marriage in quantum superposition

Discussion in 'Significant Other Journals' started by DefendMyHeart, Nov 14, 2020.

  1. Pardon my lack of response to all points, specially those addressing me: this thread isn't about me. But the following question is worth everyone's consideration.

    Do you have a requirement to love her if she has not reciprocated your love? Suppose you were, as in the case of a gentleman posting here recently, in the situation where your wife never wanted to have sex with you. Is sex part of the marriage covenant? Most people would feel it is. If you were in a sexless marriage, would you still be required to love your wife? If so, upon what basis? And if not, why not just seek a divorce? If the wife has no requirement to respect her husband, why not just get a divorce? Why would you wish to remain with someone you don't love or respect? And what is it that the typical marriage vows say? While there are many versions, and not all will read this way, the first one listed under marriage vows in Wikipedia, a Catholic vow, says this: "I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad, in sickness and in health. I will love you and honour you all the days of my life."

    Love and honour.

    But perhaps you and others here never pledged to honor your spouse, so you're off the hook.

    Friend, you may say you don't feel your wife is obliged to respect you. It is true that respect is better earned than commanded. But respect is more nuanced than this dichotomy would suggest, and it can be deserved without being either earned or commanded. One should respect his or her parents, regardless. And one should respect one's spouse.
  2. Yes, that's exactly what I was referring to. And I think it's far more ubiquitous than most would acknowledge. Can anyone know what he or she does not know? As my grandfather used to quip: "They don't know they don't know." For anyone to claim they are too aware to have succumbed to the Dunning Kruger effect seems, well, incongruous with the reality of the effect itself, and certainly a bit arrogant.

    I once caused a great problem on my family's farm because I thought I knew what to do when in fact I was ignorant and did the wrong thing. That experience opened my eyes to see that I had been proud, and at the same time, I realized that I had been completely unaware of the fact until then. I learned, through that trial, that pride is like a computer virus--it hides itself so that one does not know it is there. Now, if someone points out pride in me, I do not quickly deny it, but take some time for a little introspection. I know now that if I were proud I would not realize it, and I appreciate the true friends brave enough to point it out to me.

    What is the contention? Are you disagreeing with him? Or is he feeling intimidated? Does it not seem that his statement brings up a point that is important in his mind? Why is that a focal point for him? I don't need the answers to these questions, but they might help you consider your relationship from his perspective if you take time to considerately answer them for yourself.
  3. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I am completely aware of the fact that there is a lot out there that I dont know. There is absolutely no possible way for me to know everything, and there is no possible way for anyone to know everything. My comment regarding the awareness of the situation was in reference to my own thought processes, as well as that of my husbands, in my journal. Which I should point out, is MY journal and here for my own reflection of myself and my marriage. The fact that you generalized my comment to that of all the knowledge of the world in an attempt to make me feel inferior is where the arrogance lies. You are viewing my reflections, my trauma, and my navigation through my own life through your subjective lense. Having confidence in oneself does not make one arrogant.
    The point of contention has been my intelligence that my husband perceives, yes, and how I feel about it is irrelevant. How he feels about it is an issue that he alone will need to solve. That is not my responsibility. It is as though you want me to take his perspective and should he feel intimidated by it, then I should dumb myself down to where he sees fit. No. Just no. No woman or man should have to do that just because the other is uncomfortable with it.
    I will reiterate, this is my journal. I will speak in my journal how I see fit to speak in it in order to heal myself from what I've been through, and if that intimidates someone, well, that is their issue not mine. You pushing your subjective views onto me is not going to make me change course in how I navigate my way through my trauma. You telling me I am supposed to bow before my husband because of marriage vows is not going to change anything about how I treat my husband, and how I deal with my marriage. Those are your views, and they are separate from mine. If you want to give advice, great. But if you're on here to try and degrade me, and tell me I am wrong with how I deal with my own emotions, which it appears as though that is your intent, you're on the wrong thread because I will not stand for it.
    MountainInMyWay and eagle rising like this.
  4. Tarsus

    Tarsus Fapstronaut

    Yes. Love is not conditional on whether or not my wife loves me. Love is a choice I make every single day, regardless if my wife reciprocates it.
    Regardless of the condition, yes, I'm required to love my wife. That's the value by which I live and by which I believe is commanded by the God we worship. I do know of a gentleman on here that is in that very condition - his wife chose to no longer have sex with him. He chose to continue in his commitment and love her. That's the choice he made, that's the choice I would make. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be difficult, but I look to a home not of this world. I didn't marry my wife because of how much or little we were going to have sex. If my wife were to come down with an illness that made her unable to have sex with me, I would be in a sexless marriage, and my covenant vows carry as much weight.
    This is a decision every person would need to make for themselves. I wouldn't seek a divorce because I believe in scripture which tells me God hates divorce, and it's only allowed under the specific condition of adultery. It is not allowed if my wife lost respect for me or if I lost respect for my wife.

    I never said a wife has no requirement to respect her husband. I said a husband is not entitled to his wife's respect. That's a very different thing. I do believe that regardless of which vows are spoken during a wedding ceremony, there is a level of respect and honor each spouse imposes upon the other. My point was that respect is something that must then be maintained, cultivated, and earned. If my wife were to become abusive, verbally or physically, if she didn't care for me, if she constantly demeaned me and put me down - she will lose my respect. In an ideal world, I would do my best to be an example to her and a husband that would change her heart so as to not treat me that way. I'm not perfect, and I do have a breaking point I'm sure, but that doesn't change the original point. I respect my wife. I love her and how she loves me, how she cares for me, how she cares for our children, how she cares for our household and the countless sacrifices she makes on a daily basis, for her selflessness. My wife deserves and earns my respect. How am I any different?
    I don't necessarily disagree with you here. Remember my analogy of respect as a bank account. There's an initial level of respect that is "commanded" by position. My parents command respect by the mere fact they are my parents. However, that is not the totality of the respect I may or may not have for my parents. The way they've treated me and cared for me, the attention they gave or didn't give, the morals they lived by, all of that "commands" a different level of respect. If my parents were abusive to me, if they hated me, if they had no morals and were scum of the earth, what respect do they command from me? I would have to fulfill the duty I believe I would have to fulfill according to God's instruction, but that doesn't mean I'm required to respect them, nor does it mean I'm allowed to disrespect them either. I'm commanded to love my enemies, even if those enemies are my own family.

    I concur that one should respect one's spouse, but that respect is conditional. Not a single person on this earth is entitled to my respect. I married a woman I already loved and respected with the expectation that she would be the same person, and I believe she had that expectation of me. I've failed her in multiple arenas, and she still has chosen to love, honor, and respect me, but there is no question that I can never take her love and respect of me for granted. I will work to earn her respect, and the more I do so the more her respect for me will grow. That's the relationship I'm in, and that's the relationship I believe God expects from every marriage.
  5. Here's what you said:
    "In an attempt..."? Really? I don't mind if you think I'm arrogant. But please do not put motives in my heart. And please know that I am definitely not here to put you, or anyone, down. I would say nothing here if I did not think it might help you. I do feel you need to do some more introspection and to try to see things from other perspectives. Isn't that why you are posting here? If you could solve all of your own problems, why put them out to the review and comment of others?

    I fully agree that it is irrelevant to me. But to your husband?

    I'm sorry that you feel this way. Perhaps it does not help to consider it a responsibility, but it may still be a privilege and an act of love and compassion to help someone else get out of the mess their own actions got them into.

    Taking someone else's perspective is not about intimidation. I'm not sure where those two concepts got juxtaposed. Taking others' perspectives is a means of finding understanding and compassion for them. Nor did I say you should dumb yourself down, and I'm disappointed that you would use such verbiage with a total stranger, one who has been posting here in an effort to help.

    I'm well aware of that, which is why I have not attempted to respond to the inaccuracies you have here posted about me. In your journal, and for that matter anywhere on this forum, feel free to believe whatever you like about me. This discussion, in my mind, has never been about me. I bring examples from my personal life only to illustrate things which I hope you will understand--it's for you, not me.

    Well, I can see that I certainly am on the wrong thread. There is no point saying more, now, is there? But I hope you are able to have more open conversations with your husband and that he finds a way of opening your mind to hear his perspectives.

    My last advice to you both: When you find yourself at loggerheads, don't have a verbal slug-fest. It will get you nowhere. Get out the traditional paper and ink, and write. One cannot interrupt or argue with a letter while reading it, and it's much easier to get one's full message across. Furthermore, one can sleep on it, review it again the next day, and perhaps even make changes to it to ensure it is the best possible expression and with the greatest chance of a successful outcome.

    I truly wish the best for you both. Perhaps, when you are in a better mood, you might come back and reconsider the posts I have made here, with sincere attempt to understand what I am really trying to say, not simply trying to bash it to defend yourself. Barriers must sometimes come down before understanding and healing can take place. I'm sorry you are hurt. I understand the need to be defensive. I've been there at times in my life. Sometimes the truth will hurt, but, as the Bible puts it: "Faithful are the wounds of a friend." As you don't know me, and haven't considered me as your friend, I have no more I can do to help.

    I truly hope you find happiness in the best way possible.
  6. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    Oh, I'm not mad. I just wanted you to see what it was like to have a stranger on the internet assume and accuse you of things without knowing or understanding the whole story.
    eagle rising likes this.
  7. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I've told my husband for years that if I ever left him, it wouldn't be because of his addiction, it would be because of his dishonesty. These words finally sunk in last night.
    What I expected from my husband and what he thought I expected from him has created an enormous battle in his mind. He strived to be perfect because he thought that was what I expected of him, and that was what fueled his justification for lying to me. If he didn't tell me things, in his mind, I would see him as perfect. Then when he would finally confess, he would sink into depression and create a vicious cycle of continued lies and betrayal because he didn't reach his goal of perfection, something I never expected of him. I'm aware of what happens in the brain with this addiction. I'm aware of what he is addicted to. I never expected him to get better overnight since this addiction didn't start overnight. It was years of priming and conditioning that was built up that had to be undone. This was going to be a long process and I was aware and prepared for that. What I wasn't prepared for was the lying and constant rebellion betrayal. That is what caused my pain. That is what was tearing us apart.
    Being honest and open is a skill to learn. We are born with this ability, (if you ever want to know the truth about something, ask a kid). Lying is a learned trait. What is learned can be unlearned. What is programed can be unprogramed.
    I know I still have a lot of healing to do on my part. I am far from being myself and feeling whole again. I will continue to do what I need to do to heal myself, as that has now become a priority. My husband now has an accountability partner, so some of the weight has shifted from me to someone else that can help him. He knows I am still here if he is struggling with something, and I will still help him as much as I can. But he is finally taking matters into his own hands now, so there is a relief in that. Despite what others say, our husbands addictions are not our responsibility, and we are under no obligation to help them with it. Being married to someone does not mean we have to take on responsibilities to fix what is broken in our SO's. The responsibilities lie with them to fix themselves.
  8. MadWoman

    MadWoman Fapstronaut

    I haven't posted here in a very long time. But your diatribe shall not go unchallenged.

    First of all, you are gaslighting @DefendMyHeart to an extreme. Stop. Just Stop!

    Second, I find it most ironic you lodge a complaint about others exhibiting self-confidence, yet have little problem exhibiting your own. Think very highly of yourself do you? LOL, I find it most ironic that you utilize the term "ironic" to describe it.

    Third, you expect respect, yet exhibit little for others, and especially your wife. Here is a clue for you. Respect is not something you demand. It is something you command. It is something you earn. Want respect? Try giving some.

    Fourth, you want to use math as an example, I guess to demonstrate your intellectual superiority over your wife and "...I am Mensa...", in so many words. Big deal. If you make her feel like shit, it doesn't matter if you're right. If you are so intellectually superior, you would know that.

    Fifth, here is a simple algebra question. If x=x+7, what is the value of x? Better yet, if as you stated in a previous thread that you were 6"1' and 106 lbs as if you were quite proud of it, what is your BMI? And what's wrong with that number? Do you not find it inherently dangerous? Those were your numbers; not mine. I just did a very simple search because I wanted to understand where you were coming from.

    Sixth and last because I find your feedback exhausing, your UserID "Do all to the glory of God", I find most offensive of all. How glorified is it how you have treated others in here? You did little to lift them up and a whole lot to beat them down to feel inferior to you. Congratulations, that makes you very arrogant and pompous, and well, I'm just not going to go any further than that.

    If you're not addicted as you have stated, what's your purpose here? What are you trying to accomplish? If I didn't know any better, I would say you were a misogynist. Are you a misogynist? It certainly appears to me that you are.

    Don't you dare blame us as women for your or any other addict's actions and behaviors. We wouldn't even be here if it weren't for your bullshit. I can't speak for every woman here, but I can certainly speak up and on behalf of those that won't. You may not even believe it is bullshit, and that's OK. It sure as hell reeks of it.

    Please forgive me @DefendMyHeart. It is not my intent to hijack your thread.
  9. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    Thank you @MadWoman for stating what I should have stated in the beginning.

    His complex was showing right from the start with the "you say you don't want to be superior to your husband,, but you're over here acting superior". That was his own insecurities shining through. He saw me as confident and he couldn't stand it. I agree that his wife must feel like shit because he had to learn to "make peace with her shortcomings" on the perceived lack of intelligence he feels she has. Deep down, I think he knows she's smarter than him and it hurts him. Smart people don't boast about their intelligence unless they feel they have to prove it to someone.
    He did try to gaslight me and he did try to make me feel as though I had some obligation to my husbands addictions. I feel it would suffice to say, that he has not taken full responsibility for his own addiction and would rather blame it on external factors than do some introspection. Until that is done, he will not heal.
    At the end of the day, he didn't make me feel less of myself. He didn't achieve what he set out to do. I'm sure that is what bothers him most.

    Thank you for your support!
  10. MountainInMyWay

    MountainInMyWay Fapstronaut

    Yes, All of this! I’ve been trying to put my thoughts into words about this, and you said it all. This guy came out of nowhere and tried to gaslight a women’s already broken heart - but didn’t know how tough our girl was and got pushback. Who the heck does that on a support forum for SO’s who are trying with all their might to mend their gutted soul?

    Also, I definitely love Jesus and gaslighting will never be done to His glory.

    @DefendMyHeart I’m so glad you can see through power trips like this. You are one of my favorite people on here. I love that you started a Journal.
  11. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I feel as though one of my flaws is that I try to be understanding of other people. Sometimes this can lead me to be too understanding and allow things to get to the point they got to. I know his comments were coming from a place of pain and unresolved issues that he was projecting onto me. That is why I didn't take his attacks personally. When he kept going though, is where his pain was leading to personal attacks. Maybe he feels as though he wasn't trying to degrade me, but he was. Maybe he feels he wasn't trying to make himself superior to me, but he was. These are his own issues he needs to address within himself, and that is why I finally told him to get off my journal. I didn't want other SO's to read what he said and think they owed their husbands their respect and that they needed to change who they are to help their husbands learn to cope. That is not our responsibility. What leads to their addictions is what they themselves need to address. To put that responsibility on us, and make it seem like it is our fault, is asinine to say the least. I hope this guy gets the help he needs so he can learn to be a better husband and a better person. Using the Bible to preach what he lacks in himself doesn't take away the fact that he lacks something in himself.

    Thank you for your kind words @MountainInMyWay I really appreciate them. We sometimes forget that our own reflections can help others who struggle with theirs.
  12. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    Today has not been as much of a struggle as previous days have been. When my husband discloses something to me, I find myself quick to react from a place of anger, even if it isnt warranted. He told me he had a dream about his ex girlfriend. I immediately got angry as though he has control over his dreams and chose to dream about her. I know this anger is from my pain, and I know it is going to take time to fix it.
    These dreams about his ex are reoccurring. They are coming from a place of his own pain that he has yet to resolve.
    In the moment I had forgotten to do my breathing exercises to calm myself down. I felt bad after the fact because this is something he has no control over. He understands this reaction to an extent.
    My husband and I have been trying to work on other aspects of our marriage. He was asking me this morning how he can respond when I am hurt in a way that would comfort me. This is a difficult question to answer since he is the source of the pain. Part of me wants him to hold me while the other part of me wants him to find a new home on Mars. It is a battle because I know he wants to try and help me, but I really don't know what would make me feel better. It is difficult being in this situation to say the least. There is a part of me that is terrified to get close to him again in fear of having my heart ripped out again. Then there is the part of me that wishes for ignorance so things can go back to the way they were prior to D-day. When things were seemingly better.
    Things prior to D-day were not good either, which is something I also have to remind myself. I knew something was off with him. I knew he wasn't "here" with me. Something was just off and I couldn't place what it was. It would come out in passive aggressive statements that turned out to be true. When he would enthusiastically volunteer to go to the store, I would tell him he just wanted to see the cahiers there. That was true. When he would go to class I would tell him he was just looking for someone to take on a date. That was also true. There were a lot of statements I would make like that which were true that he would deny and try to assure me he only wanted to be with me. D-day was confirmation for what I felt in my gut but was too afraid to accept. I wanted to believe his words, that I was the only one he wanted.
  13. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    It just never seems to fail that the moment I begin to think we are heading in a positive direction, something negative happens that puts us at odds with each other. Another disclosure of a deliberate action. More lies about the disclosure that I had to drag out of him before he would admit the truth. This time my anger was justified and only furthers the notion that I need to keep my distance from him.
    There are times where I wonder if I will ever be able to heal. If I will ever be given room to heal. Whenever I start heading that direction, here comes more pain. Here comes more trauma to add to the existing trauma. Drilling it further and further down. Hopefully I am able to reflect more on this tomorrow
  14. MountainInMyWay

    MountainInMyWay Fapstronaut

    I’m so sorry. I hate those never ending disclosures. Staggered/trickle-out disclosures only promote massive PTSD. I feel it stabs out any tiny healing we’ve been working on and adds more and more layers of hurt on top of one another until you can’t breathe. It makes me see why so many people have told me that full disclosures with the correct therapist and polygraph are the way to go... Everything is out at once. A big layer of hurt - but one layer.

    My therapist says I need to write out a safety plan and put a solid time limit in place of my SO disclosing anything new. If not, then new boundaries/consequences that he is clear of ahead of time must be put into process. Same with lying/omitting/avoiding.

    I still have to do this. There’s so much that rests on us. It’s unfair.
  15. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I still haven't done anything my therapist has told me to do yet either, lol. It is so hard to keep up with everything. This addiction is like taking on another child sometimes when you consoder the changes in routine you have to make to accommodate it.
    A safety plan is a great idea though . Setting boundaries is hard to do because we are struggling with our own needs as well.
    MountainInMyWay likes this.
  16. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I remember when I first started this journey with my husband. When I found out he was addicted to P, I though if he just stopped watching it, everything would be fine. I thought that the temptation to look at it was due to him not being fulfilled with me. He was choosing to look at other women. He was choosing to put his sexual energy towards them even though I was available. I had never denied him through our marriage, so I couldn't understand why I wasn't enough.

    Through the years, I have learned so much about this addiction. When I noticed cognitive improvements in my husband after he quit watching, I saw it as an opportunity to turn my pain into something scientific. I could work on a study that might show these same improvements in other people who give up P. Wouldnt that be worth it to give it up? I would think to myself. Knowing how your memory could improve, your thinking capacity could be strengthened, your ability to exhibit emotional intelligence.. wouldn't that outweigh watching P?
    This was partially why I could not understand why my husband would fall back and do things he knew would cause further damage. Why wasn't the drive to be more intelligent outweighing the addiction? It did not make sense to me. I knew at this point that it was an addiction, I had an idea of what it did to the brain, but it was not until I embarked on the research journey and someone on my team sent me articles about P addiction that I realized how extensive it was and how it differed from other addictions. Until then, i had never heard of DeltaFosB.
    When I reflect back on those two years my husband was "clean" before his relapse, I realize a lot of the therapy we did was to target his negative thinking. It was not so much about the addiction, although that was a target, but it was also about what led up to the addiction. I wonder sometimes if this was helpful to him.
    Tarsus and MountainInMyWay like this.
  17. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I have been feeling extremely unmotivated these last few weeks. I have so much to do for school, but can't put my heart into it. I am hoping my visit with my therapist today will help me find a way to get unstuck. We also received two new books that we pre-ordered back in March last week. I was looking forward to reading them, but haven't made it past the forward in either of them.

    I was supposed to practice breathing exercises this week. It was something along the lines of breathing in for 4 seconds and breathing out for 6. I can't even remember what the instructions were. I practiced it last week in therapy but panicked for some reason. When I paid attention to my breathing I suddenly became paranoid about it. Will I keep breathing if I stop paying attention to it? She told me this was due to be being in an anxious state and that was what I needed to focus on doing: paying attention to my breath and learning to slow it down so my body can calm down. I've failed miserably over this week in trying to accomplish this one task. I am wondering if there is an underlying cause for it that is unrelated to trauma. I do sometimes wake up at night gasping so perhaps it is due to that? The fear of no longer being in control of my breath. I'm sure this will take some time to figure out.
  18. Tarsus

    Tarsus Fapstronaut

    I don't think it's possible to recover without a deep exploration of the underlying issues. It's such a dark, tangled web it can be quite intimidating to work through it. I have a much better understanding of why I became the way I did, and it has helped in many ways, but it's also 1 facet of recovery that requires due diligence. I would often find myself focusing too much in one area only to be blindsided by another.

    I think understanding the underlying causes can help us addicts have more compassion for ourselves and open the door for self-forgiveness. When those things occur, the self-loathing that comes from addiction and which can even drive it can be addressed. It's such a horrible cycle - I hate who I am, therefore I will escape by using something that will only make me hate myself even more. It's a destructive downward spiral. Even though I understand, the self-hatred is still brewing just beneath the surface. Requires the due diligence to counter all the things I say and do that poison my mental health.

    Have you ever looked into Mini-habits? I have a serious problem with motivation (add it to the list), but what has always worked well for me is the best way to become motivated is to take action. Sometimes we can allow ourselves to be so overwhelmed with the scope of the task that it prevents us from even beginning it. If you commit to doing something ridiculously small every single day, it can be just the right thing to jumpstart motivation. For example - commit to reading 1 page each day. Do a small, easy task for school each day, and pretty soon your progress will continue to grow.
  19. Trobone

    Trobone Fapstronaut

    I do have a question. Are you asking him to come with these disclosures? Are they old or new? Maybe it's time for him to have someone else to talk with and ask "Is this something I should say - does it rise to that level."

    The reason I ask is the dream you mentioned. He can't help his dreams. The same way he can't help if he's in public and randomly noticed a woman. It's going to happen. Does it really need to be disclosed?
  20. DefendMyHeart

    DefendMyHeart Fapstronaut

    I see what you mean. Perhaps the fact we addressed some of the underlying issues played a big part in his ability to stay away from P for two years, as well as now since his relapse. I told him I am willing to explore this side of him more deeply when he feels ready to do so because it will facilitate his healing. We are looking for another therapist for him to help him with the addiction itself. Childhood trauma is something I can handle on one side while he is addressing the addiction itself with others.

    I've not looked into that, no. I do what you're saying about little things. I have a paper I need to get done, and I keep putting it off, yet I can do a 24 hour turn around on a peer review. I think I'm just better at doing things for others rather than for myself. This is part of what stumps me. Something else to work on, I suppose
    Tarsus likes this.

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