Men are not as driven towards getting a woman as they were in the 60's-90's? Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Dating during a Reboot' started by JSeattle, Jan 4, 2018.

  1. GeneralismoKilgore

    GeneralismoKilgore Fapstronaut

    Thanks for the reply but you seem to be operating under the misconception that I am not aware of the problems facing women in our current societal structure or the immense struggle that women do face in terms of work place recognition. I'm also aware of the problems currently facing men in the system as well, and if its any consolation I think that the MGTOW movement is just as ridiculous in its extremity.
    However that is not the point of my reply, it was to address what I perceive as the issues that have led to the current condition of western society, and in terms of the address of futurism, it is not written in stone it is merely a current predication of where things seem to be headed, as I said without a hard reset.

    Feminism to many women can mean many different things but the majority of the issues that you have written about are based on personal experiences in a work place that is synonymous with being an ego fueled and driven industry. Lots of practitioners of law register on the sociopathy spectrum just as engineers and sciences tend to be more lenient towards people on the autistic spectrum, and the behavior of the people involved can be accused as part of patriarchy but as you said yourself women in high positions prop up the system as well. The systems are driven by corporatism and power dynamics and where there is classically positions for abuse to be made, it will be made regardless of gender. Women in a male dominated industry tend to be more focused on as they are in the minority. Just as men are in female dominated industry. This is what gets passed off as in good fun, or banter, or a lapse in judgement and it is covered up, not because of the propping up of gender in-equality but rather to support the corporate apparatus.

    My work is predominantly now in HR in a company that is majority female employed, in a female led industry. I work directly under three different female managers, and in that time have also been the subject of sexual innuendos, unwanted advances, and in some cases outright racism, and this is from the HR department, the department that is supposed to be the open forum to highlight problems like this.
    I've seen men get their applications turned down, because they were "Men." I've seen managers from my own and other departments use promotion as a tool for sexual favors. I've heard inappropriate comments, and one of the managers above me who is new to the position is an open black supremacist and so won't hire any white people male or female over non-whites unless there is an overwhelming reason in terms of experience or education to hire them. This is unacceptable because hiring process should be the most qualified candidate for the job regardless of gender or ethnicity.

    It all gets unfairly brushed under the table, because the reputation and the function of the company takes precedence over everything else including personal feelings. It's not fair, but its the system that exist, and until the management is willing to actually tackle it from the inside and not pay lip service to media outlets and government, then it will continue as it is a workplace culture.

    In regards to the gender pay gap, I'm am for equality, I do not see the reason why the adjustment should be made that women and men have a pay disparity just as I don't see how the dynamic between maternal and paternal leave should be so lopsided, it should be equal for both, but again this would require a complete overhaul of the corporate structure and a guarantee that the 40 week is the 40 hour week, and women along with men should be allowed and understandably supporting in wanting to start a family.
    Here again its more of a structural and institutional issue than it is a gender driven issue, as you said yourself the representation of women in specific sectors of the economy is under represented or over represented depending on the sector in question.

    The adage of the day seems to be the call to get more women into specific industries, by women who aren't involved in those actual specific industries, and in some cases it just seems to be the same old talking points that are brought up with the expectation that some form of Deus Ex Machina will come and instantaneously fix things. The simple fact that if change is going to happen it has to happen by women like yourself joining an industry and changing it, rather than external pressures.

    As for the situation with your fiance it is unfortunate, but it is tied into personal experience and not every man or woman would react the same in that situation. You need to understand from a psychological point of view, that the man you were engaged to viewed his work as just as much a part of the value of his own persona, as you view yours. The status and identity that we derive from the society around is is tied to our biological gender biases, and he was not able to overcome the expectation that you would quit your work to become a primary caregiver in your future family, regardless of the monetary loss. Again its unfortunate that you weren't able to work things out amicably and the relationship ended as neither of you were willing to make the necessary perceived sacrifices. Things might have turned out differently with a different man, or a different situation, or if the man had perceived a greater value in terms of self worth in being a stay at home Dad than working, but that is all speculation.

    As for women doing more work in the domestic setting I can't confirm or deny this. In my own personal experience having lived with partners in the past I've always approached it as an equal share of home equity. This was reinforced by my own personal experience growing up, my mother kept the house in order and would cook occasionally and clean and mend things and worked part time. My father worked in engineering as a consultant and farmed and gardened and would cook occasionally, and both would help each other in their tasks when they could. Any time either of them wanted to try and do something the other was usually supportive. It wasn't perfect distribution of labor but I never viewed one as inferior or superior to the other as they both worked hard at what they did.

    Men shouldn't be able to just walk into a union job and get a pay check. I agree, I think the union systems have outlived their usefulness anyways, (different story :p) and I don't think any group of people should ever have a franchise just because. I've always viewed life through the competitive lens of equal opportunity, I want the people who will work the hardest at whatever they try to do, because that in the end results in the most progress and I've often found the majority of people who are willing to tactfully compete are often welcomed in regardless of background, ultimately the value you add to society in general is a far better metric for success, and the majority of people love success regardless of gender or ethnicity. Sure you will always get in group preferences, but the fact remains that if it was a rigid rather than fluid aspect there would be absolutely no forms of social or cross cultural exchange. But I suppose that's a glass half full argument, I try to view the world in a positive light.
  2. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

    @GG2002 Everything you have stated is very true, and most of what you've referenced I've recently had my psych teachers bring those examples up, especially in my social psych class. Also, I am not sure I've stated it before, but it's really cool you're a lawyer, mad respect (I at one time thought about it, but life happened and that wasn't going to be an option for me). Also, sorry about that situation with your guy where he flipped on you at the last minute when wanting kids and expected you to stay home, that's just wrong.

    And to the point of women doing more housework, yes there are studies that have stated it, again, social psych class.

    My husband and I just had a baby. I can say that our situation is different than the norm. we are 24 and 23, and he is just getting into his career field while finishing school, I'm at home with the kid, doing online classes and working an online job. I do lots of the housework, I ask for him to pitch in, and sometimes it happens, but he comes home from work and just wants to relax and sit down. He is the cook in the relationship which I am not sure if men are cooking more than women these days, but it's very nice that he does that ( I can't cook to save my life). We strive to try to be equal with the housework, but it doesn't often happen. It does feel burdensome to be expected to do it. Hence why I've always made myself known as "one of the bros" so no one treated me like a girl (because of gender stereotypes). I have a blog, work for an online mag, have school, am writing a book, yet I'm supposed to do the housework, clean up after my husband, etc. It seems unbalanced, and I know many women feel it is unbalanced and wish their husbands pitched in to make things equal. Just because jobs are offered online doesn't mean the work that someone does at home is not equal to work done in an office.

    I think there are many reasons why there have been changes, most of which have been listed already. I do think gender roles play a big part. It's true that things are shifting. Women are becoming more dominant and men, well they are peter pan lost boys. Most men have desensitized themselves with excessive video games, porn, internet, etc. to the point that they don't know how to interact with people. They also become lazy when exposed to that much tech a day (I'm talking 8-14 hrs of gaming/porn/social media). It's as if men think what they accomplish online is a real accomplishment (I'm talking teens to twenties). My husband, when we met, even before so, he played 8-12 hours of games a day. When we were together that went down dramatically, but he still had to game to accomplish some level or idk um mission. He would come to me and be proud. In my head I was thinking, "You're proud you sat at your computer in virtual reality accomplishing slaying something for X hours?" To me it was ridiculous. And when porn comes into the conversation, it's like men are content to just "have" fake women and interact with a screen. It makes them lazy daters. It makes them not try.

    Also, question, why is it that on this thread people have assumed men date for sex as if that's the end all be all? In my opinion, because of how dating has shifted, men don't need to date to get sex, they can just find some random women and do it. Sex isn't within dating and relationships anymore. I know both men and women enjoy sex, want sex, but there is no need to date/be in a relationship to get sex. Wouldn't dating these days be something to get to know someone, to be vulnerable, to be loved,etc? I think dating has shifted so dramatically because of porn, the internet and online dating, and how technology has made us all less social in real life because of fears of rejection. For me and my husband, I was looking for a serious relationship, not sex, and so was he (ironically given his pmo).

    I also think it's true that men are getting intimidated by women whether it's in the workfield or in the bedroom. I am not sure but maybe men just aren't used to women being equals, and when women assert themselves as equals that's when men get uncomfortable and will sexually harrass or put women down. I mean, can anyone answer why men would be intimidated rather than happy they would have an equal partner?

    Wouldn't men be happy the financial burden isn't on them alone, wouldn't they be happy to have a woman who is experienced in sex and desiring sex and open about that?

    I know men are very competitive with each other and I know women are competitive with each other but why are men competitive with women? Why are they threatened when a woman is an equal (or possibly when the woman makes more money or she has more sexual experience or has a higher sex drive?)

    Just throwing out some questions to think about. I really am enjoying this thread and all the opinions.

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