My speech to a woman who does not wear modestly

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by KennyKenny123, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. Not to get too TMI here, but...

    I've seen TONS of porn out there of men walking around on nude beaches masturbating to all the women they see there, and lots of sex happening on nude beaches.

    So I dont think your theory holds up that if everyone is nude, all men will suddenly stop caring about sex or seeing the female form as sexual.
     
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  2. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    No, I haven't. I am also not a man. But I believe in science and I believe that the Coolidge effect exists. Did you ever think about the fact that your personal experience could be affected by your addiction? Porn addiction causes desensitization and tolerance to sexual triggers.

    And also: it is still an option to mind your own business when you are at a nude beach and focus your attention away from the sexual triggers.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  3. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I really wonder how our species would have survived in caveman times, where we didn't have any clothes and all the males would have been so bored by seeing novel, nude mates all the time...
     
  4. TheBarbarian

    TheBarbarian Fapstronaut

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    If some dude really can’t control himself when he sees topless women he should move to Saudi Arabia
     
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  5. Randy

    Randy Fapstronaut

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    That isn't my theory. I don't even have a theory. Sexiness is elusive. It hits you when you don't expect it and it disappears when you try to capture it.
     
  6. confused thinker

    confused thinker Fapstronaut

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    How men would react is a spectrum. Some men would be in perfect control. Some men would verbally sexually harass women that are immodestly dressed. Some men can physically harass women. It does happen - are you denying reality?

    I am not justifying this, just saying that there is no point in basing one's view on an ideal view of human nature - it's just a bad argument.

    You said in a previous post it,
    I think that's dogmatic. It's just an unfounded metaphysical assertion. How do you prove that there is always a choice? That's not what we observe in reality. If there were always a choice, then there would be no such thing as addiction.

    I am going philosophical here...

    If freedom-of-dress can be based on something, perhaps it can be based on that freedom tends cause one to train his free-will. If women are allowed to dress exactly in the way they want, perhaps men will learn to be more in self control. After all, it seems to me that rape is less frequent in america than in Egypt for example (of course, I am in no position to give real statistics, that's just what it seems to me. see "rape in egypt" in wikipedia )
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
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  7. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    What is your point then when keep saying the reality is that some men can't control themselves? Socialized human behavior and psychology does most certainly not include crossing the line of respecting someone's physical and emotional boundaries. And that has literally nothing to with ideal human nature. That's like pointing out the reality that some people are psychopaths and serial killers and feel the need to hurt or kill innocent people for fun. Clearly it doesn't justify blaming me for my existence and forcing me to stay inside my house my entire life because such people exist. If you aren't justifying anything with you stating reality, then what point are you trying to make?
     
  8. confused thinker

    confused thinker Fapstronaut

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    If the only argument that there is for freedom of dress is that one-always-has-a-choice, then that case is rather weak, since one does not always have a choice, s\he might be too overwhelmed to be able to choose. That's what I wanted to point out by saying that men's reaction are a spectrum - the ability to exercise self-control is a spectrum, not an absolute ability.

    So I would love to hear other arguments for freedom of dress besides that one.
     
  9. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I agree that we always have a choice. With the only exception of the people I just mentioned who have not been properly socialized and have learned that invading someone's personal space and comfort is wrong. But I don't think including that minority of people in one's freedom of dress seems reasonable. That's like saying I shouldn't have the freedom to go outside because of terrorists.
     
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  10. confused thinker

    confused thinker Fapstronaut

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    I agree that a normal adult always has some level of choice. But it's not complete choice. It depends a lot on our moods, hormones, the food we eat, the weather, et cetera. Even adults can find themselves out of control, that's obvious. Had we always had absolute (100%) choice, addiction would not exist.

    So I'm saying that the argument from choice cannot lead to complete freedom of dress, since the amount of choice we have is not 100% choice.

    Nevertheless, like I said above, freedom seem to be useful to training one's rational faculties. So perhaps (not sure about it), if men\women would be allowed to go naked in public, our self-control would develop rather than deteriorate.
     
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  11. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    Training your willpower and self-control is a choice, motivated by the choice to respect people's boundaries and act in a way that is in line with your own moral values.
     
  12. So how do you explain addiction, then? Why are all these people who believe porn is bad and destructive still watching porn? Porn is 100% against my moral values. And yet I still watch it.
     
  13. SirErnest

    SirErnest Fapstronaut
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    We have a certain degree of self control and are habit-forming by nature. So, we can train ourselves out of things in certain circumstances.
     
  14. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I wasn't including addiction in my statement, I was referring to "normal adults" who supposedly don't always have a choice to control their natural instincts and respect people's boundaries because of "moods, hormones, the food they eat, the weather". I agree that addiction isn't a free choice, but addicts can still make the choice to fight their addiction to eventually have their self-control back.
     
  15. Randy

    Randy Fapstronaut

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    Our brains are incedibly powerful flesh computers. These computers are not centrally controlled. They are capable of running several different thought programs that seem to contradict eachother just like a computer can run several different programs at the same time. You do not choose your thoughts. They just spontaneously come into consciousness from our brain that mostly operates subconsciously. You have no free will. It is all up to grace.
     
  16. I agree with @confused thinker for the most part. This is all a lot less cut and dry than either side is making it sound. Theres more nuance in this than just saying men have free will and can control themselves, or men are pigs who cant control their desires.
     
  17. AngelofDarkness

    AngelofDarkness Fapstronaut

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    I don't want to get into a philosophical debate about choice and free will. My only point was that people who rape or sexually abuse/harass someone because of the way they dress lack moral values/moral behavior and consequently can't make the choice to not act on their natural instincts. Addicts in contrast do possess moral values/moral behavior, but they are compartmentalized, so the addiction might "override" their will to always behave absolutely morally right in a certain situation. In that moment an addict might not have absolute choice, but like said, they have the choice to start resisting their addiction and make better choices for and in the future.
     
  18. But men can control themselves... surely? Every action is a choice. Of course addiction is a choice. The first time we PMOd it was a choice. So was the second time. And the third, and the most recent one. We might hate porn but when we chose to watch it we don’t base that choice on our values, we base it on our lust. Still a choice. Just because we don’t like the repercussions it causes in our lives but keep going back to it, we have choice. We can hate porn 100% of the time, but relapse in 1% of the time because we choose ignore how we feel about it. But like others have said, we shouldn’t expect people to change for our freedom, but we also shouldn’t limit our lives because of them. Naked or in a burqa, there is still a risk from men who would choose to take advantage of someone, but that doesn’t mean women should hide inside.
     
  19. I don't think it's that simple... humans are really complex creatures. If a kid finds porn and starts m'ing to it I don't necessarily think the kid was in control then but if as an adult they continue the behaviour then I think you could say they chose to be an addict although I think that one is debatable too.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2018

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