If we both did what I’m doing where would our relationship be?

[Wilderness Wanderer]

@Real Jerry Seinfeld Sorry if I jumped the gun here. I feel that I don't know you very well and perhaps sought to address you before it was the right time. That said, …

Filling a void in emotional connection is something you may be seeking in porn without even being conscious of it. You said above that you'd PMO without thinking about intimacy at all. But it is the subconscious which seems to control our lives quite a bit more than we realize. Certain emotions weren't allowed in your house. You're emotionally deadened because of how you were raised. The emotions are still there, even if you aren't conscious of them. There is a vast, deep current of emotions that occur below the surface of your consciousness. I don't mean this in any new-agey mumbo jumbo way. I mean that your logical left brain is likely simply unaware of what's happening in your emotional right brain. That's how it's been for me for most of my life.

If you haven't read it, I'd highly recommend Unwanted by Jay Stringer. The book I already recommended by Daniel Siegel is another very good one. I recommend them both and they cover different ground. It's difficult to convey the contents of so much important material in a few posts on the forum here. But given what you said back here in this post, if you haven't yet connected your past/childhood with your current porn addiction, then working through those books will give you the tools you need to shed new light on your addiction.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

@Real Jerry Seinfeld Sorry if I jumped the gun here. I feel that I don't know you very well and perhaps sought to address you before it was the right time. That said, …

Filling a void in emotional connection is something you may be seeking in porn without even being conscious of it. You said above that you'd PMO without thinking about intimacy at all. But it is the subconscious which seems to control our lives quite a bit more than we realize. Certain emotions weren't allowed in your house. You're emotionally deadened because of how you were raised. The emotions are still there, even if you aren't conscious of them. There is a vast, deep current of emotions that occur below the surface of your consciousness. I don't mean this in any new-agey mumbo jumbo way. I mean that your logical left brain is likely simply unaware of what's happening in your emotional right brain. That's how it's been for me for most of my life.

If you haven't read it, I'd highly recommend Unwanted by Jay Stringer. The book I already recommended by Daniel Siegel is another very good one. I recommend them both and they cover different ground. It's difficult to convey the contents of so much important material in a few posts on the forum here. But given what you said back here in this post, if you haven't yet connected your past/childhood with your current porn addiction, then working through those books will give you the tools you need to shed new light on your addiction.

Thanks for clarifying, I understand what you're saying now. I think what you're saying is plausible but I'm not sure how well it fits.

So my abstaining from masturbation came before I knew what NoFap was and the reason I did it was to sleep with more women. I had stopped going out to pull women because I was masturbating like 3+ times a day. So I figured that if I could no longer sate myself manually, I'd have to go out and find women to sleep with in order not to go crazy through unslaked lust. This in fact worked really well and I was able to reduce how often I masturbated to once every few weeks on average. Basically, whenever I hit a dry patch.

You could argue that these sexual encounters were means to pursuing intimacy but my behaviour would suggest otherwise. Sometimes I was already on friendly terms with these women, often they were strangers, but I at no point felt any deep emotional connection. I didn't knowingly reject the prospect of emotional intimacy and often thought I'd quite like to meet 'the right person', but it just never came into the picture. All my male friendships at the time, other than people I'd known for years, revolved around going out and pulling women. Again, these friendships were often warm but ultimately I didn't develop lasting relationships from them and I never lamented their loss in any way. When I got into a relationship, I basically cut every one of them loose because I had no purpose for them. This wasn't something I did deliberately, I just let the friendships slide and then later realised why I'd so easily let them go.

Logically, my behaviour in both sexual and platonic relationships is that of someone who does not prioritise emotional intimacy. Perhaps there is some subconscious drive for intimacy behind it, using masturbation or sex as a means for getting as close to it as I can to a real connection. Face up against the glass, so to speak. But because subconscious urges are, by definition, subconscious, I can never know if this is the case.

My take on it is that because of how I was raised, I find it very difficult to trust and be vulnerable with people. If my subconscious is expressing through my behaviour, I suspect it is to reject intimacy rather than to pursue it. Attempts to be open with people being stamped on eventually just made part of me shut down in a kind of self-defence mechanism. How sexual behaviour fits into this I don't know. I can't connect those dots but the unseen nature of the subconscious means I can't rule it out either.

 

[Wilderness Wanderer]

@Real Jerry Seinfeld Are you familiar with attachment styles? Read this: https://adamyoungcounseling.com/2019/12/07/attachment-what-it-is/ And then read the link at the bottom about Avoidant Attachment. It sounds like that's your attachment style. I know it's mine and it explains a lot. The basic gist is that, while our brains desire true emotional connection/secure attachment, our childhoods/parents didn't provide this. This means we don't even know what secure attachment is like because we've never experienced it. It also means we don't know how to regulate our emotions, and when we experience uncomfortable emotions, we go and hide (avoid people, because we've learned people can't help us). And for those on this forum with this attachment style, the hiding part also frequently includes the use of porn as a substitute for regulating emotions in healthy ways.

 

[Psalm27:1my light]

Thanks for clarifying, I understand what you're saying now. I think what you're saying is plausible but I'm not sure how well it fits.

So my abstaining from masturbation came before I knew what NoFap was and the reason I did it was to sleep with more women. I had stopped going out to pull women because I was masturbating like 3+ times a day. So I figured that if I could no longer sate myself manually, I'd have to go out and find women to sleep with in order not to go crazy through unslaked lust. This in fact worked really well and I was able to reduce how often I masturbated to once every few weeks on average. Basically, whenever I hit a dry patch.

You could argue that these sexual encounters were means to pursuing intimacy but my behaviour would suggest otherwise. Sometimes I was already on friendly terms with these women, often they were strangers, but I at no point felt any deep emotional connection. I didn't knowingly reject the prospect of emotional intimacy and often thought I'd quite like to meet 'the right person', but it just never came into the picture. All my male friendships at the time, other than people I'd known for years, revolved around going out and pulling women. Again, these friendships were often warm but ultimately I didn't develop lasting relationships from them and I never lamented their loss in any way. When I got into a relationship, I basically cut every one of them loose because I had no purpose for them. This wasn't something I did deliberately, I just let the friendships slide and then later realised why I'd so easily let them go.

Logically, my behaviour in both sexual and platonic relationships is that of someone who does not prioritise emotional intimacy. Perhaps there is some subconscious drive for intimacy behind it, using masturbation or sex as a means for getting as close to it as I can to a real connection. Face up against the glass, so to speak. But because subconscious urges are, by definition, subconscious, I can never know if this is the case.

My take on it is that because of how I was raised, I find it very difficult to trust and be vulnerable with people. If my subconscious is expressing through my behaviour, I suspect it is to reject intimacy rather than to pursue it. Attempts to be open with people being stamped on eventually just made part of me shut down in a kind of self-defence mechanism. How sexual behaviour fits into this I don't know. I can't connect those dots but the unseen nature of the subconscious means I can't rule it out either.

You might look into Intimacy Anorexia

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

@Real Jerry Seinfeld Are you familiar with attachment styles? Read this: https://adamyoungcounseling.com/2019/12/07/attachment-what-it-is/ And then read the link at the bottom about Avoidant Attachment. It sounds like that's your attachment style. I know it's mine and it explains a lot. The basic gist is that, while our brains desire true emotional connection/secure attachment, our childhoods/parents didn't provide this. This means we don't even know what secure attachment is like because we've never experienced it. It also means we don't know how to regulate our emotions, and when we experience uncomfortable emotions, we go and hide (avoid people, because we've learned people can't help us). And for those on this forum with this attachment style, the hiding part also frequently includes the use of porn as a substitute for regulating emotions in healthy ways.

Yeah, I actually got onto this after @Warfman shared a lot of stuff about attachment styles and I realised that I have a lot of avoidant traits. So I think you're definitely on the money there. I don't know if porn comes into the picture, I feel like it didn't for me, but it's a possibility. I definitely moved from chronic masturbation to basically being a manwhore. Transitioning into a relationship wasn't all that hard though, so maybe that's not avoidant?

You might look into Intimacy Anorexia

I've had a look at it but I'm not convinced as to the empirical basis for it. Attachment styles have years worth of peer-reviewed research behind them, so I can get on board with them more.

I'm also not sure I recognise the described traits in how I've been treated in relationships or how I treat others. I am quite an affectionate person in a relationship, or even just a hook-up really, most partners have told me that's the case. The problem isn't so much what I do or don't do, it's what I don't or can't feel. Someone might be really connecting with me and I reciprocate but it's performative, I'm totally unmoved emotionally. I can enjoy someone's company for months or even years and it ends and I feel fine.

The best way to describe it is like at some point all emotional attachment to others just switched off, probably, as Wanderer says, because there were occasions where I felt my love for close family was unreciprocated. And to like avoid the pain, my brain just shut that part down. I don't feel like I'm consciously avoiding attachment, I feel like I just can't do it, or maybe it's subconscious. Maybe what I'm describing isn't supported by psychology either, I don't know, but that's my best way to describe it.

 

[Warfman]

Transitioning into a relationship wasn't all that hard though, so maybe that's not avoidant?

Not saying you do this or don't. But it's common for avoidant attached people to look for flaws in their partners. It's a natural way of validating a reason to "pull back" from the relationship. The "push/pull" dynamics of an avoidant/anxious relationship is pretty interesting and I definitely recognize it in my marriage.

Wanderer says, because there were occasions where I felt my love for close family was unreciprocated

Something Heidi Priebe articulates is "emotional currency". An avoidant can become really resentful of others when they feel like others get their needs met by making a bid for connection and getting rejected themselves. The avoidant learns that their "emotional currency" isn't accepted or is no good here, and they either quit trying, or don't see the value in trying.

Not saying either depict you. But it's two things that have stuck out to me and wonder if you relate at all.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

Not saying you do this or don't. But it's common for avoidant attached people to look for flaws in their partners. It's a natural way of validating a reason to "pull back" from the relationship. The "push/pull" dynamics of an avoidant/anxious relationship is pretty interesting and I definitely recognize it in my marriage.

I probably am guilty of that. I've a tendency to be very critical and I feel disrespected if my standards aren't met. And that can lead to me getting pissed off and sort of detaching and the other person chasing. It's not a continual cycle but it happens from time to time. I had always assumed this was kind of normal, though in fairness I don't remember basically any partner I've ever had doing this to me. By the same token, it's not something I would necessarily know how to resolve as it's kind of a two-way street.

I think I'm less guilty of it than I used to be, at any rate. When I was dating, I would pie girls off over nothing. Like, the first hint of drama, or unpleasantness, or traits I didn't care for, I was out the door. I didn't even bother to discuss the issue, whereas in a relationship there is obviously some back and forth on issues of contention. But the gut reaction to 'pull back' is definitely there.

Something Heidi Priebe articulates is "emotional currency". An avoidant can become really resentful of others when they feel like others get their needs met by making a bid for connection and getting rejected themselves. The avoidant learns that their "emotional currency" isn't accepted or is no good here, and they either quit trying, or don't see the value in trying.

I think that's been the case in some specific relationships. In my relationship with my mother, I found that making bids for a connection were not only fruitless but often also painful and humiliating. And it's hard not to take personally because she quite clearly cares deeply for both my siblings, albeit in her own taciturn way. So that's a hard pill to swallow and it's likely contributed to whatever is preventing me from connecting deeply with others. And I guess I already have some self-awareness of this but it's not something I really have any solutions to.

Apologies if this is all quite self-indulgent, but it is helping me come to terms with things that I typically just shove to the back of mind.

 

[Wilderness Wanderer]

@Real Jerry Seinfeld Daniel Siegel is a good author you should get acquainted with.

 

[Warfman]

By the same token, it's not something I would necessarily know how to resolve as it's kind of a two-way street.

It's definitely can be a two way street, it's called a blind spot for a reason.. haha both sides of the avoidant/anxious relationship have it, nothing wrong with standards and expectations, but it is a problem if it's something that's constant, a personal example for me is I could help with the kids all day, for 5 days in a row, and the next week when my wife asks me to do something and I say I don't have time she'll say "you never help". Then uses that as a "reason" to pull back, from me. In this way nothing is good enough. Using that as a reason to "pull back" can be borderline manipulative and it feels really manipulative at times. Again I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. Just mentioning it as it can be something that happens without really even realizing it. I think the best way to "fix" it. Is state standards but also offer Grace and be willing to compromise, and don't make it something that affects the connection of the relationship.

 

[Warfman]

So that's a hard pill to swallow and it's likely contributed to whatever is preventing me from connecting deeply with others. And I guess I already have some self-awareness of this but it's not something I really have any solutions to.

Funny enough my wife and I had a very similar conversation last week about her mother. I can see how hurt she is by things. My mother in law definitely chooses my sister in law over my wife when it comes to watching grandkids. And there's just a weird dynamic there.

I talked to my wife and suggested she work through stages of grief about this, maybe write a letter (that she never sends) to her mother. Just as a way to vent. I also suggested she talk with her brother about this as he feels very similarly. I've been working through some of that with my emotionally distant father. Feel a little better knowing I just can't go to him about things that are deep. It sucks, but coming to some acceptance has made things better. At least it doesn't affect me like it did.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

It's definitely can be a two way street, it's called a blind spot for a reason.. haha both sides of the avoidant/anxious relationship have it, nothing wrong with standards and expectations, but it is a problem if it's something that's constant, a personal example for me is I could help with the kids all day, for 5 days in a row, and the next week when my wife asks me to do something and I say I don't have time she'll say "you never help". Then uses that as a "reason" to pull back, from me. In this way nothing is good enough. Using that as a reason to "pull back" can be borderline manipulative and it feels really manipulative at times. Again I'm not trying to accuse you of anything. Just mentioning it as it can be something that happens without really even realizing it. I think the best way to "fix" it. Is state standards but also offer Grace and be willing to compromise, and don't make it something that affects the connection of the relationship.

Yeah I appreciate you raising this because being overcritical is something I have tried to row back on and will continue to do so. With us it's usually housework and things like that. And to some extent I do need to keep on her to do things but I try to be more patient and to give credit where it's due. I'm definitely improving but the fundamental dynamic where I'm basically cracking the whip over household stuff is very much present. I think we've both made effort, but it's when I feel like she isn't making a sufficient effort that I'm in danger of withdrawing.

I talked to my wife and suggested she work through stages of grief about this, maybe write a letter (that she never sends) to her mother. Just as a way to vent. I also suggested she talk with her brother about this as he feels very similarly. I've been working through some of that with my emotionally distant father. Feel a little better knowing I just can't go to him about things that are deep. It sucks, but coming to some acceptance has made things better. At least it doesn't affect me like it did.

Yeah, maybe writing an unsent letter is a good exercise. I've tried to discuss it with her in the past and just got made to feel like an idiot for raising it. One minute she doesn't love me and it's my fault, next minute she never said that and it's in my head, I'm being too sensitive, I'm being too insensitive, etc. Just a total waste of time. It's not something I'm 'over' but I've stopped deceiving myself that maybe there's a real relationship there. If we're on friendly terms that's about as much as I can expect. So I don't know what kind of further resolution is possible, or with respect to other familial relationships that aren't as I'd like.

 

[Warfman]

Yeah I appreciate you raising this because being overcritical is something I have tried to row back on and will continue to do so. With us it's usually housework and things like that. And to some extent I do need to keep on her to do things but I try to be more patient and to give credit where it's due. I'm definitely improving but the fundamental dynamic where I'm basically cracking the whip over household stuff is very much present. I think we've both made effort, but it's when I feel like she isn't making a sufficient effort that I'm in danger of withdrawing.


Yeah, maybe writing an unsent letter is a good exercise. I've tried to discuss it with her in the past and just got made to feel like an idiot for raising it. One minute she doesn't love me and it's my fault, next minute she never said that and it's in my head, I'm being too sensitive, I'm being too insensitive, etc. Just a total waste of time. It's not something I'm 'over' but I've stopped deceiving myself that maybe there's a real relationship there. If we're on friendly terms that's about as much as I can expect. So I don't know what kind of further resolution is possible, or with respect to other familial relationships that aren't as I'd like.

Another thing I've heard suggested is to carry that letter with you for a period of time. When struggling with this feeling pull it out, feel how that feels, maybe even add to that letter. Carry it like a emotional "brick". Feeling those feelings and processing them outwardly is good practice. Then after that set time is up. Somewhat ceremoniously discard of the letter, as a way of bringing closure to it.


Might not help. But it seems to help a little bit for me anyway. The lack of connection with my father and wife still hurts but I feel better "sooner" anyway.

 

[used19]

Yeah, maybe writing an unsent letter is a good exercise. I've tried to discuss it with her in the past and just got made to feel like an idiot for raising it. One minute she doesn't love me and it's my fault, next minute she never said that and it's in my head, I'm being too sensitive, I'm being too insensitive, etc. Just a total waste of time. It's not something I'm 'over' but I've stopped deceiving myself that maybe there's a real relationship there. If we're on friendly terms that's about as much as I can expect. So I don't know what kind of further resolution is possible, or with respect to other familial relationships that aren't as I'd like.

It at least lets you get to a point of resolution with yourself. Not dealing with it at all doesn’t make it go away or make it not effect you. There’s a difference between shoving something rotten to the back of the fridge because you don’t want to deal with it vs. dealing the the grossness that it is and chucking it in the trash. It’s still gonna stink but at least you don’t have to keep smelling it.

I can’t deal with any of the actual issues with my mother because in her eyes she never has ever done anything wrong or hurt me. I’m just too sensitive and have it all wrong. According to her I’ve misunderstood everything and she has nothing to apologize for, ever. I eventually have had to stop talking to her because it was making me feel like I’m nothing and don’t matter. It still hurts but I finally had to place her where she can’t keep doing shitty things to me and telling me that she’s not, nor apologizing. (Which ironically helps me want to keep working on things with my husband, while he’s hurt me more than anyone, he’s actually the first person to acknowledge that he hurt me badly, realizes how horrible it was and apologizes daily for it). So it’s at least all helpful that I’m not trying to pretend like it didn’t happen or isn’t hurting me.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

I can’t deal with any of the actual issues with my mother because in her eyes she never has ever done anything wrong or hurt me. I’m just too sensitive and have it all wrong. According to her I’ve misunderstood everything and she has nothing to apologize for, ever. I eventually have had to stop talking to her because it was making me feel like I’m nothing and don’t matter. It still hurts but I finally had to place her where she can’t keep doing shitty things to me and telling me that she’s not, nor apologizing. (Which ironically helps me want to keep working on things with my husband, while he’s hurt me more than anyone, he’s actually the first person to acknowledge that he hurt me badly, realizes how horrible it was and apologizes daily for it). So it’s at least all helpful that I’m not trying to pretend like it didn’t happen or isn’t hurting me.

This is exactly my experience. There is no acknowledgment of any ill treatment, it's all in my head. To some extent, I believe she cannot face up to how she feels because she's ashamed of it. Facing it would mean admitting she was not a loving mother. She is also just not good at emotions, she is very cold and then has big outbursts, it's not a comfortable place for her to go.

My dad's account of it is that she has me associated in her head with her father, who was very absent in her childhood. She does often compare me both favourably and unfavourably to her father, so this rings true. Everyone also mentions that my grandfather paid more attention to me than his own children, so perhaps that's a factor. But he died when I was about 7, so I don't really have too many memories of him unfortunately.

Whilst I'm sorry to hear about other people's issues with their parents, it's nice in a way to hear it, because I feel like I'm less alone in that experience.

 

[Warfman]

Whilst I'm sorry to hear about other people's issues with their parents, it's nice in a way to hear it, because I feel like I'm less alone in that experience

If it makes you feel any better. I tried reaching out to my father today about some hard stuff that's actually his doing. He asked how I was doing. So I told him. No sorry, no attunement, just said "well it doesn't sound like you are having a good day". He proceeded to move onto whatever was on his mind. Drives me nuts, but I can't let him have so much power over my life. Argh.

 

[Real Jerry Seinfeld]

If it makes you feel any better. I tried reaching out to my father today about some hard stuff that's actually his doing. He asked how I was doing. So I told him. No sorry, no attunement, just said "well it doesn't sound like you are having a good day". He proceeded to move onto whatever was on his mind. Drives me nuts, but I can't let him have so much power over my life. Argh.

That's the worst. No discussion let alone validation for how you're feeling. Really infuriating.

It's not as extreme as yours but my dad asked not so long ago how my health was. I was awaiting a cardiac MRI at the time (all fine fortunately), so I told him what was up. He immediately changed the subject, no apparent interest at all as to the potential issue or outcome. To be fair, I doubt he even listened, just making small talk before transitioning to whatever it was he actually wanted to talk about. Ever get those calls? 'Hi son, how are you? -Great, listen, my laptop's really slow for some reason...'