Masturbation is the Real Enemy

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by KeenEye, Mar 1, 2015.

  1. KeenEye

    KeenEye Fapstronaut

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    By calling it enemy, I'm not giving it some kind of power by which it can rival us. Masturbation is just what masturbation is, a worthless thing (the way I see it, at least).

    I've seen in a great many comments and posts that say porn is the bad thing, not masturbation, and it just helps if you quit masturbation along with the primary bad thing- porn. Sometimes this was frustrating because I always thought masturbation was the real bad thing.
    I don't see how watching porn for hours without interacting with it (masturbating) can make you socially anxious, less focused, have less libido, fatigued, lethargic, or ruin your whole day. How can anyone watch porn and not masturbate eventually? An addiction requires a substance to abuse, and the substane you abuse is MOing, not porn itself. Porn is the enocuragement of masturbation. I know that a 'good' masturbation session requires porn to be good. P, M, and O are very related to each other. But it's always the masturbation part that's harmful. The primary harm to porn, beside making you like real girls less (though even on this one, I think masturbation plays the larger role in making you less attracted to them), is that it makes you masturbate. If not porn, then you fantasize and masturbate. I can never get why so many fapstronauts say porn is bad and masturbation is normal. I have on countless occassions watched porn or fantasized for hours, but got really fucked up by the time I masturbated. I can masturbate for 5 mintues without fantasy and get fucked up without any porn or fantasy being included. What happened to the vital contents of semen? Or desensitization of penis? or the fact that you want to die than face the world after a masturbation session? Or when you have abstained for 20 days, then after a masturbation session reality hits you hard and tells you how different you are when you masturbate than when you don't.

    I think that many fapstronauts are still convinced that "masturbation is normal and it helps you explore your sexuality". They still rely too much on so called scientists and doctors, and unbiased, honest scientists' (like Gary Wilson)views on masturbation, while neglecting personal experience. Am I crazy or it is really true that you fall down a pit every time you masturbate? there has even been times when I accepted that I had relapsed and forgave myself, but the suffering that follows PMO sessions came anyway.
     
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  2. Mr.NoFapster

    Mr.NoFapster Fapstronaut

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    Really beautiful said, bro, really beautiful said! For me it's also like you fall down a pit every time I masterbate...
    It sucks, it really sucks...
     
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  3. KeenEye

    KeenEye Fapstronaut

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    Yeah! it's the worst feeling I can get nowadays, especially if it has been a while since I was abstinent and walked out of the zombie mode masturbation sends me into.
     
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  4. Kickthatfap

    Kickthatfap Fapstronaut

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    I think that it is a mixture of both. The masturbation part of it is unhealthy because of what it does to us physically (i.e feeling lethargic or lazy after MO) The porn side of it is unhealthy because of what it does to our minds and our hearts. A lot of us experience brain fog after watching porn. Porn has also harmed the way I view women in general. When I watch porn I don't see these women as people, I see them as objects for me to get off too. Because of porn I have a dysfunctional view of sexuality and women in general. And then as a person i feel like a dirtbag for subjecting myself to the bondage of pornography. In other words I feel like shit. It kills my self esteem and my sense of self worth.
     
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  5. jbastoniv

    jbastoniv Fapstronaut

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    I do agree, M is not a good thing. I feel so much better not MOing. I do feel P is the worst, and M can lead you quickly back to P. O is draining, only if I have PIV I do not feel drained but I feel energized instead. When I MO I don't feel happy and calm, I feel like I need more. Just my two cents worth. You can MO without fantasizing but I do agree regarding desensitization depending on the method. The main reason I quit, beside wasting time and consuming something I know is terrible for people's lives that are stuck in that industry, is the give me the total motivation to seek my wife's sexuality. This has made a difference. My goal is to give up both PMO and M and only O with my wife, it is magical doing that with your wife at the same time.
     
  6. Immor

    Immor Fapstronaut

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    I agree. Porn is mostly a waste of time, but rather harmless on its own. Except that it is linked to MO, which is the real problem.

    If you are worried what watching a video does to your mind, you should also stop watching movies, commercials, and the like.
     
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  7. ^This. They are both together holistically bad. I don't think we should try to separate them. We need to take them as a unit. It is the unit that makes us objectify women, gives us brain fog, saps our motivation, makes us anxious, etc.
     
  8. KeenEye

    KeenEye Fapstronaut

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    I'm glad we share similar views about this. P, M, and self-induced O are undoubtedly related and should be given up altogether by fapstronauts if they want to live a happy life.
    Also, I was hoping to get this across to fapstronauts who give up porn but still masturbate. I want them to realise that masturbation is inseperable from virtual sex (porn, fantasy, webcam, video game sex encouters...etc). Giving up porn while still masturbating is like lifting the much lighter burden from your shoulder while still under the load of the heavier, not realising that you could go alot further to freeing yourself.
     
  9. lp123

    lp123 Fapstronaut

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    you are very right, man. agree 100 percent. I've been clean of porn over 170 days. I masturbated several times in the midst of the reboot, and it fucked me up. lost a lot of progress.
     
  10. KeenEye

    KeenEye Fapstronaut

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    how many days since you have masturbated?
    I'm happy for you bro! and I know. Only when you've been abstinent for a while do you clearly see the difference between when you are on nofap and when you are on zombie-mode
     
  11. jbastoniv

    jbastoniv Fapstronaut

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    No, porn in itself is very bad! It supports an industry of destruction. Read my other post call, "we are what we consume." MO, well, I feel it is not good. I won't say bad because I cannot believe without a lot of will power for a young teenager to not every do it. But I grew up before porn (other than the extremely prized Playboy in the tree house). I do agree with everyone, abstain from P, M, and O. I know this from experience that MO drains you, fogs your brain, and kills your confidence. I feel great not doing it and I find it so much different than PIV.
     
  12. Kickthatfap

    Kickthatfap Fapstronaut

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    I wouldn't call it "bad" per say. The words "bad" and "good" are totally subjective as they are dependent on one's moral system. People have different standards and what's bad for this guy may not be so bad for the next guy. I think it would be more appropriate to say that porn is unhealthy. A lot of the "side effects" of porn are negative in regards to a person's quality of life or lifestyle. If it brings a persons quality of life down then it is unhealthy, if it raises it then it is healthy. This could be subjective as well as different things make different people happy or feel healthy. I guess the key would be to find what's healthy for you and strive to do whatever it takes to achieve that health. By the way what is PIV?
     
  13. PIV: Penis In Vagina
     
  14. Oh, thanks.
     
  15. jbastoniv

    jbastoniv Fapstronaut

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    I've given this more thought, at least from my perspective and experience. M is not healthy. It is a total waste of time and takes your vitality away! The issue isn't P, or M, or O, it is the addiction of all three or any one singularly unless it is PIV! Your hormone cocktail is very different with PIV versus PMO or MO. Feed on the desire of a partner, find her and love her, make love, not just F! Make love, love is the key!
     
  16. Vir

    Vir Fapstronaut

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    My problems are all with MO and no porn. If I MO two days in a row, I feel lousy afterwards. When I don't, I feel much more energetic.
     
  17. Steel Fury

    Steel Fury Fapstronaut

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    It's funny you should mention that, because I rarely watch commercials or movies these days regardless.

    I do think that P is a major problem, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, P distorts your sex drive, and makes you crave MO a lot more than you otherwise would. Without P, I might MO once or twice a week. P makes me want to do it multiple times a day by stimulating my sex drive. The other problem is in the way it presents it's actors. It creates the idea that every woman I approach will F me on command. Apart from being blatantly untrue, it makes me feel bad when a woman doesn't do this, even if she's still being polite, friendly and treating me with respect.

    Frankly, I think P is far worse than MO. I think MO is probably like alcohol. You can cope with it in small quantities without suffering too badly, but P is like cocaine or heroin (admittedly, I've never actually tried those drugs). P is harmful in any dose whatsoever.
     
  18. KeenEye

    KeenEye Fapstronaut

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    But Steel Fury, don't you think that you have enough control over how you percieve women without being on nofap in the first place? if a particular industry with strange, unnatural behaviour have that much power over our views then we should also be abusive to animals, since there are industries where they are beaten for no reason, or make slaves of other people because in a movie there are slaves and no one minds.
    My point is that, without years of objectifying women ourselves so we would make them the ultimate masturbation material, our perception and expectations of them would not be so unhealthy. But it wasn't our fault because the most reliant group of people in health matters- doctors, and certain scientists, alongside so many other people would tell us that PMO are normal and healthy. One virtue of fapstronauts, however, is that we know the truth and nothing can make us dismiss years of personal experience just because some random expert says masturbation is good for you and makes you have great sex! I'm not fully rebooted as I am on my 18th day, yet I've made great progress in seeing women as they are. I've been on nofap for 8-10 months with many failures and have made little progress because I still saw women as sex objects. By the way I can't imagine someone having ED by just watching porn and not masturbating.
    Also, we have our fantasies which can be more erotic and unnatural than porn. The only real harm of porn is that it leads you to MO. Almost all of my relapses were done through fantasies and my fantasies didn't consist of scenarios similar to those on the porn sites, yet I was ruined by MOing to them! It's just very strange if you really think that porn is the problem brother!
     
  19. The way I see it, you either approach PMO from the P side, or the MO side. Both have their own effects without doing the other, and that is why you are both right. Though wrong in the question of which is a bigger problem, because it's like a drug addict and an alcoholic arguing about which one is worse. Answer: both.

    The effects of porn are quite subtle, because it's brand new, compared to MO, which is as old as humanity. Porn can alter ones view on woman without even noticing, though the depth of it varies based on the life before using porn. It leads to the objectification of both women and men, and take sexuality out of its every context. In a way watching porn is like listening to some kind of propaganda. You may resist at first, but if you hear it enough times, you'll accept it. Same with porn. Not to mention that a lot of guys get desinsitized and turn to stuff that they shouldn't, and it will mess up their sexual lives.

    MO, or the other side has more physical, and not spiritual symptoms. First of, loss of "seed" is loss of energy. That's why you feel so down and shitty after MO-ing. The human body needs 72 hours to regenerate, if you MO more often, you are at an all time energy minimum. Also, death grip can be an issue, since no woman can imitate the strenght of the hand in any way. Therefore, when you have sex with a real woman, you won't feel a thing. And that will be your fault.

    Conclusion: both of them are bad, and deciding between them is a matter of personal opinion and experience. For example, I thought that MO is okay to an extent, and porn is the bigger problem. Now I think that MO eventually leads to P, thus it's equally bad. I don't know why it does that, but it does. Guess MO-ing without something juicy to watch is not that fun.

    Cheers
     
  20. WHATTHEFUCK

    WHATTHEFUCK Fapstronaut

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    Im on my 4th day atm I dont have ny new superpowers yet but the weird thing is that I dont really have any urges...Im sure the next 1-2 days will be hell but I will try to ATLEAST survive for 1 week if I do that I will keep on with 2 weeks etc...I will be very proud of myself if I can just atleast 1 week.
     

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