Is it ok to compliment girls in the street?

And the process you describe is what I would consider to be essential for societal progression. Extremism in any ideology is fraught with danger, but if the impact of that extremism has resulted in a bulk reduction in human hardship (physically and psychologically) for society in general, or a certain part thereof then we can retrospectively call it a "good extreme". The problem is anticipating whether an extreme will ultimately beneficial to humanity or not, and that's measured very differently by some people.

Take earlier waves of feminism in the 20th century, which at the time were extreme, but have largely resulted in an enormous improvement in quality of life for women in Western society. And the same for civil rights for people of colour, particularly in America. An extreme opinion in one generation has the potential to be a mainstream one in future.

 

Thanks for clearing that point up. I do believe that it is okay to talk to women though. One example would be if a woman may give you a look that says you can come over and talk to her. I also understand that if she looks pretty busy she probably is, and you should let her go on with her day. I think that as long as some common sense is used it shouldn't be a problem.

 

The way you pose this suggests that men who talk to women in public are potential rapists.

I think where most are taking exception to the feminists call to disciple men is in what is meant by 'talking to women in public'. If it refers to uninvited cat-calls and leering, then it is obviously rude behavior and not to be condoned. This goes without saying, and is in no need of a cultural mass movement [or a process of 're-education'] to change the average man's mindset. Rude behavior is tolerated [not condoned] and the 'perpetrators' usually learn through being shunned.

But what seems to be going on here is that obvious rude behavior is extended to cover something in a much more grey area... that of a man approaching a woman. Done in the right way [always a matter of prudence and NOT doctrine where one picks up on the subtlest of signals... or not], this is considered as romantic by most. And educators want to be VERY careful about stepping on something so precious as romance and the relation between the sexes. Those that are not so cautious tend to think in a strident, rationalist/ ideological manner... they are the progressives, they tend to think something like romance belongs to the past, that perhaps even this old-fashioned romance is sexist. Some of these women betray all the coldness of a Bolchevik [like them, they are 'levelers'], and would create the world in their own image in they could.

 

The difficulty here is where one person sees progression [the Whig view of history], another will see regression. Equality no doubt is a good, but there may be other goods that may need to counter-balance it. Ideology is always simplistic, it reduces everything to a simple idea, such as equality. Imagine a completely equal society.. one of utter sameness with no differences between people. It is utopian. The ideologues, such as the more intellectual of the feminists, lack pragmatism and a sense of reality.

 

Not at all, but the psychology behind men who feel entitled to encroach on another person's personal space and a rapist are closer than you might think. Especially when we start to talk about rape outside of the traditional "stalking and attacking women in alleyways" area and into the far, far more common realm of overstepped boundaries in a sexual situation. This is where that spectrum is important to analyse. The vast majority of rape cases are not strangers raping strangers, but cases in which women are otherwise powerless to voice their opposition to sex before or during the act. Marital rape, rape within relationships and rape in casual sexual encounters is far more common than the "creepy stranger in the dark" and it always comes back to the entitlement that I'm talking about.

This has already been covered in this thread, but intent and impact are two very, very different things. A man might "cat-call" or "leer" at a woman but he most likely sees his behaviour as harmless banter. That stems from both entitlement and from a lack of action on society's part. There's also a very fine line between obvious cat-calling and an inappropriate comment. See my earlier example of "show us your smile, it's lovely". It's not as obviously as "nice tits" but it still lands on this spectrum of an uninvited and unwarranted comment on someone's appearance. I'm not at all advocating that people shouldn't have random interactions in public, but merely that you should think about what you're saying before you say it. And then, beyond that, to accept that if someone doesn't like what you've said or how you've said it, that's entirely within their right. You don't have the privilege to tell people how they should feel about your actions.

And the complete opposite of that is men that would subjugate all women and reduce them to nothing more than sexual objects meant only to continue the bloodline. Seeing as that's pretty much been the status quo for most of humanity and now seeing how it ultimately has impacted on women in general, I'm inclined to see the "levelers" as an attractive alternative. If we're going to continue mentioning extremes then let's put them into perspective please.

I find the argument of "complete equality = the death of individual identity" to be a bit tired. Until we completely breed all emotion out of our brains, individuality will always exist, as well it should. Societal equality and societal conformity are not the same thing.

 

So basically `don't be an arse`.

I think the majority of guys here asking if its okay to compliment girls in public aren't going to entitled sexually aggressive men.

The majority of entitled sexually aggressive men probably don't feel the need to ask or debate if its alright on an internet forum.

But for the shy guy with a good heart who has a serious confidence problem some encouragement to know that it is okay to compliment people in the street if done correctly is more useful then saying `don't be an arse`.

 

Looking back through this post, I feel most of the frustration comes from the fact that pointing out the `dont be an arse` is insulting.

Of-course its stupid to be offended by an internet discussion.

But its like someone walking up to you and being `don't go being a rapist now`. The common reaction would be, Why were you assuming I was a rapist in the first place? That`s deeply insulting. As well as being a `obviously sherlock` moment for the vast majority of people

 

If you stop assuming people are calling you a rapist and instead see how a potential comment that you made might make someone feel personally uncomfortable, then we will have made progress in this discussion. I'm not equating "nice" comments, or even cat-calling with rape. I'm saying that when men feel entitled to make a comment on a woman's appearance, it stems from the same psychological area as a number of more troubling behaviours. This is important. If we as a society don't call out the more "minor" things (particularly if they make others feel uncomfortable) then there is no further barrier between a "minor" act and more and more serious acts down the line. Rapists don't become rapists overnight. They get there through the tiniest of actions and attitudes that are accumulated along the way, generally over a long period of time. A sense of entitlement over other people is a major warning sign.

 

That was just an example.

If you where black and you went into a shop and a complete stranger walked up to you and said `dont go stealing things now` you would be incredibly offended. Because the initial onus is the assumption that you are going to steal something, even if the statement `dont go stealing things now` taken on its own is just obvious advice.

In a similar way when being like `don't make her uncomfortable` is insulting. Because it makes the initial assumption that you would be making her uncomfortable.

Maybe im just in the minority but every time I have had a conversation with someone on the street they have been very happy to talk to me and I have made some great friends this way. No creeped out offended people, no activation of the `entitled` part of my brain that somehow eventually leads to becoming a rapist because `reasons`.

`Rapists don't become rapists overnight. They get there through the tiniest of actions and attitudes that are accumulated along the way, generally over a long period of time. A sense of entitlement over other people is a major warning sign.`

So you are equating it with rape, despite saying that you are not. You are putting it on the same sliding scale, which is ridiculous and incredibly insulting. As well as having a very questionable view of human nature.

 

Again, you're the one equating these comments with actual rape, not me. I'm just trying to say that entitlement is the common factor in the spectrum of negative human behaviour (negative human behaviour being specifically behaviour that affects another person in a negative way), of which rape is one one end of. The two are very clearly linked.

Unfortunately your own personal experiences aren't enough to shed light on an issue that affects literally millions of other people who have experienced otherwise. And you're missing the point that people who have these kinds of entitled attitudes and behave in a subsequent way are not aware of the fact. Not only that, but you're only aware of your own perspective of those situations. Many, many times women appear to laugh off, smile and otherwise "accept" a comment when internally they're actually very uncomfortable.

No, no and no. I'm saying that all human behaviour exists on a spectrum and that attitudes can have benign and evil results depending on the environment in which they exist.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I'm not equating talking to strangers with rape. I'm simply saying that the same confident, swaggering attitude that allows men the confidence to come up to a woman and talk to her belongs on a spectrum of behaviour that becomes more and more troubling as you go along. I have this trait. All humans have the capacity for it. It's what you choose to do with this ability of entitlement that dictates the kind of person you are.

 

I think we all agree that some system of manners are required, and that rude, boorish behavior is unacceptable.

The middle murky area up for dispute seems to be this 'men feel entitled to make a comment on a woman's appearance'. I take by 'entitled', you mean men have a right to do that. To me this language seems strange and inappropriate because it is politicized. From a common-sense perspective, surely we want to use the language of manners, morality, civility and common decency.

Now, from a male perspective, from the perspective of a man who finds a woman attractive, he has a natural instinct to want to meet this woman. Being civilized [hopefully], he will go about it in a charming manner. He might talk about her appearance, or not. He could talk about any manner of thing. This is a dance, and the perennial art of Eros. And of course, the same could be equally said of a woman. Even back in Victorian times, she would drop her handkerchief. An academic and 'frigid' feminist may know of or care nothing for this.

Of course, I'm trying to find a common ground here, but no doubt our worldviews will color our perceptions most of the time. In many ways, we are interpreting the world in different ways.

 

`Again, you're the one equating these comments with actual rape, not me. I'm just trying to say that entitlement is the common factor in the spectrum of negative human behaviour (negative human behaviour being specifically behaviour that affects another person in a negative way), of which rape is one one end of. The two are very clearly linked.`

I agree there. Entitlement can be a cause of big problems. Empathy is very important, probably the most important human trait.

`Unfortunately your own personal experiences aren't enough to shed light on an issue that affects literally millions of other people who have experienced otherwise. And you're missing the point that people who have these kinds of entitled attitudes and behave in a subsequent way are not aware of the fact. Not only that, but you're only aware of your own perspective of those situations. Many, many times women appear to laugh off, smile and otherwise "accept" a comment when internally they're actually very uncomfortable.`

So after stating how the assumption you are making someone uncomfortable is insulting in the very next post you... assume that they are making them uncomfortable.

Also there are literally millions of other people who have also experienced otherwise to the uncomfortable`ness you are talking about. Who have been completely comfortable and very happy to have been complimented. Many of these people might have fallen in love and both there lives improved dramatically because of it.

`No, no and no. I'm saying that all human behaviour exists on a spectrum and that attitudes can have benign and evil results depending on the environment in which they exist.
I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but I'm not equating talking to strangers with rape. I'm simply saying that the same confident, swaggering attitude that allows men the confidence to come up to a woman and talk to her belongs on a spectrum of behaviour that becomes more and more troubling as you go along. I have this trait. All humans have the capacity for it. It's what you choose to do with this ability of entitlement that dictates the kind of person you are.`

So you are admitting you are putting it on the same sliding scale. Which i disagree with you hugely about.

In fact I disagree with you hugely about a lot of things you have written. But I highly doubt we are going to be changing each others opinions through an internet forum.

 

Everyone. Calm down boys.
Dont make each other an enemy. It is awesome to advocate your point of view.
Just reduce the amount of condemnation or you will have an enemy instead of a partner as a result.

Luv u

 

i saw somewhere:"if it do good looking guy it's nice, but if it do average or ugly guy it's creepy"...

 

I'm not trying to condemn anyone. I'm trying to communicate a widely misconceived notion of feminism, which is that aggressive and entitled behaviour does not exist in a vacuum and is in fact informed and reinforced by unchallenged behaviours that society deem as unimportant.

Insinuating that I'm broadly accusing men of being rapists or humans as ultimately evil is wilfully missing the point of everything I've said.

You can disagree with what I said, but the one thing you can't deny is the experiences of millions and millions of women. In my own country, a recent survey of university students has seen a staggering 50% of students having experienced some form of harassment (ranging from unwanted verbal comments to more serious assaults, with the vast majority of victims being women) in 2016 alone. This kind of data is extremely serious, and cannot be dismissed as much as some people would like to deny it.

 

Would you agree with Aristotelean ethics that virtue exists in moderation, and vice lies on either extreme of this virtue? Here we have quite a different reading of behavior on a spectrum.

Now this puts quite a different spin on your spectrum, for that reads like a certain kind of behavior is the thin edge of the wedge [that it's a subtle form of violence?], and that if not checked might result eventually in actual violence.

By the Aristotelean reading [the difference between an Ethics and an Ideology], it would be a most excellent, adventurous, and magnanimous virtue to 'hit on' confidently open up a conversation with a women you find attractive.

This is very important for a generation of men who have, sadly, more often than not, through addiction to the internet, never learnt this social skill. And if the learning of this skill may go in no small way to their recovery from an isolating addiction holding them back in life, then these ideas of feminism we are here discussing are very problematic. Theory is fine, but it has to be evaluated by real life.

 

But we are not trying to deny it. The fact that 50% of students having experienced some form of harassment is horrible and something should be done about it.

But don`t you see how bringing it up is a form of condemnation, the same way as telling someone who is black in a shop to `don't go stealing now`. Its making the assumption that we are people that need to be told this. Which is insulting.

Of-course this is not a private conversation but an internet forum, so maybe some readers might need to be told the `obviously sherlock` statements of `don't go being a bad person now`

 

I think you articulate well and intelligently the feminist view. I am obviously of a different view point. What I'm interested in is the dialogue where sometimes you arrive at that middle position where both parties can agree. I don't think this is so much both parties compromising, but them rather coming to see some important distinctions, and clarifying some ambiguous meanings, and thereby perhaps opening the 'debate' up to a new vista which would almost constitute a third position.... a synthesis.

As for 'rape culture', I think this is very relevant to certain ivy league universities/ fraternities in the US. 'The Hunting Grounds' is a very informative documentary... to be found on Netflix. In a nutshell, these institutions serve to foster violence against women insofar as they are incentivized NOT to report rapes, and hence do not enforce the law against criminal behavior. If rapes were reported, they lose prestige, and so more rapes are committed.... a vicious circle. The logic of Capitalism/ free markets is involved in this.

 

I get what you're saying, and I agree that it's insulting that people still need to be told "don't go raping now". But in actual fact, what is actually coming to light is that the definition of rape has changed. Rape has traditionally been seen as the "lurker in the dark", the stranger who preys on the weak and innocent. In actual fact, the vast majority of rape cases are perpetrated by people who don't realise that they are committing it. The modern conversation on "consent" is ugly and uncomfortable, but unfortunately it needs to be had. There are people who think it's ok to expect sex from their partner or spouse even when they have not received affirmative confirmation that they want to participate. There are people who think it's ok to engage in sex with a partner who is drunk, unconscious or otherwise incapable of giving consent. These are the behaviours that are the most insidious, frequent, unseen and unchallenged. They are all examples of entitlement.

I apologise for not bringing up these relevant facts earlier - I genuinely forget that the word "rape" is so charged and elicits images of men with balaclavas in alleyways, but the unfortunate truth is that most rapists are normal people who don't know they're doing anything wrong.

 

Thank you very much, and I think you've done well to articulate where you're coming from. These tiny moments of synthesis (which I hope we're doing now) are not insignificant and contribute to some very large and positive societal shifts, so thank you for allowing that to occur.

I'm glad you brought up the term "rape culture" because in my experience people tend to shut down when it's brought out in discussion, so thank you. As you've said, it's something that is the result of society's passive role in allowing environments in which rape occur frequently and aggressively, rather than any kind of pro-active, "go forth and pillage" kind of message which some tend to view it as. I also agree that the logic used by Captialism and its main "meritocracy" pillar is a contributor to this environment. But that's another discussion.