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Discussion in 'NoFap Technical Support and Feedback' started by soulsfan92, May 22, 2016.
that's naive, if will was all that anyone ever needed then there wouldn't be any point to rehab.
Ah, see the problem is summoning enough will. Of course will is the only thing you need, surely there is no physical barrier blocking us from a PMO-free life! The problem is we are weak when surrounded by strong temptations, and it is very difficult to want to abstain more than you want to fap in the instant where you may fail. With enough will power, I promise any of you can overcome your addictions.
This is why it is most important to get your reason for quitting straight, so that you have a clear goal to look to. Will doesn't come out of thin air.
It's true on a surface level, sure. But will alone won't last 99% of the time. It's like saying that all you need to move 500 pounds is muscle. True, but not everybody has so much muscle. So to get till that level most of us need to employ methods and strategies to develop that kind of strength. An all these things, like cold showers for example, are tools to help us get till that point. It is silly to expect that I will be bale to squat 500 pounds, I'm skinny-fat now, just as it is silly to expect that everybody has enough will to summon just like that from thin air without training first.
Agreed, but there are differences between the two.
You require actual muscle mass to lift that weight, which you must develop over a period of time. In this case, you are making a choice. Nothing is physically stopping you from saying no everytime, addiction just makes it difficult. If you are telling yourself that you are physically limited in your choices by your state of mind, you are limiting the potential of your recovery. It can easily just be an excuse to slow up the process for the reluctant.
That being said: It is still very important to employ various strategies that lighten the load. I am not saying the battle is easy, 99% of us will not successfully quit cold turkey when we try. We will have to revisit with better methods. The difference is just that we must revisit simply because we lacked the willpower to succeed the first time. All we have to do is find it somewhere. (Be it in a cold shower, or a journal, or in the rigorous dicipline of your prexsisting mind.)
That's the point. We don't always have it. It is nonexistent in the mind and brain, just like muscle cells are nonexistent in the body of the weightlifter that is trying to squat 500 pounds. He can't just "find them somewhere". He can use tools like knee wraps, momentum and leverage to "cheat" the weight up, more that he could have otherwise lifted, like we do with cold showers and stuff, but it won't be all his muscular strength.
You are presuming that we have limitless resources in the mind and the only problem is that we don't know how to access them. But it's not true, mind is very much limited. For many people there is simply nothing in there to access to. Sorry for being so pessimistic, or rather realistic, but we ARE limited by the state of our mind. And not only psychological state but also by physiological state of the brain. Some parts of our brain literally shrinks and grows depending what thoughts and actions we practice. Lateral Prefrontal cortex is one part of the brain that does this as we exercise self control. Just like muscles do grow when we exercise strength. Neural-pathways also changes and fades away, physically, as we start new or end old habits. That's what neuroplasticity is.
I guess that my experience is that if you are trying to quit one addiction the techniques can work for other potential addictions, so it may seem that posts are a shotgun approach to everything. I personally have no problem with having healthy outlets in life. To me an "addiction" is something that keeps you from facing life "head on", so if you are quitting PMO to pickup over-eating have you changed or just found something "less" harmful.
Gaming, Television, exercise or whatever can be healthy outlets and can be unhealthy distractions, you get to decide how far those things go.
There's 2 types of people, weak and strong. If your weak minded, you will fail and fail. If your strong minded you will fail and succeed.
Whats the point of defeating one addiction or negative thing in your life if you have other negative addictions or habits. Its like dusting an extremly dusty room with a broom. All your doing is moving dust from one corner to the other.
You start with NoFap or exercising and it diciplines you. You improve on one thing and move on. I think thats why there are posts about anxiety, depression, being alone, religion, because people are looking for the truth and need help.
We all have differences and come from all walks of life and the one thing all of have in common is we want to change.
How much a person want to change is up to them.
Everyone here had a thought or thoughts cross there mind that "I need to change",
"I need to do something" "This isn't the real me"
Godbless all of you
I disagree. Will is not a function of the brain that can be measured in intensity or performance, it is the amount of times you get back up after getting knocked down. It can be infinite, because it simply describes patterns we make in our decision making. Everytime you are ever presented with an opportunity to PMO, you can say no. Every single time, if you will it. By saying will is limited, you are saying that at some point in your life, you will be given two possible, plausible paths to take, and you are absolutely unable to choose one particular path because of a physical limit to your brainpower. This is ludicrous.
I believe this argument is over. I simply believe willpower is limitless and you do not. That is all.
@Child of God It's not a matter of belief or disbelief. It's a scientific fact, based on what we know today about human brain. But hey, if you choose to dismiss the scientific evidence of modern brain research then I guess that's fine by me. You're entitled to freedom of your opinion. I have nothing against that. I guess lets agree to disagree then.
In all honesty, video games were pretty much the cause of my depression, at other people's house it can be fun and bring people together, but as someone who was really in to gaming, I think it is way worse than moderate PMO (if that's even possible)
The frowning at games is for a reason and it took me two years to work out, best of luck.
That post sums it up. Awesome one mate
@Child of God and @Shugi Shugi
It's interesting to note that the idea of 'Will' is confusing. Philosophers tend to think of it as a 'faculty', and scientists tend to think of it as... well, they tend to dismiss it in favor of natural determinism. I think a helpful way to talk about 'will' is the psychological approach where 'will' equals rational desire. This puts it on a kind of level playing field with our other desires, and really reflects what's going on when we observe the battle going on within us in direct first person experience.
For the incontinent [classical psychology], rational desire is overpowered by natural/ instinctive desire. It is always there [and 'infinite'] but is weak.
For the continent, rational desire is finally in control when it has developed the strength to discipline/ restrain natural desire.... or has relatively gained in strength as natural desire weakens.
I'm not going against neuro research, I just have a different opinion of what will is. Oh well.
That pretty much outlines the dispute. Will can be treated as a state in the mind that is limited by our capacity, or it can be reflected by our rationale for series of choices we make. I believe the latter, therefore will's influence truely is infinite, however it is still very difficult for us to harness.
I think it's easier to talk of 'will' as a verb as opposed to a noun.. a thing. It's simply the psychic act of volition. So there are many 'wills'... the will to knowledge/ science [there is one for the deterministic scientists to ponder... will always precedes knowledge] , or the will to doubt, or the will to suspend belief, or the will to obliterate self-consciousness, or the will to rationally represent the world to ourselves [knowledge/ power].
"Our rationale for series of choices we make" can not be 'will' itself... will is always an activity to some end or purpose [teleology]. I think what you are referring to here is 'representation', which is more about reflective reason, which is itself based on a certain kind of willing [the will to knowledge]. And that's rationalism.
Personally, I think we have to take 'will' as absolutely central, which would make me an existentialist of sorts. I'm not anti-rationalist, just that 'will' is always central. All 'will' is desire, reason is rational desire.... rationalism is the attempt of rational desire/ reason to purge itself of desire in a reflective passionless technical and pure state [the method]. This form of reason isolates itself from passion, and creates a dichotomy between our desires [instigated by puritanism]. It is the wrong kind of reason for the addict, for the addict needs to re-combine their alternate desires [rational desire, and instinctual desire/ libido] in a unity; reason needs to merge with passion once again in order to control, harness it.
So how do we get that animal in us on our side?
The wrong kind of reason is theoretical reason. So the right kind has to be practical reason, which in the long classical tradition was known as moral philosophy. Far from a moralism, or puritanism, this tradition sought after an ordering and a harmony between the disparate elements which make up our psyche [do we still believe in the psyche today?]. It's the old humanist tradition, which fostered a classical training in various arts, and which sought a unity in our sciences. I think this striving for unity was all about maintaining a psychological unity and groundedness. How do we get the animal on our side? Think of Plato's image of the Charioteer and you get the idea [notice also the way in which language is used in the humanities; it is most often allusive... words, like our theories, are tools and instruments].
I think many people have a wrong idea about philosophy and science today. Philosophy they tend to think of as useless... they think it is just some abstract theoretical exercise, when in reality it should be the most practical thing by asking the most central and humane questions... for one's own life; what is the Good life, and how can I live it? Philosophy's primary function is not to construct, but to open up a critical and free space in order to hold all the 'systems' at bay.
People seem to have abdicated their intelligence instead to Science, or outsourced it to the experts, when what is required is a criticism, or a philosophy, of science; it is, in reality, the abstract theoretical exercise. Not only that, it is about power which disempowers our imagination. It is the imagination, not the 'intellect' [the purged imagination] that has the power of combining the animal and rational elements of ourselves.
It is interesting to hear people say stuff like this... As someone that once spent countless hours playing games and as someone who was once dependent upon them (videogames are what got me through day to day life, so I consider it dependency) and as someone who has now given up gaming entirely but still has a passion for them I feel very different. Although I don't currently want to play games because of my living situation (lack of money, bad internet, roommates, etc.) I still very much cherish them and am passionate towards them. In hindsight, videogames were the best thing that ever happened to me, and without them I likely would've fared a lot worse. I wonder if I will feel the same way about porn a few years down the line (of abstinence of course)?
I wonder if certain things (stimuli) are far more damaging than others depending on the individual. For me personally, I have always been one to enjoy games, not just videogames but all types. I enjoy the challenge, the adventure, and yes the social interaction that takes place (some games are more social than others though). Even though I haven't played games in a couple of years, I haven't noticed a significant change in myself, which is unusual because as with other addiction once people quit they typically experience some changes. It may indicate that my mind is naturally attuned for gaming, meaning that no matter how much time I spent playing them, it won't effect me the same way other things will, namely porn.
When it comes to porn, my earliest experience was around the age of 14, where I would sneak into my brother's room and use his computer. Before that time, and it may sound kind of shocking, I was actually pretty damn innocent, there were tons of things that I literally had no clue about when it came to sex and such. Porn was not only my first experience with sex, it was (with exception to a few one night stands with some guys) pretty much my only experience with sex. I think my lack of any real experience with sex, and added onto that my natural curiosity, made porn an extremely toxic thing (stimuli) for me.
It is probably the case that many people are far less susceptible to the effects of porn, perhaps even inversely and they might even benefit from it. Likewise, you may also see the same kind of difference with other stimuli like videogames, drugs, social media, and so on. Kind of weird when you think about it.
I do agree that will is central. It is our desire, which does encompass our rational desire. So reason, by your definition, is a part of will.
Will is like our plan, it is what we want to do. We may make plans based on reason, or faith, or any other logic, but all of this makes our will.
The strength of our will is determined by its influence on our actions. We can make choices that contradict our will. We can be manipulated by others, tempted by instant rewards, fear, or even controlled by negative consequences (i.e. blackmail). The strength of our will is limitless because regardless of these things, we still maintain control over our body and make our own choices. If we will it, we can do everything exactly as our will dictates, as far as is allowed by physical limitations.
This is what each of us wants, of course. We want to be in total control of ourselves. Each of us can do that by finding what can summon our will, fuel our desire, or simply motivate us to be true to what we really want.