Men are not as driven towards getting a woman as they were in the 60's-90's? Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Dating during a Reboot' started by JSeattle, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. JSeattle

    JSeattle Fapstronaut

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    So this is a just a theory that I have gathered through some input from my father, his friends (of the same general age - 72 years old) and also just my observations while out in the dating world. While out in clubs, bars, social gatherings etc. As well as input from many of my female friends and women I have dated throughout my life. My urologist also has told me testosterone is down an average of 25% compared to young men he tested when he first began his practice in the early 80's.

    The theory is that young men of today do not approach and/or flirt with women with the same frequency or level of energetic drive as young men did during the 60's-90's era. Of course, I am only 34 so I was not perusing women during these three decades so I cannot personally account for how things were then compared to now. However, my father always talks about how when he was young (20's-30's) it seemed all men his age went out solo or with one friend with the goal of scoring a phone number or hooking up. Minimum at least making out at a local make out viewpoint aka "parking." Of course, times were different then but he just said it seemed all men just had a very aggressive drive to score with women and were a lot more confident and driven to succeed. He feels they were just hornier.

    From my observations of today, it does seem like men are still approaching women but I have to admit I have noticed many nights when it seems no guys do. I even have seven close female friends who have commented before that "no men are trying tonight" when they dress up sexy and go out with their cute female counterparts.

    Even women I have approached have said the same. "Your the only guy who has tried talking to me tonight, I'm glad you came along." Or "are all the men here tonight gay or what?" I even have a friend who got married about five years ago. When I asked her how she met her husband, she replied "I was out with some friends at a music festival...he was the only guy that approached me that night."

    With the rise in popularity regarding dance/electronic music here in Seattle, it seems the days of asking a girl to dance on a dance floor are over. At these new clubs, everyone just faces towards the DJ and fist pumps and jumps around as there really is not much room to do anything else. Plus the music is so loud, trying to talk to a girl is practically impossible due to the volume. Maybe this has something to do with it? Or possibly there is something else going on...

    It seems like today, most people go out in groups. Groups of three friends or more and stay in those groups during the duration of their night out. Rarely splitting up and joining other groups or people. I know it is most likely more safe to stay in groups but it almost makes it harder to approach as they have their safety net of friends hovering around to protect whatever female is getting approached or hit on. Plus you get the whole jealousy thing from the other females in the group if one is getting hit on.

    Again, this is all just a theory and I am sure there are many variables. I realize times have changed but I am curious if the men in the 60's-90's did have more drive then men of today. Maybe it's a combination of things. Maybe women were just more pleasant and respectful back then compared to today where they can be real snotty and rude. Maybe men of today just do not even want to bother.

    I do think the rise in available porn, and smartphones have tainted the skills needed for men of today to be successful with women quite a bit. Many young men I have met cannot even seem to carry a conversation with a female or male...but they sure can talk up a storm via texting or flood your inbox with snapchats and instagrams. Haha. Times are a changing I suppose.

    I have to admit, I use this theory to my advantage when I go out and mingle currently. When I see a pretty girl, I always just tell myself, hey she probably hasn't been flirted with today and she will be relieved I approached. Maybe this just increases my confidence to open a conversation but I have had extreme luck by doing this. It's almost like women are starved for men to flirt or at least try.

    Who knows. Just thought it would be an interesting topic to get others opinions on the matter. I am new to this forum and I sure hope I posted this in the correct category.


    J
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2018
  2. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    Oh things have definitely changed. I’m female and 40 but in college and high school men definitely pursued women, that was the 90s. I talk to kids in college today and many have said how did you meet people before online dating? Umm you talked to people in class, at a bar at a party. It made me think they will never know actual real dating. Younger people lack communication skills. I see it when they enter the workforce. They spend their days inside playing video games, texting, on social media and their parents protect them from real life. They don’t know how to talk to members of the same sex yet alone the opposite. Childhood is usually where we learn to interact and you feel comfortable by adulthood but they are not. If yiu read the book modern romance there’s a scene where the author invites 20 something’s to a meeting and tells them all they have to do is bring a parent . He leaves the parents in one room and the kids in another and comes back a bit later. The parents room is loud, they are talking, have all introduced themselves, echanged numbers but the kids room was dead silence, people staring at their phones. Many say this is the way they communicate it’s not bad just different. I say relationships require face to face interactions you have to learn that.

    The second reason men don’t approach is because gender roles have changed and they don’t know how to act. Men tell me stories of holding doors open for women and getting yelled at, but those same women want him to pay for Every date and buy her a ring. Men are justifiably very confused about what women want and are afraid of offending us.

    Third reason is sex is easy. This is going to make a lot of women mad but back in the day women did not give it up so easily. I am all for equality but if a guy can turn on his Phone and get sex from many women in a matter of minutes it looses its luster. It used to be that only the bad girls had sex on the third date now it’s the norm. Why would a man bother courting or dating when he has that option?

    Fourth gender roles have changed what women seek in a partner. Before sex was focused on the man. It was his job to convince her to do it and that made many men feel secure. Now you have women with just as high or higher drives that feel free to express it. Women also don’t need a provider. They want a man who understands them emotionally an equal partner. Most men were never taught how to be that, so they try to be the provider and the woman says I want more.

    With regards to porn men are lazy sorry guys. Porn is easier, it does not talk back, have opinions etc. it’s easier. And they don’t releaize they are neutering themselves for real relationships. And the decreased testosterone I think is due to the hormones in the food supply it’s happening with girls too.
     
  3. Mankrik

    Mankrik Fapstronaut

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    I'm a young person who has experienced this a lot. I do not think my mindset is indicative of most people my age but I don't approach women that often? Why? I'm too picky. And I'm not just talking about looks. I have completed a successful reboot of 200+ days and do not objectify women any more. I'm not looking to hookup, I'm looking for something serious and while also being young, attractive, wealthy, and educated it seems like I would be successful with girls. However my main issue is that I'm trying to take things slow and make a connection with a smart attractive independent woman. I just haven't found many of those. Not even while going to university.

    I am not afraid to talk to girls. It's not about them liking me, it's about me liking them. I don't want to sound uptight or pretentious, I just want something serious with someone I can love outside of a realm that is merely sexual. I'm dating a girl right now that I actively pursued in person but who rejected me. We met again via tinder and established a lot of commonalities via text. She agreed to go out with me and it went great, but I'm not really sure where I stand.

    Anyways, im looking for my soulmate and it has been pretty damn fruitless in the world of today. I have met my dream girl, but it was through tinder which I don't really like (I used it because I knew she was on there ;)) However I'm not entirely sure if she's as crazy about me as I am about her. I feel so far removed from everyone my age and just want to find love and companionship. I think that's what everyone wants they just haven't realized it. I hope things work out with this girl and her desired relationship matches mine. If not, I'll keep looking and try to do a better job of getting to know girls before I count them out.

    Just one more quick note here. Dating is stressful and intimidating when it's with someone you really like. Its hard to be a woman in this world but I feel like my honest sincere intentions are kind of lost on girls. I don't know. I'm really inexperienced.
     
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  4. I was born in the wrong era. And your right we have a generation of people unsure of how to interact to succesfully create a relationship. What is the role of a man in todays society? Or a women? What about in a relationship. Do i hold the door? These arent questions i actually have for myself, but i can understand why some guys are finding it exceedngly difficult. Throw in that we seem to think loud events with alcohol are a good place to try and score (it is for some).
     
  5. AtomicTango

    AtomicTango Fapstronaut

    I'm 21 and have pondered this myself, I personally have very little drive or desire in that area and I have always been at a loss as to why that is. It isn't low testosterone, I had tests done only a few months back and I was fine and healthy in all areas, so honestly I have no idea. Its certainly frustrating as I do feel like there is something "wrong" with me when objectively there isn't, its in my head, but how do you fix a problem when you dont know what the problem even is?
     
  6. Porn Free Wanderer

    Porn Free Wanderer Fapstronaut

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    I pretty much agree with most of this, but with a few things to add. I'm 41, but I spend the 90s as a beta male. I was bullied at school and too small to fight back. I was the sort of guy that even if a girl did like me, she'd never own up to it because she'd rather look cool to her friends. Consequently, I look at a lot of the things in the modern dating world with a detached amusement, having long since given up on dating.

    I think the key word here is 'incentives'. Any economist will tell you that people respond to incentives. Pretty much any human being on planet Earth can be manipulated with the right incentives. Frankly, if I look at modern dating from the perspective of the archetypal beta male, I don't see too many incentives that would make me partake in modern dating if I were in my 20s. Let's look at a few of the disincentives.

    1. Cost. A night out isn't cheap. First you have to pay the cost of getting into a club (many of them have cover charges), then you have to pay for over-priced drinks. Let's not forget that if you're the man, you're expected to buy a woman drinks with no guarantee that she's going to want to spend time with you once you stop paying. This is actually a form of prostitution (since most escorts charge by the hour), but without the option of negotiating up front. It's simply cheaper to use Tinder, or just stay home and PMO. If it were me, the only time I'd bother going out would be if there was a band that I particularly wanted to see, and then I'd be concentrating on enjoying the show rather than trying to pick up.

    2. The Environment. A lot of these places are horrible places to actually meet someone. Sure, the girls often 'dress to impress', with all the background noise and the 'security staff' who are usually guys considered to mentally unstable for the Police force, they're just not places you want to spend a lot of time. Having a conversation over the background noise is nearly impossible anyway. Why would you bother?

    3. Gender roles. This is a big one. I believe (at least here in Australia) that there is currently a war on beta males. Today if a man is so much as accused of sexual assault or any kind of sexual crime, he is basically guilty until proven innocent -- even if the accusation surfaces YEARS later (as was seen with a Rugby League footballer here some years ago). If you sleep with a woman who was drunk at the time and she later regrets it, the mere fact that she was drunk is enough for you to be guilty of rape in the eyes of the law. Most of the people you meet at bars and clubs are probably going to be drunk or under the influence of some other drug(s).

    And that's before we touch on the point that @ GG2002 raised with regard to males not knowing how to act. It seems the alpha types can still act as they always did and get away with it, because any anger at their actions will be directed at the beta types anyway, who have to contend with more and more rules governing their behaviour. Then there's the fact that a lot of younger men grew up without fathers and missed out on some life lessons (that happened to me as well). Or they had parents who simply couldn't be bothered and sat them in front of a TV or a computer. More life lessons not learned.

    4. Society's 'rules'. Why do so many people today believe that bars and clubs are the only socially acceptable way to meet people? There was a time when you could meet people at the Supermarket, at the bus stop and so on. Today so many people are walking around with their guard up, staring into their phones and whatever else.

    5. Easy access to substitutes. And here we have the final piece of the puzzle. If you don't want to deal with any of the above factors, you don't have to anymore. Hook up sites like Tinder or craigslist exist. And if even they're too much trouble, there's more porn available (usually for free) than ever before. There are also escorts or Asian massage parlours. Some men even cross the divide and indulge in casual hookups with other males in adult book stores. All of these things are accessed more easily than dating. Again ask any economist how cheap substitutes will affect the demand for any product you can think of.

    Put these factors together, and you have the perfect recipe for a lot of men simply losing interest in dating. In my case, I'm on this site to quit porn and escorts, but I'm not doing that in the hope of meeting a life partner or getting a date. I believe that ship has already sailed (if it ever ventured into the port to begin with). I'm now paying more attention to the other 98% of life, and it doesn't surprise me at all that a lot of other men seem to be doing the same.
     
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  7. elevate

    elevate Fapstronaut

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    We can compare the good old days with the present all we want, but this is how it is now. This doesn't match how it's supposed to be for a lot of people, but this is how it is.

    A lot of children grew up without the proper parenting and role models, but there's also a lot more communication and resources on the internet in terms of exchanging knowledge.

    It might be a lot more confusing or difficult to navigate dating these days, but it also rewards those willing to gain the necessary experience. Wanting to develop your reality... the reality that is messy, awkward, unideal, painful, and difficult... over all the instant gratification escapism that the modern world has to offer... is a skill that a lot of people won't have. The bigger the barrier... the bigger the reward. Things like social intelligence and dealing with rejection are skills you have to work for. Not a lot of people do that these days.

    Don't dwell on how it's supposed to be. Accept that this is how it is and you open yourself up to many opportunities.

    Yeah, it might be a big mess, but it can also be a time of experimenting and exploration. Life is a playground and you can play with the other kids if you choose to.

    It's not about opening doors or not opening doors for someone... it's about being the person you want to be and giving other people the option of whether or not that resonates with them. I open doors because I want to. Not because I need something from them.
     
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  8. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    It’s not too late it’s never too late! I understand being tired of dating, giving up I’ve been there. But what I actually see holding you back is fear. Fear of being hurt, fear of being rejected, even fear of being accused of rape. But you have to take risks to find love. Yes that often involves a ton of heartbreak. But if you keep at it it will pay off. The other option is to be safe and not even try.

    Since the initial motivation for men seeking a partner is sex I can see how you might think pmo is easier. Men look for sex and find love, women look for love and find sex. But a relationship is so much more than sex or what pmo or escorts can give you. But if you have never experienced love you likely don’t know that. If you stop pmo and escorts then maybe your desire will turn to women and allow you to get past the fears. For now you have what you think is a reasonable alternative pmo. So fear says keep doing the pmo. When you have the out of pmoing you will choose it it’s easy and you will never get to the point of love.

    You know what women make the best partners for beta men? Alpha women. Take me and most of my friends. We work Long hours, we are assertive, independent etc. we need a more laid back man . When we date alpha men all we do is butt heads. It works. I’m in the US I don’t know much about Australia but I did visit Perth last year it was beautiful. I suspect it’s similar. Beta men are more in demand now with so many alpha women. When you say you were made fun of in school that was a different time and place. I’m your age and yes it was the same for beta guys in school but it’s not now.

    I think you need to gain confidence in who you are. I don’t think being Beta is not your issue, low self esteem is. You can gain it by being around women even in a non dating way. No not bars or clubs we are both too old for that. Volunteer somewhere. Go to singles events. Go online and set up a few dates so you can get comfortable with it.
     
  9. Abird

    Abird Fapstronaut

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    There is an upcomming problem: mobile phone / smartphone. Look at people and see how bussy they are with smartphone. We don't practise how to flirt, we don't know how to make eye contact, we don't know body language because we don't learn it.

    Another problem is that girls are most of time in a group and it's very hard to flirt with 1 girl if her friends are around. You have to talk to a whole group.
    Beside that there is always fear of rejection and approach anxiety. Girls also talk around you back with some guys don't like. Today in public transport i heard : "OMG [guy's name] kissed with [girl's name] and [girl's name] it was the worst kiss ever. She just reject them after" other girl said "haha he is a bad kisser [girl 3's name] has to know!"

    Those girls might not be mature, but if you kiss a girl/guy is it so hard to keep it for yourself? I mean you can say i kissed [insert name]. But you shouldn't say if it was a good or bad kiss as thats between you both. This is the reason some guys don't approach girls at clubs because all girls in the group will know if you messed up.

    As last point: i don't see why girls can approach boys. We live in an society where girls are getting same rights as boy (not everywhere)
     
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  10. It's called molly.

    As for your theory I would say things have changed. The men who lived in the 60's were at the start of the "sexual revolution". Society has run this "revolution" into the ground and now you are seeing the aftermath of what happens to society when men let go of self-restraint and focus on self-indulgence. IMO, it was a death blow to masculinity which is why we see so many YouTube channels and sites dedicated to taking back manhood. The problem we face now though is that none of these sites like MGTOW or Alpha/Beta bs want to acknowledge that what restores manhood his virtuous living, but since no one is living for an ideal that is greater than themselves the word virtue and how it's lived is a foreign concept to men.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2018
  11. Porn Free Wanderer

    Porn Free Wanderer Fapstronaut

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    I should probably clarify something from my previous post. When I referred to myself as a "beta" male, it was a reference to how I was perceived by those around me (hence the fact that girls wouldn't talk to me in high school). I believe most people have a mix of "alpha" and "beta" qualities, but labelling people as "alpha" or "beta" is just an easy way to label people without needing to look at the bigger picture.

    The biggest problem I have with independent women is that I never seem to meet any. I've spent time on dating websites (before I realised they were scams filled with fake profiles). I've even looked at singles ads in newspapers back when that was a thing. I've joined hiking groups and so on. One of the things that continually comes up is that pretty much all of the women I've met there is that they all want to stop down their lifestyle and have children. Well I've known since I was eight years old that I didn't want to have children simply because I had other things that I wanted to do (like traveling and so on), and the cost involved. I would love nothing more than to meet an independent woman with her own life who would give me the space to focus on my own interests (those not related to PMO), but I'm also realistic. Instead I just focus on doing what I want to do and enjoying my life as much as I can.

    Then I see a thread like this come up (and a lot of other writing on the Internet that says the same thing) and I think "Wow, it's even harder for men of this age group. I get why they feel that way". Unfortunately, society's response every time one of these guys tries to articulate why they feel like this is to just label them as "beta" males and laugh at the "ugly man who can't get laid" rather than listen to what they're saying. Then when the laughter dies down, they're wondering why so many men have moved on with their lives, and the cycle repeats itself all over again.
     
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  12. Mankrik

    Mankrik Fapstronaut

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    I'm sure it differs for different age groups, but even still the dilemma you describe seems quite familiar. Personally, I see myself having children one day and that being my primary life focus. However I have an independent personality and am seeking a woman who is independent and has her own life/interests so that we can give each other space but also support when its needed. I have flexible standards but seldom meet people that exhibit traits like the one's you describe. But they definitely exist and its just a matter of finding them. I wish I could give advice on how to do that but that's something i'm still figuring out myself.
     
  13. Gotham Outlaw

    Gotham Outlaw Fapstronaut

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    I know access to hookup sites and porn has reduced interest in finding a woman. Before I quit fapping I had no interest in finding a woman because the internet could get me off. While I now want to find a woman I'm also very selective with the kind of people I spend time with. I'd like to find a fun, intellectual type of girl, but they're not in abundance. I think that, generally speaking, both men and women have certain issues that have made dating much less popular than it once was.
     
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  14. Mike Bonanno

    Mike Bonanno Fapstronaut

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    I want to thank everybody in this topic.

    Reading your posts made me realize that I have a serious baby fever. And in my case its a good thing :)
    Also @JSeattle ’s original post opened my eyes and gave me confidence by making me realize that I have much less competition approaching girls than I’ve thougth.

    So thank you all...


    - Mike
     
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  15. GeneralismoKilgore

    GeneralismoKilgore Fapstronaut

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    So the way that I see it, we have come to an absolute cross roads in terms of where our future and the future of humanity lies. What I mean by this is that it will only be a matter of time before the introduction of the artificial womb in itself will make one of the genders obsolete in terms of being the only with child bearing capability. We've already seen articles in news about rabid feminists and their absolute fear of the future reality of potential sex dolls, and the idea that men will not need women for reproduction will cause a lopside in the species. That is all futurism of course, but it holds true for the current moment that the majority of men when asked what they want will vary in looks and tastes, but essentially I believe boil down to the same essential virtues regardless of language, race, or ethnicity.

    Men want a woman who is attractive, will take care of herself and your children, and take care of you. Someone who is interested in sharing and building a relationship, and someone who is willing to put in just as much if not more than they get out of it.

    Women want a man who will provide for them and their children, care for them, and give them attention and affection that is not afforded to anyone else.

    That is our biological imperatives, and no matter of bullshit opinion pieces or Marxist studies will change an evolutionary fact. Now as far as the world views of radical feminists and the MGTOW's they are both polar opposites and caused by a general warp in the positioning of our societies.

    The majors changes that came to set us on the standards of what would develop into current western societal norms follows as thus.

    1) Women gain the franchise and come into the work place. This happened partly during world war one, and finally full blown in world war two, when tons of young working age women were recruited into roles traditionally held for men. After the war a lot of women quit the work to settle down and have families, but it had shattered the honored tradition amongst the middle classes that women shouldn't need to work, and then the thinking changed to one of a career approach mentality where women joined the work force, and academia in larger numbers, meant that women who were able to support themselves financially by their own work weren't required to find a suitable husband if they didn't want to. Most did as it was a social norm, and their combined incomes led to a huge median boom in middle class wealth and suburban development in the US. This as a turn of events in the modern era sufficiently lowered wages enough with the education and housing booms in the 1950 - 60s to create the future paradox of the modern middle class two income two working parents families.
    I must say that the working classes are exempt from most of this, as in situations of grinding poverty women always worked, but never had access to the paying jobs that men had access to. The reality remains that they would still need to contribute in some small part to the upkeep of the family.
    There situation improved through the advancement of the idea of social welfare programs, which I will touch upon later.

    TL;DR Middle class women joining the work force during the boomer era set up a large part of the stagnation that was to follow in the 70s - current year.

    2) The advent of the contraceptive pill. This one is the biggest time bomb effecting all society throughout. It led to the period of free love, but effectively what it boils down to is a situation where by most modern women spend the greater majority of their adult reproductive life on birth control.
    This is turn prevents life's little unwanteds from happening, and not that that didn't happen before, but the usual approach was that a marriage would take place and usually if it was a good match more children would follow.
    People have a biological imperative to fuck, and societal norms were put into place, such as courtship and dating for women to be able to weed out less favorable suitors for more favorable, and so on as so forth.
    A lot of value was placed on dating or courtship, in some cases families would get involved in the forms of matchmaking, and early Hollywood is resplendent with films based on this societal norm.
    A woman in this case would not give sex away to a man as easily as today, because there was always the consequence of pregnancy, and if the man was not willing to marry her then they would have to deal with the societal shame of being an unwed mother.
    This pariah position in society had meaning because it was a greater reflection not just on the woman, but her family in having not given her the adequate education in being able to make the right choice in suitors. Thus it would shame the family or community and not just the individual in that regard.
    The development of birth control threw that out of the window, people were able to indulge in their sexual impulses more than ever before and it somehow started to become a cultural norm in the 80s in our society that your partner would not be a virgin when you got married, this carried through to the hook up cultures that pervaded the 90s and now, and we have a population of women who due to chemical manipulation are able to put off having children indefinitely and therefore put off settling down almost indefinitely. This coupled with economic factors has seen a decrease in population birth rates, as most women now aren't having their first child until they are in their mid 30's, which effectively means they sacrifice their most fertile years in terms of biology pursuing education and career.

    TL;DR Women are on birth control, they are not having babies, and are not thereby creating families. Men are just along for the ride it seems, and as women aren't having kids until 35, its shortening the biological window.

    3) This effects both men and women, but men seem to be more worse off in terms of this. We have amongst our current culture a period of ease that has never been experienced by the majority of western humanity before this time. We have very stable and safe systems in place, and a man can get along a lot with very little input into their life. The hierarchy of needs is well and truly met. I don't want to sound like a back in my day sort of speech, but in your grandfathers generation life was still relatively tough. It was better than any period before that had ever reached, but the fact is that their generation had to deal with an excessively brutal world war that was the death knell for the old Western European systems of governance that shifted and evolved since the fall of Rome, but never been completely usurped.
    They had enemies in the world, real tangible ideological enemies to the systems of which they loved, and had fought hard to preserve. They lived in a world were education was not a given, and the world still had a colonial element of opportunity and adventure. Now a lot of that is gone, and for your average man that has been brought up in an entirely comfortable and entitled lifestyle, the idea of the actual work and effort that had made these societies and men is deplorable. Instead you have generations of nu-males raised on a steady diet of entertainment and pornography, and the internet has only made this worse. The majority of men now fall into the so called Chad or Beta categories and its laughable because all men have the opportunity to be a chad or chad like if they choose to. Instead you have a generation of men who have lost the franchise so to speak, they are angry and they want something tangible to add meaning to their lives, but because there is no clear path in place, and baying enemies on all sides they slink back to the darker corners of the internet. Women are no better, the cute girl becomes the slutty woman or the angry feminist and allows themselves to be warped into someone who reaches their mid 30's and has alienated any of the actual good men around them, and then wonders why there is no good men left in the world.

    TL;DR Men have lost the art of Manliness, women have lost the art of femininity. Neither side can mentally come to terms with this, and it leads to arrested development on both sides.

    4) We're all guilty of this. What your doing right now is a form of distraction. We all do it. It feels good to be entertained. We go on social media and post with our friends. We go on our favorite websites and shit post or read new things. We game online or with a small circle of friends on multiplayer. We can binge TV for hours, Youtube for hours, and we do. And so there you have it. The impetus of social distractions around us, mean that we do not have time for each other.
    The way potential relationships grow is through interactions, real life interactions, it is the reason that we invented social holidays, festivals, games, and events, these were the basic forms of courtship that allowed for a person to develop and experience and preference for a potential mate.
    It also led to a lot of social bonding as men and women would do different events with different groups of friends, and whether you are agnostic or atheistic, the church as a social order provided a great opportunity for communities to experience social cohesion. The second impetus would be boredom.
    Now just think for a moment if you lived in a town in the 40's where you could justifiably reach your local acquaintances through walking distance, or had a mutual meeting place where most people would go to socialize, and no one in the town had a telephone or TV.
    Most people would be going out in the evenings, or arrange some form of social meet up impromptu or planned and because there would be the potentiality of fun, people would normally tag along.
    Maybe you would meet someone regularly at one of these events, they live nearby you and you, begin to like them, they like you too and you arrange to meet them again in person on a regular basis, congratulations your now dating.
    Fast forward to today, and you could go out, but there are two conflicting parties and you don't really know a lot of people any way, what if your social anxiety starts to act up, why go out anyways when you could stay at home in the warm and play xbox, or binge that new tv series you really like. You get bored and turn on some porn till 2am, masturbate, oh well, its too late to go out now. Better luck next time.

    TL;DR We have an over abundance of competing distracting technologies which have caused a huge break down in the drives that would lead to regular social interactions and potential courtships in the past.

    Feel free to disagree with me, I'm sure there will be a few that will but at the end of the day but there is a sickness in our society whether we want to admit it or not, and pornography is only a small part of it. The worst part is that it is something that we have created and I honestly think its small fringe movements like this community that will be the start of a stabilization and return of normality in our society.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  16. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I am female but by no means a “radical feminist “ although I’m not quite sure what you mean by that. In any event being a feminist means that women want to be equal. We are not asking for anymore than men have, just the same thing. Feminism is the idea that if a woman wants to stay home and raise a family she has that choice, but it’s not her only choice. She also has the choice to advance her education and not have kids. Or have kids and with the help of her partner work and raise the kids. Women today make all of these choices.

    I agree with you as far as what you stated that men want in a woman and that has not changed. But what women want has. I for example am not seeking a provider for me or my children, I am also not looking for someone to take care of me. That is not a biological need, it was a need created by a patriarchal society where men were the only ones with access to and the ability to earn an income. Of course women looked for a husband to provide, it was their only choice. But now since most of us more than provide for ourselves, the kids and often their husbands we seek so much more. We want a man that’s attractive, takes care of himself and the children, is kind to her, takes care of her, someone who is interested in sharing and building a relationship and someone who gives as much to the relationship as she gets. So basically women want from men exactly what men want from women.

    Women have changed, but men are still stuck in their old pattern. They felt confident when their sole duty was to provide they are less confident in giving to the woman what they are asking for from the woman. The pill has allowed women to move ahead in the workplace and gasp enjoy sex. Men are intimated by women who enjoy sex it makes them insecure. And it is the normal way of things that the race or gender that had the better deal in the old ways is slower to change to the new ways, and so In this case it’s understandable that men are reluctant to change. I do think as the generations pass men are adapting. Many in their 20s have no problem staying at home with kids and don’t need to be the primary breadwinner.

    The reality here is that women are moving ahead and the men can either choose to stay behind or come along with us. If they prefer having sex with dolls and using artificial wombs then they can go for it. Women would not want to date a man like that and certainly would not want to marry him. Women have been having babies without partners for years, via sperm banks so that’s nothing new.

    I don’t think the end of society is near. I think we are in a period of change where things are not all settled yet. Eventually men will come along or they will be alone which is also okay. The way the economy is going men are going to be hard pressed to not find a woman that out earn them. We as the mothers and fathers of today need to teach our sons how to survive in this new era. But things will never go back to the way they were. No matter who thinks they should or should not, the times are changing.
     
  17. Gotham Outlaw

    Gotham Outlaw Fapstronaut

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    There's a lot of great stuff in this post. The scary thing is that sex robots already exist. They were supposed to come out at the end of last year, but they got pushed out to the end of this month. It's taking people's fantasies off the screen and into their beds. I'm hoping that something goes wrong early on. Something big enough to kill any potential this has to stay around.
     
  18. GeneralismoKilgore

    GeneralismoKilgore Fapstronaut

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    What I mean when I say radical feminist is the pervasiveness of third wave feminism currently in western societies. Let me state that I do not, and I believe the great majority of men also do not have a problem with egalitarianism, and historically the struggles of the 1st wave feminists is admirable, as they managed to achieve what the definition of the movement meant, equal rights in the eyes of the law. I think you'll find the majority of men however take exception to the 3rd wave feminist movement, which without any actual battles to fight for since women have won their equality has become more of a supremacist movement, again if you view yourself as superior to any group of particular people then you are not for equality. And while that might not be your particular view, and I applaud that, a lot of women who are strident feminists however do view men as inferiors in some way or form instead of just different.

    I personally have no problem with a woman who is independent is able to manager her own life and career, and I've never met a single man who wasn't positive about a woman's open attitude towards sex. Its not a question about have things changed and can they be reversed, I don't think they can without a major reset event, but the fact remains that this independence and failure to settle down on both ends is hurting our population growth and when tied in with globalist business interests and the burden of the welfare apparatus of the state, we cannot without some sacrifice reduce our population size, and maintain the current levels of the economy and growth.

    As for women out competing men in the market place, from my view this isn't going to last forever either because the spectre that is looming is the introduction of an active and working artificial intelligence systems will see the majority of not just low skill production jobs disappear, but a great majority of the middle class jobs as well. The system can only support so much unemployment before it starts to have major issues.
     
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  19. GeneralismoKilgore

    GeneralismoKilgore Fapstronaut

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    The biggest danger in terms of the male female divide isn't going to be sex dolls or artificial wombs, I think those will follow naturally as a part of the bifurcation of the the genders where we really do split off in terms of competition. When you remove the power a woman has in terms of being a necessary part of reproduction then you will have some traditional couples based on meritocracy, and there will be fringe groups out there, but I can honestly see the majority of people using the idea of reproduction as a means of social isolation.
    Women will reproduce women. Men will reproduce men. Neither will co-mingle in the classical sense, as they have no reason to. A woman has her perfect 10 out of 10 male.
    The man also has the same female counterpart. Why would they even bother reacting or interacting with each other. It doesn't even need to be robots, there will come a time once the technology has caught up that people will be using virtual reality as another means of ersatz interaction, and essentially people will be checking out of their daily lives to go on dates with their perfect virtual bf or gf.
    If you don't believe it can happen, look at the male to female population in Japan, it is at least 30 years ahead of us in terms of population cause and effect and it works out to this. The younger and some older women don't date or marry men because their working life and career has super ceded having families. The younger generation of men who rejected the salaryman positions held by their fathers, basically became a peter pan generation of lost boys, and instead of interacting with the women around them, basically adapted ersatz methods of social interaction which is why the proliferation of hentai games and waifu culture came into being. Some Japanese actually do treat their electronic girlfriends as the real life thing.
    The only thing the Japanese are doing right is not trying to prop up their bloated social security system and government spending by mass importation of migrants in the hopes it will auto-correct. Instead they are allowing the numbers to die off, the boomers to die off, and preparing for the time period when the tax proceeds dip severely as a result.
     
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  20. GG2002

    GG2002 Fapstronaut

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    I do not agree in any movement that argues the superiority of one gender over another or one race over another, I believe in equality. There are some women who are so angry about the past, that you are correct they are not willing to move forward with equality and want to punish the men for their past behavior. That being said those women are few and far between within the movement, as are most radicals within in a movement. YOu always have some that go to the extremes but it does not define the movement entirely.

    I have to disagree with you that there is nothing left to fight for, we still do not have equality, far from it. Sexual harassment of women in the workplace is normal and expected. Almost every woman I know has personally experienced it on a regular basis. I know that many men brush this off and say women are making it up, or it’s no big deal, and these are good men, who just cannot fathom that other men would be so horrible. Let me assure you that they are. I could write an entire book about the experiences i have had in my 16 years of practicing law. It is everything from blatant discrimination “we can’t let women work on those files, they are too challenging,” or “as a woman you need to work harder to be respected, please speak louder in court and yell more,”. Or the opposite “when you speak loudly and act too agressive male judges perceive you as bitchy be nicer.” While men are encouraged to be aggressive, in an industry clearly requires it, women are seen negatively for doing the exact same thing. When I was up for partner I was told that my work product was excellent I was at the top but that I needed to “smile more” when I saw the partners all white men over 50. None of the men before me were told that? Finally the sexual harassment aspect. Just to name a few I was asking to sit on bosses and coworkers laps, I had bosses slip alchohol in my soda at happy hours to “loosen me up,” worked at companies that took clients to strip clubs, asked to dress up as a french maid for a client event, asked to lyft my shirt up, grinded on by partners. I would say that for the first 10 years I received a minimum of 1 overtly sexual comment a day and this did not just come from within my jobs, but from Judges, and other lawyers, as well as clients. But the reason they do it, for the most part is to make women feel like they don’t belong. Its an attempt to assert power. Remind us that we are inferior or make us uncomfortable enough to leave.

    There is also a fairly signicant pay gap. And while I agree that often the studies are not comparing apples to apples on this issue. Meaning men tend to work longer hours while women take on more child care, or women take time off to have kids, so it would be understandable that the men m are more, if you eliminate these factors particularly with high level professionals, it’s still there. I have no children, and am not married. I bill more or the same as male lawyers do, and still am not paid the same. Women also still are not in upper management and that’s not just in firms, but everywhere. A big reason is because the old boys club is still in place and they promote people they feel comfortable with, people like them. Another reason is the fault of women, who fail to promote other women when they do get in power, but by far one of the biggest reasons is that women don’t accept promotions because they don’t have the support from their husbands in child care and the home. Yet another place with huge inequality is in the home. A 2017 study revealed that women still do more work in the home, no matter how many hours the work outside of the home. Make no mistake men do more than they did in the past, say the 80s but they do nowhere close to what women do. But men still see their job as to go to work, and come home and relax. If a kid is sick, the woman leaves her job, not the man. This is true even when the woman is a doctor working 70 hours a week, and the man works a standard 40 hour week making a lot less money. It almost feels like men are saying to women “hey you can work out of the home now, but you still have to do all the same things you would as if you were my stay at home wife.” This last factor is one of the largest reasons for the gender pay gap, men need to step up. Not all me are like this to be clear, but the majority of men are.

    Sometimes men and women for that matter don’t realize how gender biased they are. It is so deeply ingrained in them. On the surface men think they are progressive and good with equality but when equality comes into play in real life, they resort back to their old ways. I was engaged once and the man really wanted children. I told him I was open to children, but that he would have to be the primary parent in the relationshp as I knew that my career would not allow me to, and it would be selfish of me to have a child with no time. He agreed, even said he would stay at home, as my salary could support us. But when the time came to actually have kids, he totally changed his tune, and expected me to quit my job, which made NO financial sense. Women who are married in the workforce tend to get penalized by upper management, because they are not promoted on the assumption that they will have kids an drop out of the workforce. A woman having a child causes a significant decrease in her overall lifetime earnings, but causes that same increase in the man’s earnings. Men who get married are seen are more stable than single men. This is a large factor why women do not want to have children. Most career women would love to have kids, but in order to do so they require from their spouses a minimum of 50% of the child rearing, and the majority of men won’t do that. We see our female colleagues killing themselves to do it all while their husbands sit by and watch. Women want none of that. So if the population is to increase (and I don’t agree we have an underpopulation problem plenty of people having babies)then men need to step up and do their share. It is more common now to have men wanting kids an d women not and this is why. The men have to do their part.

    I don’t see women and men in the workplace as competing. You say women are outcompeting men, but its not a battle. I know many men see it that way, hence the reason for sexual harassment to try to even the score and get women out, but that’s not what is going on. Women are just working harder. That’s right I said it. The reason being that they always had to work harder to get the same or less than men did, and so we are used to it. If I did not graduate in the top 10% of my class, I would be unlikely to get the same job as a white man who graduated in the bottom 10%. Schooling, graduate and collegiate has 60% women and 40% men. I think men need to step up their game if they see women as a competion. My Mom always says gone are the days where a white man with no college degree could ease into a Union job simply because he was a white man. I get it I would not be happy either if in the past I had to do minimal work and now I had to do so much more.

    Bottom line is that there still is not true equality and it is going to take a long time before there is. And as you touched on, things are not going to go back. We are not going to wake up 10 years in the 1950s where women were stay at home Moms and men worked. So we all have to learn to adjust bottom line.
     
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