Is there an afterlife?

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Not that I know of
     
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  2. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Ok, thanks. I'll try to keep an open mind with respect to your suggestions.
     
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  3. JKnight

    JKnight Fapstronaut

    No, it's impossible to know. It's one of the vice grips of religion. People are afraid of death and an afterlife gives hope to a forever existence. The nature of afterlife has been used as a bargaining chip to convince the masses many a time to act in accordance with one creed or the other whether as part of pagan culture or as part of a monotheistic religion.

    The mind i capable of conjuring up quite creative experiences in order to deal with fear or to interpret different events. The mere revelation whilst asleep or encounters with a deity cannot be taken literally as their conscious mind is trying to interpret something that their subconscious mind has tried to provide them but hazily.
     
  4. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    You can't have an afterlife without religion/spiritual guidance, right?
    If you had no spiritual belief, there would be no afterlife to ponder.
    Afterlife is not a scientific assessment. It's a personal (spiritual) belief.

    I think: 1) souls with unfinished business or that cannot begin their transition, remain as earth-bound souls 2) souls accept their death & let themselves leave the physical world & transcend into the spiritual world & 3) loser souls go straight to dantes inferno.

    Then you have the VIP's of souls. These are the elite that get sent back down to earth by God, to keep faith alive. These are your "old souls".
     
  5. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    It's really frustrating that we have to wait and that no one can know. This whole waiting and not knowing thing is agony.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
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  6. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    As I said before in this thread, I don't even know if the soul is a thing since everything seems to occur in the brain according to science and how does a non physical substance such as a soul affect a physical thing such as the brain? And how the physical brain affect the nonphysical soul? The science behind a soul kinda doesn't make sense. I'm not saying the soul doesn't exist but rather that I'm unconvinced right now of its existence.
    - What are loser souls?
    - How does one become a VIP soul?
    - And why create a physical realm in the first place? Why couldn't God just create a spiritual realm only?
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2018
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  7. JKnight

    JKnight Fapstronaut

    Check out Theory of Mind, there is definitely room in the philosophic and scientific world for a soul, it's just defined a little differently than religions would. At the end of the day, religion proposes a philosophy, a worldview that dictates meaning, morality, the narrative of life and death and tries to suggest a structure to the chaos that exists on a qualitative level. Even when/if science could account for every consequence with a natural cause, it still does not take away from afterlife or from a thought out, consistent and reasonable philosophy that suggests a deity.

    Experiences and language are non physical constructs and yet they cause the brain to process them.
    Many questions and assumptions here. This is mostly according to the Christian ideology but the Christian ideology, especially with respect to the afterlife doesn't really make much sense because it works with extremes and most people don't exist on the extreme. A Gd that understands humanity would recognise the complexity that is the human existence and, for an afterlife, construct it accordingly, on a continuum.

    According to some other philosophies, including Aristotelian, Platonic and Judaism, amongst others, afterlife is guaranteed. If a person commits to being an animal and is incapable of rising above their animalistic self using their intelligence, then the 'soul' is bound by the mortality of the individual and there is no afterlife, there is just nothingness. Afterlife only begins when a person decides to act consciously, and intelligently to go beyond their animal self using reasoning to make decisions. 'Heaven' and 'Hell' (for the models that separate them) exist only for those people and proportionate to their crimes.

    According to them, there is the ability to get a glimpse of that while alive, which involves the process of breaking free of the limitations of the human mind. In Greek Philosophy that comes through the Active Intellect and through religion it comes through prophecy (which we don't have anymore).

    Reincarnation doesn't exist.
    The simple answer is free will. Mankind stands between animal and spirit, between instinct and intellect. At each end of the spectrum, life is fixed. Animals have no choice but to go according to their instinct (they can be trained, but doesn't give them free choice). Complete spirits also have no choice as where is the room to grow when everything is clear? Both are firmly fixed into their own nature. Only mankind has the ability to choose. In that manner mankind can achieve a perfection or understanding that no other creature can because they must choose, they must use their intelligence to understand and decide which path to take.
     
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  8. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    I really like how you explained the idea behind the need of free will.
    Based on what do you say this? Greek philosophy?
     
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  9. JKnight

    JKnight Fapstronaut

    Yes, as well as many jewish philosophers.

    But there is also also a logical argument that can be made (yes, you have to accept the idea of the soul and afterlife first, but once we've moved on from that point, you can use the following argument). There are 2 possibilities with regard to the relationship between the soul and the individual:
    1. the soul is unique to each individual and the responsibility and the question of the perseverance of the soul and to what degree and to where it goes is directly contingent upon the individual. Obviously the nature of the soul itself still needs to be defined.
    2. The soul is not unique to each individual and can be recycled multiple times.
    According to the first, there cannot be reincarnation, as can be easily understood.

    Only according to the 2nd, is there the possibility of reincarnation. But in this scenario the soul is completely divorced from the individual in question and is only concerned with its 'business'. Which means that the host of that soul can never truly go to heaven or hell, in fact the concept doesn't exist anymore because the soul is not related to the person and the person is just a host for the soul. And only the soul can survive death, ergo you yourself can't go to heaven and hell. there is no reward or punishment for the individual any more. You don't matter, just this 'soul' does. You as an individual lose all meaning. You also cannot be punished for not fulfilling a secret mission that only the 'soul' knows. Either way, afterlife becomes meaningless for the individual. Live your life as you please, so long as your are not an animal and you are good and moral, and aren't 'evil', then what difference does following a particular path or faith make? Why sacrifice your life for it?
     
  10. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    I can't really explain how reincarnation works because there are so many complicated factors to consider - what about the first bearer of the soul, is the second incarnation a different person, etc, but Jewish theology does give room for the possibility of reincarnation with a simple explanation: as the soul is spiritual, and drawn from the essence of God, it is made out of an infinite "material", meaning if you take from it, the source remains the same in quality and quantity. A parable to that is a candle's flame- if you use that flame to light another candle, and another- that original flame doesn't weaken and/or die out.
     
  11. JKnight

    JKnight Fapstronaut

    To an extent. Obviously, religion is heavily involved in afterlife as it uses afterlife as a means by which to convince its followers to live according to its doctrine.

    I'm not sure if it can ever be proven but there are some assumptions that can be made giving certain circumstances. First, afterlife cannot exist for mortal human form otherwise it can't be considered afterlife. Then, the only thing that can exist in an afterlife must be some entity that is bound by the human form, tied into certain aspects that allow for a sense of self, a consciousness, intelligence, etc., and but can also be unbound from the physical life given the right circumstances. We will call this the soul.

    The way to test for this is probably impossible. The acquisition of knowledge or intellectual capabilities beyond the ability of the limited human, would attest to an entity that is capable of surpassing the limitation of the host body. Examples of this includes prophecy and being bound to the Active Intellect. You might even argue that someone who goes rebels against the deterministic path and set of actions that they should have taken and truly exercised free will might also attest to this. If this is true, then you might argue that if this entity is capable of surpassing the human limitations, it might also be able to exist post-mortem as it is not completely bound by the mortal shell; the rules which govern it would be different. But there are a string of assumptions here.

    The only way to prove afterlife in any idea is to discover an ability for the consciousness to exist as energy but in a manner that still has individual consciousness and that it is possible for the human conscious to ascend to that. Or to have irrefutable proof from Gd and the whatnot
     
  12. JKnight

    JKnight Fapstronaut

    There a lot of assumptions there as well, especially about the soul. Most of the jewish opinions that talk about reincarnation are from a side called the mystics. Most jewish philosophers don't agree with the mystics in the sense that we have no idea how to define the metaphysical realms and all that.

    The soul isn't infinite. If it was infinite it couldn't be contained within a human host. In fact even some on the more mystical side say that the soul is not infinite. Only gd is infinite. But even if what you say is true, that's still not reincarnation. That's basically just another soul being born from the former and coming down as a different soul or a different individual. It is not the reincarnation of the original soul.
     
  13. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    To all Christian participants and members of other religions in this thread that I attacked, I sincerely apologize and I am sorry for propogating the negative stereotype of atheists of being attacking and condescending of theistic beliefs or even implying that I or my beliefs may be better in some way or another... I hope you didn't go away with those stereotypical beliefs and if you did I apologize. Your beliefs are not stupid and I'm sorry if I insulted anyone.
     
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  14. Fightyourlowerself

    Fightyourlowerself Fapstronaut

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  15. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    truth is, nobody has any idea. We're all just figuring stuff out at the same time.

    Even if we knew, which we can't, what does it matter?
     
  16. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    You shouldn't be
     
  17. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    It slightly, keyword slightly, annoys me that everybody thinks that when we die theres going to be nirvana and sime utopian society paradise. I think i believe in an afterlife (i say w zero proof). But has it ever occured to anybody that the paradise is on earth youre living right now?
     
  18. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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  19. Awedouble

    Awedouble Fapstronaut

    I don't know what transpired in this thread so far but I appreciate this even if it is not intended for me.

    Speaking for myself, which involves a big Buddhist influence it's more that what is known is not as important as this precious human life, which has the potential and possibility of awakening. The Buddhist notion of nirvana is not some other place, it is literally written that it is not other than samsara.

    If I figure this life doesn't matter, and go for the absolute/ultimate in terms of the afterlife or otherwise then PMO doesn't matter, whether I or other people around me are addicted doesn't matter and even if you believe it is morally wrong it seems to me the potential exists to not care as much simply because you're focusing on the future.

    Now contrast this with an attitude that everything here and now matters, every person and their life, and in fact all sentient beings as we say in Buddhism - it is obviously a hugely different emphasis and the latter is more compassionate and engaged.
     
  20. Mr. McMarty

    Mr. McMarty Fapstronaut

    Does Nature Teach that There Is Life After Death? https://verticallivingministries.co...idence-for-life-after-death-by-dr-r-c-sproul/

    Plato faced the question in a deeply personal way when he visited his beloved mentor, Socrates, in his prison cell. As Socrates prepared himself for execution by enforced drinking of hemlock he discussed the question of immorality with his students. The Socratic argument for life after death is recorded by Plato in his famous Phaedo Dialogue.

    Plato explored the question primarily from the vantage point of analogies found in nature. He detected a kind of cycle that was common to nature. He noted that spring follows winter which in turn moves inexorably toward another winter. Winter does not terminate in itself but yields again to spring. The cycle goes on as day follows night and heat follows cold. The pattern continues. He examined the drama of the germination of the seed into flowering life. For the seed to bring forth its life it must first go through a process of rotting. The shell of the seed must decay and die before the life that is locked within it can emerge. He saw here an analogy to life and death. Just as a seed must die and disintegrate before the flower emerges, so the human body must die before the life of the soul can come forth.

    Plato looked beyond the realm of flowers to the animal kingdom and was stimulated by the drama of metamorphosis. The beauty of the butterfly begins in the grotesque form of the caterpillar. The caterpillar appears as a worm, bound to the earth, virtually immobile and unattractive. The worm forms for itself an insulated cocoon, withdrawing from the outside world. The cocoon remains dormant and inert for a season. In time the drama mounts as a new creature begins to scratch and stretch its way out of the cocoon. Wings and a body begin to appear and suddenly the woven prison yields a magnificent soaring creature of multicolored beauty. From the “death” of the caterpillar comes the new life of the butterfly!

    These analogies from Plato do not present compelling evidence for life beyond the grave. Plato understood that they were but analogies that provide hope in the face of mystery. He was aware that butterflies do not live forever, but he pointed to the complexities of the various forms of life that surround us to cause us to move with caution in the face of unbridled skepticism.
     

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