Looking at women = objectifying women?

A

aron

Fapstronaut
This is a conversation started on another thread.

aron said:
I gotta say that checking women out is something normal.

1. Women dress to look good, and when a men is checking them out its flattering for them. They WANT to get the attention of men, they WANT to know that they are attractive for men.

2. The reverse is also true, women also like to look at men.

3. Women are beautiful. Period. There is no objectifying of women by checking their physique. If you would consider that a woman has nothing to offer more than a beautiful body, than that would be objectifying.

4. Ignore people who say that is superficial. Better yet, acknowledge it, confirm it and accept that label. This way you are avoiding an useless argument. People who say that (usually girls) they just want to challenge you to change your behavior, aka stop looking at girls. But these girls are just that, girls; insecure about their looks, insecure about their sexuality. They most likely don't have anything to offer looks wise and consider that they are in disadvantage and that's why they want a man (you) to also "look" at her personality and disregard her looks.

5. Someone saying that you are superficial is just an opinion, in the end. And everyone has an opinion. Don't change your behavior based on someone's opinion. Know your true value, know what is right and wrong in your book, and don't follow other people's moral code; follow your own moral code.

6. If you would want to get the attention, for example of your crush, you would go to gym, groom, dress well. And if she check's you out and compliments you, you wouldn't be offended, would you? You wouldn't consider that superficial, would you? She's not making a character judgement based on your looks, she's just acknowledging your effort you made to look good. It's the same way around. You are acknowledging her effort she made that day to look good.

7. Doing nofap got me to realize the natural beauty of women around me. Until now, only (some) porn actresses would look good, and the real life girls would just be ugly. But since I stopped looking at porn, I am noticing girls more and more, and I realize how beautiful they are, in their unique shape and size. So for me this is a positive thing.

Hope this helps. By the way, I am also at day 9,10, depending on timezone. Would you consider partnering up?
Stay strong and clean
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benignintenz said:
1) It isn't required to be attracted to men or to want to be attractive to men to want to look good. All that is required is self-respect.

2)There is a significant body of work that disputes this. At least the way you seem to mean it.

3) I think what you are saying here is, you are attracted to women. This is fine, but should not be confused with something emanating from them vs something you are projecting onto them. If you are viewing women as an object, instead of for example, a human being, you are indeed objectifying them. That is the definition of it.

4) I agree that if it is your intention to be superficial, you should own it, and not call it something else. I don't know that people particularly care if you change your behavior, so long as your behavior never affects them. People resisting objectification are not just girls, and it is not a symptom of insecurity, it is a symptom of strength and humanity.

5) That those who are engaging in objectification are superficial, is not an opinion necessarily. If you are operating on a superficial level, you are superficial. If you intend to proceed along superficial lines, own it. if owning it bothers you, change it.

6) I wouldn't pursue health in my life for a woman, but through a sense of self-preservation, and self-respect. I wonder if going to a gym to attract someone you are attracted to is a particularly effective strategy either for health or for relationships. If she isn't making a character judgement based on your looks, she is not being superficial. If she compliments you on your looks, she is being complimentary, but it is indeed in a superficial way. I work in a professional environment, and occasionally there are comments on appearance. This is considered high-risk career behavior, in the same way talking about religion and politics is. I wouldn't be offended, but I would wonder what is wrong with them and begin to look for other problems with them.

7) You seem to be making some personal progress via nofap which is great. I do wish you well with it and am not trying to piss you off with my response. I would politely suggest however, that some of the notions contained in your OP seem off the mark vis a vis reality and could easily be interpreted as offensive, or simply close minded. I am sure that is and was not your intention.
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1. Your argument is also valid. Some women will dress good out of self-esteem. But not all of them. Some of them are just "attention w*ores" and will do it just for the confidence boost that they get from men looking and noticing them.

2. It's my personal observation. I don't have the "science" to back it up, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you know any research on the topic I would be interested.

3. I think we are saying the same thing, just with different words. Check my last phrase and your penultimate phrase

4. I agree that objectifying women, or men for that matter, is wrong and should not be done.

5. Those that treat a woman as an object are superficial people; totally agree with you. On the other hand, checking a woman out, or in your words, showing that you are attracted to her, doesn't automatically mean you are objectifying her.

6. I agree with you. As a man, if you do all that just for a woman, then your decisions are not the best one you could be making. Maybe the example was not the best one, so let me rephrase it. Instead of doing that for just a woman, some men do it to get more attention from women in general. In fact, that's the main reason for many men go to gym (especially if they are in their early 20s).
I have to disagree with that making a compliment is superficial. In my book its fine to do that, and doing it doesn't necesseraly mean I am attracted to that person.

7. I am not sure what you "are politely suggesting"; you didn't end your phrase. And it did bother me that you called me closed minded. I'd prefer you would keep your judgement of character to yourself. But if my remarks were "off" and I am not complying with the rules of the forum, then I will accept any punishment by the moderators or admin.

I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that your belief, is the following: checking a woman out automatically means that you are objectifying her AND that you are superficial.

Sorry if I understood it wrong, so please correct me.

I will just put it out there, that my belief is this one: checking a woman out DOESN'T mean you are objectifying her nor that you are superficial.

If we have divergent opinions and beliefs let's just settle that we agree to disagree. I have no intention of pushing my opinions onto you, and I don't think you want to do the same.
 
This is interesting for sure.

1. Physical attraction can't be considered wholly evil. It's natural. Research shows that on average people are attracted to people that are about as attractive as themselves.

2. Women dressing to get attention is common knowledge. Women themselves say that the strongest among them find their confidence from within rather than from attention from men.

3. Objectification is a word that gets thrown around a lot. It just boils down to using another human's image for your own benefit. It dehumanizes them regardless of how benign your use of their image may be.

Some questions

1. If a girl you don't consider to be physically attractive hits on you and wants to date, should you turn her down (even if you like her personality) because you don't feel physically attracted to her? The only alternative I see here is dating her out of guilt- which is much worse.

2. Should you avoid dating plus-size women because you aren't attracted to them, even though it is in some sense superficial? (Their lack of effort in controlling their health could play a part.) But what about men who are attracted to big women, can they be considered superficial because they won't give skinny women a chance? Can people be denounced for having preferences?

3. Is finding beauty in women's faces (rather than the typical boobs/butt) less objectifying or as objectifying as boobs/butt?

4. What if you do notice boobs and/or butt? (Viscerally, as in automatically.) Should you feel ashamed?
 
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You have really brought about interesting questions:

1. Every time I dated a girl that I didn't also like physically, it ended badly. No matter how charming how her personality was, I also need to be attracted to her. She would sense sooner or later that she's not the perfect one for me, and this would cause a lot of problems. I would start looking more at women to whom I would be attracted and jealousy would ensue.

2. I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So yes and no. I would avoid dating plus size women if I am not into them. On the other hand, if someone likes these kind of women I wouldn't label them superficial. Considering that, I wouldn't call anyone superficial for having preferences regarding the physique. I wouldn't say that a man who likes slim women is superficial, nor that the one who likes big women is superficial. But if he dates or sleeps with a woman JUST because of her looks, then I would say he's superficial.

3. Don't know if there is truly a difference

4. I wouldn't feel ashamed. It's natural and instinctual for a man to check a woman's butt/boobs. It is in his survival programming to check whether a woman has the qualities to offer him good kids, and this boils down to waist to hip ratio and (possibly) size of boobs. So I won't feel ashamed for an instinctual response.

So, go for the woman you like most, and don't feel ashamed about it. Choose her for her looks AND for her personality. Know what you want and go for it without compromising. These are the words that I live by.

How would you answer your own questions?
 
I like the insight. I think it also was different before nofap, at least for me, when I really overvalued looks and ignored personality traits, while being fairly insecure about myself.

Good question, I think it goes like this for me:

1. If you feel like giving it a chance, then go for it. Mind you, if you feel like giving it a chance, then you are probably attracted to her in some sense and should probably ignore the societal pressures of only choosing hot women.

2. I am just not attracted to plus-size women and this necessarily includes the physique factor. I can say that they're not keeping themselves healthy (which is part of it), but also they just do not appeal to me. But personally I enjoy working out and athleticism so even skinny girls who don't exercise fall outside of my preferences (for dating at least).

Note: I think it should also be remembered there still is a societal component here. All throughout history men have been attracted to bigger women (not morbidly obese, but chunkier), and apparently their attractiveness goes up when economic times are harsh.

My point is that preferences exist, and you can't erase them. I agree with much of what Benignintez said but some of what he's saying seems to discount this, or at least make it seem morally corrupt to even acknowledge that physical attraction plays a role in male/female relationships. Again, this is a subjective concept, and I hope I'm not misinterpreting his statements.

3. I think the face is somewhat less sexually powerful as the rest of a woman's body which must be covered at all times. I think this something I focus on more but I find women's faces to be quite beautiful. Perhaps this is why some Islamic cultures force women to cover their faces up.

4. I think it's natural to "notice" women's body parts- like you said we're hardwired to want that, and that is what we strive after instead of porn here. I think it gets problematic when you ogle for too long and make the person uncomfortable. I don't try to actively stare at girls like this, and I'm usually staring at their faces more anyway. Like I said, I "notice" these things.


I think there's something romantic about going through nofap and noticing girls like you never have before. Remember though, that this is actually the natural state of things, and only 50 years ago would likely have not been the case for you. Just because you're starting to feel attracted to girls again doesn't means everything's hunky-dory in terms of your relationship with them. I still have plenty of stuff I need to work on, I knew this even when I was 80 days in.

But it is worth it.
 
aron said:
This is a conversation started on another thread.

I hope it’s ok if I bud in. Do you mind a woman’s perspective?





1. Your argument is also valid. Some women will dress good out of self-esteem. But not all of them. Some of them are just "attention w*ores" and will do it just for the confidence boost that they get from men looking and noticing them.

In my case it’s both. Yes of course the attention is cool sometimes but I am not craving for it. Meaning not being dependent in that and being my main motivation of doing it. I quite simply dress sexy because I feel sexy. I think that goes for many.

2. It's my personal observation. I don't have the "science" to back it up, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you know any research on the topic I would be interested.

3. I think we are saying the same thing, just with different words. Check my last phrase and your penultimate phrase

4. I agree that objectifying women, or men for that matter, is wrong and should not be done.
I agree in general but think this is too hard expressed. Women are objectified or reduced to their body. But that’s also normal male reaction which for me is ok. It’s part of a transition and I didn’t judge men.

5. Those that treat a woman as an object are superficial people; totally agree with you. On the other hand, checking a woman out, or in your words, showing that you are attracted to her, doesn't automatically mean you are objectifying her.
I agree and it’s ok to check out. We girls check out too. Just not as desperate often. But I do..

6. I agree with you. As a man, if you do all that just for a woman, then your decisions are not the best one you could be making. Maybe the example was not the best one, so let me rephrase it. Instead of doing that for just a woman, some men do it to get more attention from women in general. In fact, that's the main reason for many men go to gym (especially if they are in their early 20s).
I have to disagree with that making a compliment is superficial. In my book its fine to do that, and doing it doesn't necesseraly mean I am attracted to that person.

7. I am not sure what you "are politely suggesting"; you didn't end your phrase. And it did bother me that you called me closed minded. I'd prefer you would keep your judgement of character to yourself. But if my remarks were "off" and I am not complying with the rules of the forum, then I will accept any punishment by the moderators or admin.

I think, and correct me if I am wrong, that your belief, is the following: checking a woman out automatically means that you are objectifying her AND that you are superficial.

Sorry if I understood it wrong, so please correct me.

I will just put it out there, that my belief is this one: checking a woman out DOESN'T mean you are objectifying her nor that you are superficial.
I think the fear of objectifying is overrated. We too objectify men. If a guy with a six pack comes most(!) women “objectify”...

If we have divergent opinions and beliefs let's just settle that we agree to disagree. I have no intention of pushing my opinions onto you, and I don't think you want to do the same.
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Vortis said:
This is interesting for sure.

1. Physical attraction can't be considered wholly evil. It's natural. Research shows that on average people are attracted to people that are about as attractive as themselves.

2. Women dressing to get attention is common knowledge. Women themselves say that the strongest among them find their confidence from within rather than from attention from men.

3. Objectification is a word that gets thrown around a lot. It just boils down to using another human's image for your own benefit. It dehumanizes them regardless of how benign your use of their image may be.

Some questions

1. If a girl you don't consider to be physically attractive hits on you and wants to date, should you turn her down (even if you like her personality) because you don't feel physically attracted to her? The only alternative I see here is dating her out of guilt- which is much worse.

2. Should you avoid dating plus-size women because you aren't attracted to them, even though it is in some sense superficial? (Their lack of effort in controlling their health could play a part.) But what about men who are attracted to big women, can they be considered superficial because they won't give skinny women a chance? Can people be denounced for having preferences?

3. Is finding beauty in women's faces (rather than the typical boobs/butt) less objectifying or as objectifying as boobs/butt?

4. What if you do notice boobs and/or butt? (Viscerally, as in automatically.) Should you feel ashamed?
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Depending on what you mean by "plus size" I would say this. If your ultimate goal is to raise a family with a woman you love, then you should find a virtuous woman. If a woman is obese and refuses to put in the effort to live a healthy life, then they are a lot like a porn addict who refuses to leave porn behind. Both are the result of self control issues, and sensible mature man and woman would want someone mature enough not to get stuck in a miserable state. Let's be clear here, after a certain weight on a certain body height, your fat and muscles will start to do damage to your bones and joints. I would be happy to marry an ugly virtuous girl and have in fact invited ugly girls on dates before. (Before you freak out I do believe in objective beauty, so you can have an ugly girl with a good heart). However, past a certain weight it's easy to tell when a girl's own body is hurting her slowly. I don't want my future kids thinking that's normal.
 
I recommend a switch to bulleted lists. It might be more confusing but it's more aesthetically pleasing. Form over function.
 
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