. What I have interpreted as independence and self-sufficiency is in fact a total inability to connect with anyone in a way that would leave me in the least bit vulnerable. And I think it's affected my relationships in the past and I don't want it to affect my relationships with my children or how they turn out. My parents were often incredibly callous and I need to find a way not to repeat those patterns.

Sorry to hiijack, but attachment theory just set me off on one as this is something that has been on my mind a lot lately.

 

[Warfman]

My wife and I have a weird dynamic here. Because in ways I'm the "sensitive" one. But I'm also the masculine one.

I call my wife the one person justice police. And I think it's very damaging. Because you can never get things right in those moments. Instead I feel like it's best to help the kids through the emotions, and let the apology come more naturally. Otherwise they learn to either lie to get away with not apologizing or they learn that they don't actually have to mean it and just say it to move on with their day. I like the idea of attunement and working through the emotions.

My wife was in a very abusive home growing up and I see it very clearly now.

I was more maybe like you. My parents (especially my Dad) aren't emotionally available.

I've seen several times where my father has handled things with his grandchildren exactly how he did to me. And it's hard not to get very upset at him. But I think ultimately we just have to focus on us.

What I hate the most is that my wife and I do such a poor job of being good examples. Going to keep trying though!

The video with Dr. Lindsay Gibson I posted you might like. She goes into some really interesting stuff on parental styles.

 

[Wilderness Wanderer]

Certain emotions just simply weren't tolerated in my household growing up and I think that's why I can be rather harsh. And I don't want to enforce the same regime, where being sad or vulnerable is mocked and punished. But I'm only starting to realise that there's something wrong with this. Not everyone else is weak or a pussy, I'm like emotionally deadened because of how and where I was raised. What I have interpreted as independence and self-sufficiency is in fact a total inability to connect with anyone in a way that would leave me in the least bit vulnerable. And I think it's affected my relationships in the past and I don't want it to affect my relationships with my children or how they turn out. My parents were often incredibly callous and I need to find a way not to repeat those patterns.

Sorry for the drive-by shooting. But in another thread you said you couldn't figure out why you had compulsively masturbated so much, perhaps it was just hedonism, you said. And then on this thread you give this gem of a paragraph. I'm not being sarcastic with the word "gem," either. This paragraph holds a clue for why you compulsively masturbate. I don't know anything about your story, friend, but this paragraph jumped out at me as one not to ignore. If you don't want to mess up your kids, then get Parenting From the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel, which directly connects with what's happening in your kids while they wail and won't sit still as you discipline them. You'll learn a lot about yourself in that book, too.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

Sorry for the drive-by shooting. But in another thread you said you couldn't figure out why you had compulsively masturbated so much, perhaps it was just hedonism, you said. And then on this thread you give this gem of a paragraph. I'm not being sarcastic with the word "gem," either. This paragraph holds a clue for why you compulsively masturbate. I don't know anything about your story, friend, but this paragraph jumped out at me as one not to ignore. If you don't want to mess up your kids, then get Parenting From the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel, which directly connects with what's happening in your kids while they wail and won't sit still as you discipline them. You'll learn a lot about yourself in that book, too.

I'm not sure I'm connecting the dots there. I suppose one could theorise that pornography was a replacement for emotional intimicacy, but for me masturbation was practically mechanical. I'd often chug one out without thinking about sex or intimacy at all, it was like scratching an itch. I think I just got stuck in a reward loop of the most base kind, like a rat pressing a button to get a treat. If there's more depth to it, I've never been able to identify it.

I'll look into that book recommendation as I think the way formative experiences influence parenting is very important and something I'm thinking increasingly about.

 

[Wilderness Wanderer]

Personally, I've abandoned the idea that any of this is mechanical. Rarely is this about conscious decisions. So to be thinking about intimacy is, IMHO, irrelevant. We aren't rats. My 2 cents.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

Personally, I've abandoned the idea that any of this is mechanical. Rarely is this about conscious decisions. So to be thinking about intimacy is, IMHO, irrelevant. We aren't rats. My 2 cents.

That's fair enough. But if you weren't talking about filling an intimacy void, what were you referring to?