Is the bible speaking about NoFap ?

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Mike_July_2017, Dec 19, 2017.

  1. Actually yes. The scriptures make reference to two 'Christians'... those who merely profess and those who have been born-again who are in Christ. Technically you didn't answer the question.
     
  2. @Pieman What is your understanding of this scripture?
    Galatians 5:24
    24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
     
  3. So true, like the Buddha said: "It is a man's own mind, not his enemy or foe, that lures him to evil ways"
     
  4. MatthewGrün

    MatthewGrün Fapstronaut

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    Why doesn’t anyone speak of the Holy Spirit? He is central to this “nofap” because without Him I would have surely gone back to my old ways - in fact, I know I would without Him.
     
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  5. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    Hi Gav,

    I did answer the question. There is no such thing as a Christian who is not born again. You make mention of 'Christians' who merely profess Christ, sure, but they're not Christians, are they (hence why you put 'Christians' in quote marks)?

    So, if Jesus said a Christian needs to be born again, then one can assume anyone professing Christ is born again (until the evidence proves otherwise). Of course, asking if someone is born again, doesn't prove anything. If I say 'yes' then what do YOU do with that information? You either believe me or you don't. A better criteria for seeing if someone is born again is whether they accept and practice the teachings of Jesus, merely asking the question (and answering it) is nothing more than a secret handshake to get into the 'born-again' club.
     
  6. @Pieman I ask this question to be informed of your spiritual standing since a person who is not born again cannot discern the scriptures.

    Am I to understand, based on your previous statements, that you are saying that pornography using computer generated images is not pornography because it does not involve 'real persons'?
     
  7. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    So, if we disagree with each other, then you would conclude that I'm obviously not born again because I can't discern the scriptures? Don't you see how I could think the same about you?

    This is why asking if I'm born again really is neither here nor there. If I say yes, and we end up disagreeing, then what do you do? Conclude that I'm not born again? Conclude that you're not born again? Or perhaps conclude that we're both born again, but there is a prejudice/bias that is stopping us from seeing the truth and hearing what we don't want to hear? Or that neither of us are born-again?

    As to your question, I would think if you'd be reading my answers carefully you'd have answered your question. If the computer generated images are NOT real people, then I don't see that masturbating to them is immoral. It's no different to imagining a woman in your head (something I've already said I don't believe to be a sin). But I do think people need to seek God's will for them personally in these situations. But I think there's a slight shift in conversation here, which I'm fine to explore further down the line i.e. areas where external stimuli e.g. CGI images may not be helpful, but the issue so far is whether or not masturbation in and of itself is immoral.

    Right at the start you said that that it's impossible to masturbate without lusting. I've argued extensively what I understand lust to be, so I won't deal with that now, but like I said at the start, it's quite possible to masturbate by focusing on the pleasure and not imagining a woman (though I see nothing wrong with that). You also said right at the start that the pleasure of masturbating/ejaculation is something that God only allows with one's 'covenant partner' (which I'm assuming is a marriage partner?). I replied that God allows us to have wet dreams. You didn't deal with either of this observations in response to your points, so I'd be interested in hearing them now.
     
  8. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    Just what it says. If we follow Christ we won't give in to the lust of the flesh, i.e. we won't do something immoral.
    You clearly think masturbating (or maybe even thinking about sex?) is immoral and constitutes lust. I don't. So where do we go from here?

    Perhaps you can be clear what it is about masturbation that you think is immoral?

    Is it touching oneself with the intent to cause pleasure irregardless of what goes through the mind?
    Is it ejaculation outside of a covenant partner?
    Is it thinking about sex?
    Is it having a wet dream?
     
  9. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    Hi Matthew,

    I have shared some teachings of Jesus so far in this dicussion, and Jesus did say that his teachings are 'spirit and they are life'. He also said that the Holy Spirit's job would be to 'remind us' of everything that Jesus said.

    I know someone has mentioned a teaching of Jesus about cutting of ones hand or plucking out ones eye if it causes you to sin. Certainly if we're going to watch porn and masturbate to it, then we need to think very seriously about obeying Jesus here!

    Perhaps you can share some teachings of Jesus (the Holy Spirit) that you think directly relate to masturbating being a sin?

    I'm happy that you feel you've turned a corner and give thanks to God for it.

    Of course, without knowing your situation, it's hard for me to comment to much. When you say you'd go back to your 'old ways' what do you mean? Masturbating to pornography, or just masturbating? You see, I get the impression that a LOT of people on nofap have turned or are turning from a life of immorality, i.e. masturbating to real people (and probably for many years, and many who may be married while doing so). The link between masturbation and pornography and the horrible feeling that comes from masturbating to it, is so burned in people's brains/spirit that it's difficult to separate the two i.e. how masturbation isn't immoral, but watching porn and/or masturbating to it is.

    Perhaps there is a fear for people when they hear someone teach that masturbation is not immoral, because they're afraid that if they start wanking they won't be able to stop themselves from masturbating to porn, and that certainly is a possibility. But that doesn't mean masturbation is wrong. Just like I was saying to Kitty, someone can be addicted to chocolate cake. Their addiction becomes SO bad that they end up stealing from people just to feed their addiction. Their life is taken up with thoughts about chocolate cake, and they're miserable because they're unhealthy, fat, and constantly looking for the next hit. So one day they wake up and decide to stop eating chocolate cake. They even join a forum with others who have also decided to stop eating chocolate cake because they don't want to give into the affections and lust of the flesh. They've swung to the opposite extreme. Then someone comes along as says ''Hey guys, it's not that eating chocolate cake is immoral, it's just stealing from others to buy the cake that's immoral". What that person says sounds frightening because we know how weak willed we have been in the past.

    Anyway, like I shared before and I'll share it again. If someone genuinely believes they shouldn't masturbate then don't masturbate, do it in faith and obedience to what you sincerely believe God to be saying. But by the same token, don't go out and fornicate with someone, but wait to have sex until you're married. There are very few people who are willing to the same standard across the board, but God is clear...no sex outside of marriage.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  10. @Pieman wet dreams are associated with lust also. Sperm are resorbed into the body naturally. But even so... what is found in nature is not the basis for righteousness. Neither is morality.

    You have stated (logically consistently)
    CGI pornography is not pornography because it does not involve 'real persons'. You would be at pains to find even the most militant secularists to agree with you much less Christians. Even the 'science' does not agree with your position. It IS pornography... and is damaging to the spirit of a person.

    If indeed a person could masturbate without thinking of a sexual act it would mean that they have indeed extinguished their fleshly urge for sex... and this would negate the necessity to masturbate seeing your reasoning is that it is there to prevent us from committing what you think is an even more heinous sin of fornication.

    The greek word for fornication 'porniea' does not refer only to 'normal' sexual acts outside of marriage but a varied host of perverse sexual acts and is metaphorically applied to idolatry of the heart. You cannot just choose to say a word means something by the worldly definition but rather investigate how this word was applied in the scriptures. Indeed the scriptures distinguish between an 'iniquity' and a 'transgression'. An iniquity being a sin in the heart as opposed to a transgression which is an outward act of sin.

    Ezekiel 14:3
    Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be enquired of at all by them?

    Lucifer was cast from heaven because of an iniquity.
    Ezekiel 28:14-16
    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so:
    thou wast upon the holy mountain of God;
    thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created,
    till iniquity was found in thee.
    16 By the multitude of thy merchandise
    they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned:
    therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God:
    and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub,
    from the midst of the stones of fire.

    Before David sinned by (by committing the transgression of) sleeping with Bathsheba he sinned in his heart by lusting after her (both in coveting that which was his neighbour's and in the sense of sexual lust).

    You should ask yourself how can I conform my beliefs based on scriptures and not the other way around.

    Proverbs 3:5-7
    5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart;
    and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    6 In all thy ways acknowledge him,
    and he shall direct thy paths.
    7 Be not wise in thine own eyes:
    fear the Lord, and depart from evil.
     
  11. Little kitty

    Little kitty Fapstronaut

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    What if we see this problem from islamic religion?do you want to know??if not,its ok
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  12. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    Who decided wet dreams are associated with lust? Does it say that in the Bible, or did Jesus say that?

    Can you define what lust means to you. Is it thinking about sex? Is it playing with yourself while thinking about sex? Is it wanting to even have sex? Is it ejaculation outside the confines of a 'covenant partner'?

    Sperm can be reabsorbed into the body naturally, but they also come out in wet dreams quite naturally. You say nature is not the basis for righteousness, the same argument can be applied to us reabsorbing sperm, couldn't it? Both are after all, natural processes. So we need other criteria to determine if something is right or wrong e.g. what Jesus and the Bible said on the subject for a start.

    There's a couple things here. Firstly, I should have read your original question more clearly. You asked if I thought CGI pornography was pornography. Instead of responding directly to that question, I assumed where you were going with it and answered like this:

    "If the computer generated images are NOT real people, then I don't see that masturbating to them is immoral."

    So, yes, CGI is pornography, I have no qualms with saying that. I also said people need to seek God's will for them personally when looking at CGI stuff. But the issue we're trying to discuss is whether masturbation is immoral. It's a wholly different discussion to then work out whether masturbating to CGI is immoral. Because there's two issues there. 1) is masturbation immoral? and 2) is CGI immoral?

    I original brought up this point because I'm still trying to understand from YOU what it is that is immoral, because if it's thinking about sex, then there are people who can 'get off' just by focusing on the pleasurable feeling. If it's touching oneself, there are people who don't need to do that, so on and so forth. What I'm trying to work out is what you understand to be immoral (see the list of questions above).

    You say (italics are mine) ''your reasoning is that it is there to prevent us from committing what you think is an even more heinous sin of fornication". Well, it is what I think, but Gav, read your Bible. Show me were God says masturbating is a sin? You'll find PLENTY of references to fornication (and other types of sexual activity). So it's not just me that thinks fornication is a heinous sin, God does. And I don't think it's a more heinous sin that masturbation, because I don't think masturbation is a sin.

    Here's what blueletterbible.org says about 'porneia'
    1. illicit sexual intercourse
      1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
      2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
      3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
    2. metaph. the worship of idols
      1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
    Thanks for pointing out that 'fornication' doesn't just apply to 'normal' (heterosexual) sex outside of marriage but is inclusive of a varied host of perverse sexual acts. Interestingly, just like with what I've shared about the Bible, there is NO reference to masturbation. So, whose actually attributing something to this word that was not applied in the scriptures?

    With David, yes, he committed adultery in his heart, long before he committed adultery with Bathsheba physically. But that doesn't discount what I'm saying. It just reinforces what I have said about what lust is. Lust is wanting to do something that goes against what God has forbidden. And if you would do it, but only refrain from doing so because of a fear of being caught, you're still guilty.

    Anyway, you finish up by telling me to base my beliefs on what the Bible says and not try and make the Bible conform to my beliefs. The Bible is QUIET on masturbation but not on other forms of sex. That to me is a good basis to form a belief. But, I'm still open to it being a sin, but so far you've not showed me any evidence for it. You can highlight all the verses you like in the Bible that mention lust, but while we still can't agree on what lust is, we're just going to keep butting heads. I've been pretty clear on what I understand lust to be. I look forward to a clear explanation of your understanding.

    Here's the questions again and I look forward to your answering of them:
    (oh, when you say covenant relationship, do you mean marriage? I'm assuming you do, but it's good to check?)

    Is ejaculation outside of marriage immoral/lust?
    Is thinking about sex, immoral/lust?
    Is having wet dreams, immoral/lust?
    Is playing with yourself to bring pleasure, immoral/lust?
    Is wanting to have sex, immoral/lust?

    Thanks, Gav.
     
  13. Pieman

    Pieman Fapstronaut

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    Here's a video I really like, which I feel relates much to what I've shared here. Yes, I did get the analogy of chocolate cake from this video :)

     
  14. Have you joined the Christian subgroup of nofap as yet? If no then please do. It is better to pray for you than discuss this further. Love and peace in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
     
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  15. Ephesians 4:17-24
    The Christian's Walk
    17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness. 20But you did not learn Christ in this way, 21if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, 22that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, 23and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
     
  16. Sananafraz

    Sananafraz Fapstronaut

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    There is bias in every word uttered by every human who has ever lived. I agree that to make your way in life as a useful person, you must choose biases to base your morality upon. Bias is not shameful its a reference point. Do you make decisions based on your past experiences? Of course. It is essential but does not ensure that the truth has been found.

    It is important to consider a persons reference points.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  17. Akt1

    Akt1 Fapstronaut

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    Romans 8 :6
    "The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace."
     
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  18. noonoon

    noonoon Fapstronaut

    There certainly are evil spirits in this world, but we seem to do rather well on our own spreading evil about. I think they usually just plant the seed. We are the ones that help it grow.
     
  19. Akt1

    Akt1 Fapstronaut

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    Lets beat it mate..
    Even if we meditate in isolation at home, good energy Will reach further out in the world than we can grasp...
    Lets start this year and turn it all around..
    I promise You its possible..
    One just has to feel it.
     
  20. There are some very interesting viewpoints in this thread. Thank you to each of you who are contributing, its been some thought provoking reading.

    I struggle on this point as well: Is Masturbation a sin?

    My personal understanding of some of the scriptures is this: the mechanical act of Masturbating is not a sin provided one does not lust (I believe this was brought up earlier in this thread). My understanding of Lust based the biblical view from reading some scriptures is this: Lust is the want or desire to engage in illicit interactions with a woman/man who is not your married partner. If you are able to not lust when you masturbate, then it is not a sin based on my interpretation. Todays society has pornography and masturbation indistinguishable..... think back to your younger years, before internet... maybe you did, maybe you didn't discover masturbation before you saw pornography.... Many youngsters discover masturbation before lust becomes involved, I did, so it is possible to be non-lustful when masturbating.

    These views are my own interpretations and the way I view what has written in the Bible. Although most of what I have said has pretty much been mentioned before, I thought I would add my 10c.
     
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