Is okay to healthy masturbation without porn?

Discussion in 'Self Improvement' started by Whitemyger34, Jan 22, 2019.

  1. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    Yeah, it's from HPV, but it's not very common.
     
  2. What's wrong with sexually objectifying my friend? Maybe she likes to be. Maybe we're at a point in our relationship where mutual respect will always be a thing, so we can be okay with things like that because our partners allows us. How am I supposed to be sexually attracted to my friend if I don't train the "reward/addiction" centers in my brain to respond to her? What if I get a form of ED specifically caused by psychological states? Am I not allowed to remedy it by fantasizing about my friend to become more aroused to her while she's gone, and in turn become turned on during sex?

    Masturbation isn't love in any way, and, in general, I wouldn't want to love anyone the way I masturbate. I would, however, want to masturbate the way I love people. That to me seems like the only way.

    Masturbation is a tool, fantasies are a tool. There is nothing mysterious about what they to the human mind and body, it's all about how they are used and why that leads to unhappiness. You can't argue against that. That would be like saying alcohol causes unhappiness, or money does, or other drugs do, or sugar does, or smoking does. Sure, those may be bad habits that lower out quality of life, but they don't necessarily control our emotions. And don't try to say that masturbation lowers my quality of life. No, it's how I handle it. Masturbation is not bad for the body and there is an article out there about how it helps the heart. And fantasies aren't bad either. It's when we create phantasies that produce a lack of empathy that we feel empty. I used to feel guilty about masturbating, too, until I realized it was just the fantasies. I used to think I had to stop fantasizing, until I realized most of my fantasies are bad because they don't relate me to the person I'm fantasizing about. If they did, it would be like any other love dream, regardless if it's about sex.

    Often times in the Bible it is usually the extreme that is protected against. In rare cases, this can lead to extreme over-compliance. (For example, the way some Muslim groups behave.) How can you be sure you're not taking the Bible too literally if you don't also rely on your own experience? OR, if you do rely on your own experience, do you still acknowledge and respect the experience of others?
     
  3. This is the age old problem of interpretation. You can be easily deceived if you approach things by interpreting what the scriptures do NOT mean. For example, if I asked you "What is an apple?" And your reply was... "An apple is not a pear, it is not a tree, or the colour blue; an apple does not taste like chicken." I would say that while those statements may be true, you still have not described what an apple IS. Since we believe that the Word of God should be taken as the commandments from the Highest Almighty Authority... then one should ask oneself.. Well what DOES the scripture mean and how can I apply it. Reading through the entirety of the scriptures and the repeated prohibitions on, lust, selfishness, covetousness and idolatry... there is not way to intellectually and honestly say that masturbation isn't sinful based on derivation from the principles of what God is against in the Bible. Experiential reasoning is subjective. While persons will use their experience to inform their beliefs (as it does form a source of knowledge), it would not be advisable to rely on experience alone as a source of truth. For example, I have never seen a black swan in real life, yet they exist. The word of God is objective truth. God is external to His creation (Holy =separated), and the laws He writes are objective truth... simply because He is God.
     
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  4. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    I think it's self-explanatory, but...If you're having porn-like fantasies about her then when real life sex comes and she is not performing up to your P-standards, then you might not get excited as you should = PIED.
    I never said M is bad, I said it's bad when it involves P or fantasizing or if done in excess. Please read my previous posts. Also your analogies with booze and smoking don't make sense because P is the underlying drug, not M (unless someone is a sex addict and not a P addict). This is also untrue:
    If it lowers the quality of your life that will affect your emotions...
     
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  5. I didn't say that at all. Of course having
    realistic fantasies is a thing, that's how we get realistic expectations. But I'm not aroused by porn fantasies or unrealistic expectations, I'm literally aroused by HER. Sure, triggers here and there, but i design my fantasies to make myself aroused not only by her body, but also by the connection and love we share. I don't think that counts as lust at all and I'm sure as hell not getting PIED.

    Okay. My analogies are meant to illustrate the fact that emotions are a choice and therefore different for everyone. I didn't realize you meant with porn or excess, but I do believe pornography is always dangerous. Maybe I meant fantasies to be analogous. Does it make more sense that way?

    And just because someone has a low quality of life does not make them unhappy. There are times when people don't know their quality of life and are happy but then they see it in comparison to others and they are unhappy. This is the same as relinquishing control of emotions to an external state of being, rather than an internal one. Why can't the person go back to being happy after learning about their existence? The answer is because they choose to not be okay with their existence. Always a choice.

    Edit: and actually, while they each have different consequences, p and m are the same in that both can be done to the point of being unhealthy. Even if you don't p but do m you can still hurt your self and maybe you get off to self harm? Is it fantasy at that point or psychosomatic?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2019
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  6. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    Ok, this sounds good
     
  7. JoeinUSA

    JoeinUSA Fapstronaut

    MO without P (albeit you think up some images, supposedly, to get aroused) is still getting your dopamine drug fix in your brain, which perpetuates the very sexual and relationship problems discussed on this site still. Getting your drug fix "on demand" like any addict is the very problem; your brain is overly drug-saturated adversely. Porn need not have anything to do with it. And, somehow I think you know this anyway. If not, try it for a while, and see what it does for you.
     
  8. I'm glad we reached an understanding
    What's your compiled view on things?

    I'll have to stop riding my bike then, because it gives me a dopamine high.
    Oh wait, that's a healthy activity.
    What exactly is it that makes PMO unhealthy? Rhetorical, seeking answer.
     
  9. My only answer is that it can be overused easily and addictive and therefore unhealthy because it depletes the body (related to dopamine) with some sexual erectile dysfunction and energy levels.Also potentially socially isolating ie. a reclusive solitary activity not so good for relationships. Lastly spiritually it is quite a selfish, self centred activity so unhealthy in that respect. It can also be coupled with P, damaging moral decision-making ability.
     
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  10. You hit the nail on the head.
    However, I would like to add, when you really get down to it, all actions are selfish and God does not care what you do. He will simply punish us for our wrong doings, and he does that through our choices. It's our choice to do the things that make us unhealthy, and if that is how we are punished, then we choose how we are punished and will continue to be punished until we change the framework around which we PMO.

    I know it seems paradoxical that God would not care what we do but also punish us, but really, we punish ourselves. We are part of God and that is how we get this power. In his image didn't mean what God looked like physically, it just meant that God gave us choice like he has. "God made us as a type of his class."
     
  11. To add to what @Joe Malone said, PMO is known to create various emotional and social problems in the user. Porn is a super-stimulus that hijacks the normal sexual pathways of your brain, causing your brain to physically restructure (to our best knowledge, fortunately reversible).

    Riding a bicycle doesn't do this. It is highly pleasurable, and can be sociable, but it is not a super-stimulus and it doesn't hijack normal brain pathways.
     
  12. JoeinUSA

    JoeinUSA Fapstronaut

     
  13. JoeinUSA

    JoeinUSA Fapstronaut

    A "healthy bike ride" is somewhat of a simplistic and evasive example. Actually, we all need relatively normal amounts of dopamine to live, persist, stay healthy, and survive. Yes, exercise in moderation will give the appropriate life response of a normal dopamine hit, which our body will absorb and process in the right way. Of course, if one became addicted to exercise, one could easily spike dopamine out of control, while ruining their skeletal system by overdoing it, overstressing many internal systems perhaps, and maybe one day advance in the full addiction of becoming a steroid, crazed mongoloid - where exercise is the be all and end all, where socializing, normal relations, intellect, other life experiences are replaced/deprived by time in the gym. It's not healthy to take exercise to an extreme, where one is really self-drugging oneself over and over, over-flooding the brain with dopamine, which is not a normal amount for the brain to process normally and in the healthy scheme of things.

    Eating, too, causes normal and valued dopamine hits, and this is desirable - but again, many fat and obese folks eat for the wrong reasons, even when it has nothing to do with feeding the body, but using food to cope or treat loneliness/depression, triggering excess, flooding dopamine in the brain (the real drug) over and over again, bringing one under the spell of food addiction.

    We can go on and on - what's your pleasure that may become addictive - smoking, drugs, sleeping, pure academia - all of these will spark dopamine hits, and any of these can get and do get out of moderation. And, sex is a normal act, too, that easily is taken to extreme with PMO or uncontrollably acting out, identified by the fact that one would not want to let others know, even close loved ones, about such behaviors.

    As far as the problems that PMO or MO causes, which you ask, there is much here and on YouTube (regarding Nofap) that answer your question.
     
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  14. Whitemyger34

    Whitemyger34 Fapstronaut

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    That’s fine as long as you are happy with your life. Are you asexual? What make you come here for? Addict porn? I just curious.
     
  15. No but I wish was born asexual. I came here because I want to quit porn and masturbation just like everyone else.
     
  16. arken3

    arken3 Fapstronaut

    I'm somewhat germaphobic as well.... you single, bro? :) :)
    ...But to address this topic, your questions do make sense. If you don't want a sexual partner, should you avoid Fapping? It's good to ponder this!

    My answer, as many seem to agree, is: YES. Why? You are a slave to your addictions. PMO was a daily thing for me, and I thought about it off-and-on throughout the day on top of that. My mind drifted into fantasies easily when I didn't want it to and needed to focus. I spent at least an hour searching P each night. I continually told myself I had sex problems because I knew I had PIED and no positive real-sex experiences. The cycle of worry, fantasies, and repetitive PMO is all an enormous waste of my life. The only tangible result from it is PIED and addiction that I now have to work to reverse.

    Whether you want a partner or not, by regularly MOing (and especially with P), you're telling your brain that this is important to you and you are hunting for a sexual partner. Your brain feels unsatisfied, and strengthens the draw back to P / MO again. If you practice NoFAP, you break this cycle, and you have more resources for actual productive things. Do you want to spend a large percentage of your life MOing, or is there something else you'd prefer to do with that time and energy? I think regular MO will be healthy at a lower frequency, when it's not your primary pleasure/drive in life.
     
  17. u376

    u376 Fapstronaut

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    Claiming masturbation to be healthy.....
    Is just an excuse to M....
    It can never be healthy
     
  18. That's an opinion, and is not echoed by the experts in the field.
    Besides, "never" is a long time.
     
  19. u376

    u376 Fapstronaut

    2,638
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    Haha
    Ok.....so you fap occasionally
     
  20. I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. No, I was an addict, and I'm still in hard reboot, so no fapping for me now. I have to clear the addiction from my brain.

    After the reboot, I might never fap again. Or, I might sometimes fap (in a healthy way). I'll see when I get there.
     
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