Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. I want to share a perspective on meditation that I think we have not understood. I don’t claim to be an expert, but simply sharing from what I have understood . I think the word meditation has lost its meaning. The image of it in the West has become somewhat more mainstream and there are a lot of different techniques being introduced. I don’t doubt that they can have an effect on our lives, but I feel we have created a goal for meditation. It has become something that we do to try and rid the mind of thought, or experience some pleasurable sensations in the body. By doing this we say we can live more happily, be better in business, cure our addictions and so on. So in this goal orientated practice, we place our attention on that which we are trying to become. Or we judge what we don’t like about ourselves and strive to become something different. You may say:

    “oh but this is exactly what we must do, otherwise we will never become the best version of ourselves”

    I ask if this is really the case?

    The Sanskrit meaning of the word meditation is - to see the measure. Measurement being something that thought has created. If I see a car and say to myself “I must have that” there is a measurement, a gap between that which I have now and that which I want. If I see that I am addicted to pornography and I say “I must overcome this addiction” There is a measurement between that which I am now and that which I want to become” So with this measurement we put effort and will to attain something we hope will make us better human beings. Peace and happiness has become something over there, in the distance. Yet we fail to grasp that which we are now. There is no best version or higher self, you are who you are now and the essence of meditation is to see it for exactly what it is, without judgment or desire to change. There is no process of becoming or overcoming. There is no suppression or denying what is. There is simply seeing, observing, watching , very closely the truth of what you are. I find this to be the most important thing we need to understand about meditation. To go about changing our behaviours through effort and control , brings about a conflict within ourselves. We have an image of who we want to be and get wound up in disappointment and misery when the truth of what we are is something different. Surly you can all see this? I am not in some fantasy here. All this shame and guilt feeds the demand for the escape and the cycle continues.

    To be aware of ourselves without judgment is the highest form of intelligence. The mind is free to see its own nature and in this awareness there is no contradiction and therefore no conflict. It has been understood on a deeper level where our actions and motives stem from and change happens NATURALLY. After all, would we pick up a hot coal if we knew it was going to burn?

    The very judgment of our behaviours creates a state of mind that demands more of that behaviour. Thought divides itself and creates a measurement, a contradiction. The “I” want and the “I” don’t want. But they are part of the same thing. Thought. This is a fact, you can see it for yourself. When the urge to look at porn arises, watch how the mind issues thought that convinces you to have it and thought that tells you not. Just be aware of it. Observe the process of thinking and see this measure. It is there.

    My understanding of all this is still very limited and mostly intellectual but I have pointed out one fact because it simply cannot be denied. See this contradiction in yourself, and watch what it creates. The misery, disappointment, guilt and shame. I am pointing out that there is simply a better way to create change. When we are fully aware of what is happening, the mind becomes very quiet. The seeing has become the action and the mind can begin to let go. This is meditation and there is no method or system that will get you there. Walk the path of the unknown and see the truth of reality. Constantly moving. I have come to find that truth is not a fixed thing. Meditation brings us into alignment with truth by watching it as it moves from moment to moment. There is more to it than this but I do not fully understand it and I don’t want to point something out that I haven’t experienced to be true. Thank you for reading this far. I am still learning and would be interested to hear some other perspectives?

    Be happy :)
  2. Well what I think is this...

    Self improvement is an endless road, and you should make use of as many different tools as possible.

    To understand the world, you need to understand yourself. For you are a miniature of the universe itself.

    Learning never stops. And one should never stop learning.

    Smile and laugh more.
  3. Exactly but to understand yourself you need to see yourself for exactly what you are. You can't see yourself clearly if you are trying to be something else, striving to self improve. Self improvement implies that there is something you are not satisfied with right now. Society has created this idea that we need to keep improving, make more money, get a bigger house, drive a faster car. There is no end to this silly game. Reaching for something and then reaching for something else, living in a constant state of dissatisfaction. I wish we could see the implications of our desires, but they are so self centred that we are blind to its cause.
  4. Well at the end of the day not everyone is unhappy living an unexamined life. In fact the opposite is true for most people who actually go out of their way to seek more truer truths. Anyway... When you realise that you need something more to be happier than you are, it's easy to think it is the next thing you buy that will do the trick, which unfortunately is a vicious cycle with no end and no lasting effects. It works as a numbing agent though.

    When in reality self improvement doesn't always mean adding stuff to yourself. Sometimes it might mean subtracting stuff from your mind/soul that's weighing you down and clouding your vision. So I don't agree that it is a bad thing, in fact it is actually the only thing that will lead you to the right places if you are critical and honest to your own self.
  5. I see what you are saying. But wouldn't you rather know the truth? Not a truth we can read about in books, or philosophy or through drugs. A universal truth that is common to all of humanity. By understanding ourselves, we can understand the whole of humanity. We are not different.
    Maybe its not the only thing that will lead us to the right places? It's just a maybe, but a question that needs to be asked. I have watched it in my own struggle with addiction and I see it in other peoples struggle with addiction. We try and fight it with the same thing that caused it. Our thinking. There are so many implications to this way of trying to change ourselves. So much struggle, so many tears and regrets. I am calling into question wether it is necessary to have to go through all this. People spend their lives in this struggle, trying to be better. If we are just aware of ourselves completely, without our past experiences and beliefs getting in the way, the very awareness will bring about a change. Awareness opens the mind to see everything which is honesty that doesn't demand being critical. Love is not critical, it does not choose, compare, analyse and divide. It sees everything for what it is and naturally brings about purity. If we don't face the problem from holy perspective we spend our lives chipping away at each individual habit, adding and subtracting and there is no end to this.
  6. alphakadabro

    alphakadabro Fapstronaut

    There is a danger in turning to spirituality as a cure for addiction. Spirituality, like philosophy, is the pursuit of truth. Meditation is a means to acquire self-knowledge.

    However, in an addicted state, the brain is compromised. So you cannot seek the truth with the intensity and objectivity required. You are blinded by cravings and malfunctioning dopaminergic signalling.

    First, prioritize recovering from your addiction. And then you can begin a search for the truth.
  7. The malfunction is in our lack of awareness. Our ignorance to what craving actually is.
    So how do we go about recovering from our addictions? From what I have noticed, we are trying to solve the problem of addiction by acquiring knowledge about it. We read books, follow gurus and allow ourselves to be influenced by all this information. All in some hope that we can gather enough knowledge about our addiction to be free from it. Knowledge is not understanding. The solution cannot be found in intellectual knowledge from our various influences. It has to be understood, seen, observed in ourselves. Seeing the truth, there is nothing spiritual or godly about it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2020
  8. The spiritualist and the materialist are the same. Both are holding onto and striving to become. One likes his cars and the other likes his gods.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2020
  9. alphakadabro

    alphakadabro Fapstronaut

    You recover from your addicting by abstaining from indulging in it. Knowledge helps you stay determined to abstain and to combat the thoughts stemming from the addiction with new thoughts you have acquired from scientific research and other's stories.

    Theoretically, you don't need knowledge to beat an addiction. You could be sent to a mental institition with no access to internet for 24-months until your brain fully rewires. Or you could go on a hiking, mountain climbing and camping expedition into the wilderness for 9-months. This would also aid in beating PMO addiction because you aren't indulging in it. Same could be said for alcoholism or narcotics and rehabilitation programs. However, when you are trying to cure yourself as an individual knowledge usually is of paramount importance to recenter and refocus your intention to stay clean.
  10. alphakadabro

    alphakadabro Fapstronaut

    You are using the terms loosely. It isn't clear in what sense you are using 'materialist' nor is it clear what 'spiritualist' means.

    Do you mean an adherent of an organized religion? A soccer mom who practices yoga on the weekend? A yogi who has been celibate for 75 years and lives in a monastery?

    My point was that addiction has its own recovery strategy which is different than the aims of religion and spirituality. Just be clear that you don't conflate the two and thus do a disservice to both.
  11. So thought divides itself and is in conflict with itself. I don't see this to be a useful way of curing our addiction. This constant battle in the mind. The "I" wanting and the "I" not wanting. Do you see what I am pointing out here? Its a knowledge based form of thought battle that suppresses the mind into conformity. Hence the guilt and shame that is associated with relapse. Taking cold showers and running away doesn't help ether. Why can we not just face what we need to face, see it for the truth that it is and recover from a perspective of understanding. A deep understanding that is not the result of a judgment to our selves and a desire to change.

    Please don't take my word for it though, there are too many people telling other people what to think. Propaganda. This is about discovering for yourself what is happening inside the mind. The truth that is there and applies to every human being on this planet. Suffering, loneliness, addiction, guilt, fear, greed are part of our consciousness no matter what nationality or education we have.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 2, 2020
  12. alphakadabro

    alphakadabro Fapstronaut

    Listen, I've read Jiddu Krishnamurti, too. I know people personally who met him in the 80's when he was lecturing in Switzerland. If you want to talk about 20th Century mysticism or the Bohmian Implicate Order, we can. Send me a message or write on my profile.

    Can you start talking in your own words, please? And preferably from your own experience.

    This however, is a very different thing than recovery from addiction. You cannot cure your damaged brain through elevating your meta-cognition alone. This will give you insight into many different pathologies by revealing the triviality and repetitiveness of our everyday petty forms of thought, but it isn't an instantaneous cure of your addiction.

    Addiction is physical, biological and neurochemical. You need to facilitate the brain to heal itself by abstaining from reinforcing the reward pathway and to help it rewire in healthier ways. Meditation can assist in that, of course.

    Abstract metacognition isn't enough to break the urges. You will still have urges and you will be tempted to relapse. You need to fill your life with more productive and meaningful activities than hedonism. Philosophy, theology and so on are great in that regard.
  13. Spiritualist being those who call themselves Gurus, the Christians, the yogis and the followers who accept blindly the teachings of these "paths to truth". They perform their rituals, meditate, pray, read their books and so on with the desire to attain something beyond themselves. The materialist who strives for progress, status, power, something beyond themselves. Both are futile attempts to fill something they feel is missing. They are the same.
  14. You are right, this is the teaching of Jiddu Krishnamurti. If you think this is something I haven't experienced for myself then you are incorrect. I will not go into stuff that I haven't experienced to be true so everything I have written is based on what I have seen. Thought is in battle with itself, its not hard to see. It doesn't require a lot of attention.
  15. @alphakadabro From my own experience, I have spent a lot of time observing sensation within the body. This is what we are reacting to, it is what we are craving. If the sensation can be observed objectively the habit pattern of the mind begins to change. The compulsivness of the minds reactions begin to weaken. This is meditation.
    alphakadabro likes this.
  16. Struggle is the other name for life. Finding food, shelter and sex (talking about basic animal side of things) is what every living organism undergoes from birth to death. Only humans get upset because they have to struggle. (Of course in our case multiple other needs creep up, so this simple example is not enough.)
    Deleted Account likes this.

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