I've found a way out of the struggle

[ZenAF]

I get it seems too black and white for you, but I personally view porn as being inherently morally wrong, so the personal gain of someone from participating in that wrong doesn't nullify its wrongness. Keep in mind I'm not saying the pornstar is therefor a bad person, as circumstances, knowledge, etc would be what determine the individual's moral culpability/character. Another example would be theft. I view theft as being inherently morally wrong, but I don't necessarily see the person who steals as being a morally bad person as there could be circumstances which mitigate their culpability.

With that said, I don't think porn attracts healthy individuals who choose freely to be pornstars. I think it scoops-up people who are broken, abused, and lost and uses them until they have nothing left --some are even trafficked. It's just not a profession you go into if all is well in your life. Granted, there will be exceptions to every rule, and I think a well adjusted pornstar is one of those exceptions. Sadly, the majority of them are not and tragically end up committing suicide.

I agree with your point that people who get into porn often have some unsolved mental health issues, however I wouldn't use that as an argument that porn therefor is inherently bad, in a "bad attracts bad" kinda way, since people can be attracted by many things. Also I'm hesitant to clearly categorize these people because the human mind can take on many different shapes over a lifetime and who am I to tell that what they're looking for is not the right choice for them. The consequences aren't obvious after all. Some become wealthy, some exploited, some both, some feel better and more confident, others feel worse. My rule is, as long as they aren't engaging in activities that are designed to put others at a disadvantage for selfish gains, I don't have a problem with it. Two people having sex, a camera on them, it's being uploaded, people choose to watch online.
If you get into the trafficking and exploitation, that's a specific aspect of it. To this I'd say there are few larger industries that don't have a dark underbelly. Just look up Cobalt and how it's mined and realize it's in pretty much every device that has a lithium battery in it, and there's currently no "humane max havelar suffering free" way of getting it. Are phones and electric cars evil? No, but they do have blood on them.

I get what you are saying. Personally, I think one of the hallmarks of addiction is your compulsion to think you need to do something you don't want to do. When I was a drug addict, I would curse the drug as I was using it. It's the same with porn, I don't like it, but I feel compelled to use it. A lot of that obviously has to do with the pathways I've formed from habitual use as well as other psychological factors.

I recognize this feeling, I used to feel like that about porn. I wasn't joking in my initial post, I would get an upset stomach after two weeks of NoFap streak and an almost crushing compulsion to go watch some porn. There was nothing exciting or joyful about it, just the feeling of sitting in a train that takes me to an inevitable destination.

I don't feel that way anymore, thank God. It took work to get here and the work wasn't forced abstinence. The work was changing my perspective on porn. Mentally putting it back in it's place. Remove all the power and fear that I gave it. There's nothing powerful or special about porn. It's just some goofy videos. It shouldn't be the center of anyone's life whether in terms of obsession or in an effort to get rid of it, it really doesn't deserve the attention it's getting. Where focus goes, energy flows.

I don't view this standard of freedom as one I have set for myself, but rather an observed reality. If I can't make the choice to freely stop this unnecessary thing at anytime and never use it again, then I'm not truly free.

I understand what you mean but let's play this through. Let's use an other object of desire, let's say reading books. You love reading books, it absorbs a great deal of your time. You're worried books enslaved you so you're no longer free (feels weird to write that yet people do seem to view their relationship with porn that way). So you decide to quit reading books forever. The years pass... You grow old. You die. Now what? Someone's gonna pat you on the shoulders going "ey good job staying free man!"? I don't mean to ridicule the subject. I want to get to the reason why you do something. "Being free" is a catchphrase that sounds nice, sounds right. What are you doing in actuality? What's the life you want and how "free" do you need to be to live it? In other words how many things do you need to deny yourself and to what degree and how many people will you allow to control you (boss, wife etc) and to what degree to live the life you want? Something everybody got to decide for themselves I think.

That is a great question and I have realized it comes down to belief/faith. My feelings and the affections or lack thereof of others doesn't dictate whether I'm actually being loved. I have felt affection from those who've used me and I have felt nothing from those who've truly cared for me.

Good thing to learn indeed.

Oddly enough, I agree to a point. I think the big difference between your belief and mine is I believe it is God, who is both within and outside of us, who solves these matters.

I know God too but I'm not Christian or part of any religion for that matter. I get the sense that God influences life but how and how much I'm not sure and I'm also unable to clearly differentiate my own biased story from pure observation. I don't think God does anything for me in terms of actually solving my problems, inward or outward. That's my job. God can bring me luck or bad luck when it's the right thing for me or when I need to learn something. But I don't believe in divine intervention. I do believe in taking full responsibility for what goes on inside of me. Which is something that's unfortunately rather rare on NoFap as I learned over the years. People put the blame on porn, which keeps them stuck of course.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Buddhism teaches that it is within everyone's ability to be a Buddha, an enlightened one. Isn't that the goal/purpose of Buddhism? Personally, I don't believe anyone is or can be self-sustaining as I don't believe we were created to be this way. I think only God is self-sustaining, pure existence and perfection.

Hm that's an interesting contradiction as I see it. You cherish freedom which in it's absolute is something like pure existence/perfection and therefor you avoid being dependent. However you also believe that you're created to be dependent and only God is truly free. Are you then trying to be like God even tho you believe you can't be?

I don't doubt your choice to view porn in the beginning was a free choice, but are you still making a free choice to view porn? If you are then I'm happy you have that freedom. If you are not, then I consider you addicted and hope you achieve the ability to make the choice freely some day. You don't have to answer me, but ask yourself, are you completely detached from porn? If not, does your attachment to something go against your core beliefs as a Buddhist?

To go back to the book example, let's say you decided to read books again after two years. Did you prove to yourself that you're free, able to quit or did you just finally gave in to your addiction?
I think one should do what they want to do, as long as it doesn't harm others (Christian core value). If it messes up your life, fix it, which could mean quit forever. Or not, depends. If it's fine, enjoy and don't care what someone calls you.

 

[Deleted Account]

I agree with your point that people who get into porn often have some unsolved mental health issues, however I wouldn't use that as an argument that porn therefor is inherently bad, in a "bad attracts bad" kinda way, since people can be attracted by many things. Also I'm hesitant to clearly categorize these people because the human mind can take on many different shapes over a lifetime and who am I to tell that what they're looking for is not the right choice for them. The consequences aren't obvious after all. Some become wealthy, some exploited, some both, some feel better and more confident, others feel worse. My rule is, as long as they aren't engaging in activities that are designed to put others at a disadvantage for selfish gains, I don't have a problem with it. Two people having sex, a camera on them, it's being uploaded, people choose to watch online.

If you get into the trafficking and exploitation, that's a specific aspect of it. To this I'd say there are few larger industries that don't have a dark underbelly. Just look up Cobalt and how it's mined and realize it's in pretty much every device that has a lithium battery in it, and there's currently no "humane max havelar suffering free" way of getting it. Are phones and electric cars evil? No, but they do have blood on them.

I don’t view porn as ihnernetly evil simply for those reasons. I view porn as inherently evil because it’s the antithesis of love. It takes an act which for human beings should be the highest form of intimate expression and degrades it to oblivion until nothing is left. I’m old enough to remember a time when people used to seal a deal with a handshake! It used to be an act that communicated something more than just two hands coming together; it was a communication and transmission of your word! Your reputation as a person. That’s lost now and our world isn’t the better for it. Porn has done that same thing to sex. It’s desensitized generations of people to no longer care about the importance of what sex was used to communicate and that was a couples selfless love for each other. A love that was so selfless and open it would not only be open to new life but would sometimes even create new life; children.

Clearly based on this answer you can see why I don’t agree with your phone and electric car comparison which I don’t view as evil things, despite viewing the practices of how manufacturers acquire their materials as being evil. You might say ok, but you still use phones or electric cars, but I would respond that I don’t buy electric cars for this reason and as for phones I try not to buy from manufacturers that participle in those practices; however, phones and cars are mostly necessary tools in this day in age, so if I did my remote cooperation doesn’t rise to the level of guilt for the companies evil business practices. Porn is neither good or necessary and it’s very existence is supported by my clicks and views. This makes my participation less remote which increases my culpability and guilt.

Anyway. I’ll try to respond more to your other points later.

 

[Deleted Account]

I don't know if I understood correctly, but I disagree with the idea of giving the brain what he wants (porn in this scenario). We have put our lives on misery because we spent months or years watching thousands of videos of people having sex. Most guys got mental problems, some got sexual problems, and other people even got health conditions like obesity, sedentarism, etc.

It's like if you say to a junkie he should smoke crack everytime he wants and he will be fine. These poor dudes already destroyed themselves and nothing matter more than the quick pleasure rush. Or it's the same if you say to someone suicidal he should **** himself because he has the will to do it. I believe we ALL need to quit destructive behaviours and habits, because those things will end with our lives soon.

However, I agree with the point about not thinking about sex or porn. The less you think, the lesser chances of relapse. Most guys relapse on NoFap because they quit PMO, but keep thinking about that OF girl, or about this porn actress, or maybe about a IG profile with hot girls, etc. I took years to figure out that cutting EVERY sexual stimulation is the most effective way to beat PMO addiction. Stop fantazising, stop reading erotica, stop sexting, stop everything.

 

[ZenAF]

I don’t view porn as ihnernetly evil simply for those reasons. I view porn as inherently evil because it’s the antithesis of love. It takes an act which for human beings should be the highest form of intimate expression and degrades it to oblivion until nothing is left. I’m old enough to remember a time when people used to seal a deal with a handshake! It used to be an act that communicated something more than just two hands coming together; it was a communication and transmission of your word! Your reputation as a person. That’s lost now and our world isn’t the better for it. Porn has done that same thing to sex. It’s desensitized generations of people to no longer care about the importance of what sex was used to communicate and that was a couples selfless love for each other. A love that was so selfless and open it would not only be open to new life but would sometimes even create new life; children.

I see and I agree that this is true for society at large. Again this can't be applied to every individual who consumes porn, it depends how one grew up and whether someone learned about the deeper meaning of physical contact in the first place. Yes if one never did learn about the deeper levels and porn's the only education, which is true for a, I'm assuming, large part of society, then porn is standing in the way of living their best life.

I don't know if I understood correctly, but I disagree with the idea of giving the brain what he wants (porn in this scenario). We have put our lives on misery because we spent months or years watching thousands of videos of people having sex. Most guys got mental problems, some got sexual problems, and other people even got health conditions like obesity, sedentarism, etc.

It's like if you say to a junkie he should smoke crack everytime he wants and he will be fine. These poor dudes already destroyed themselves and nothing matter more than the quick pleasure rush. Or it's the same if you say to someone suicidal he should **** himself because he has the will to do it. I believe we ALL need to quit destructive behaviours and habits, because those things will end with our lives soon.

First off it's important for you to note that I did not make a general comment about every addiction out there. This is relating to porn. And again, porn addiction is not the same as a substance addiction, there are overlaps but also clear differences. Hence a different approach is required.
Second I'll tell you the same as someone else in this thread, be careful not to ascribe everything that goes wrong in your mind to your overuse of porn. That's a naive simplification of the challenge of maturing as a person. Overuse of pornography will mess with your reward system, your focus, sense of sexuality and sensitivity in the body. These consequences can stack with other problem causing factors in your life and eventually cause something like depression, low self-esteem etc.

Cutting out everything that you seek out without understanding why you seek it out in the first place and without replacing it with something sustainable, does. not. work. Your brain will rebel and will drive you deeper into the weeds. You want to find balance inside and outside instead of jumping from one extreme to the next.