My wife is so so angry...
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Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
I’m genuinely curious what concessions are shame based? He physically cheated, so has put her health at extreme risk. Wanting to know where he’s at isn’t a huge ask, even in a relationship that’s hasn’t suffered cheating, lying, gaslighting. She is trying to protect herself from someone, who has shown through his actions, he does not care about her well being. You may not care about the relationship, but if he wants to keep it, he will have to give up all the control he’s had for their entire marriage. He’s going to have to start acting like he cares, not just saying he does, while behaving in a way that shows he doesn’t.
KevinesKay
Fapstronaut
This is what I'm referring to. I said before that I understand why the wife wants this. But this extreme kind of policing demanding that a text be sent immediately upon arriving to a place is going to far. He's going to work. I wouldn't agree to such high maintenance controlling behavior based on fear. This isn't even healthy for her. It's exhausting for both of them. A wife is not to be his policeman, accountability partner, or therapist. Nor do wives want to be such.
And simply going along with whatever she says, relinquishing all control to her,
instead of
choosing to embrace conflict, speak up for himself, take charge of his own program, and take responsibility for his own healing is
Shame-based behavior. In my experience, I did such validation-seeking behaviors because I subconsciously believed I was a worthless piece of garbage. Because I treated myself with no value, others treated me as a person of no value. Doing whatever I can to salvage a relationship regardless of what I think is right is putting that person's validation of me over my own self sense of worth. It's not healthy. It's reinforcing shame, not healing from it.
I would recommend that OP would start prioritizing his own needs even if it costs the relationship.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
I think this is why the suggestion for location or life 360. It resolves the issue..he doesn’t have to remember to call and wife feels safer being able to check if she wants. Being married to someone with adhd has taught me not to rely on him remembering anything
. It’s literally only been two months since he shattered her world. The lack of empathy is astounding to me. I agree it’s not healthy for either of them, but it’s also the normal response. The other normal response is divorce. An abnormal extreme response is murder, bobbitt, or suicide.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Shame based concession, this could get contentious, but please try and be understanding, I'm trying to attempt to express something that I'm still learning about in my own life. This topic though hits deep with me and I wanted to try and discuss it further.
"She hit me because I'm bad, I deserve to be hit. I will defend her poor reaction because I'm bad, I don't deserve to be in a relationship where I'm able to express myself, my wants, my needs, they aren't worth discussing anyway, because I'm bad. I will do whatever I can to ensure that this blows over to protect myself because I'm bad, I feel safest when my shame is invisible. It's better that way, because if I were vulnerable it will be met with rejection and judgment."
I was referring Brene Brown earlier, and here's another quote of hers,
"If you put shame in a petri dish, it needs three ingredients to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence, and judgement. If you put the same amount of shame in the petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can't survive."
I think this is incredibly well put. The unfortunate part of this in regards to the OPs marriage is there will be zero empathy for the actions, (rightly so) but also from what I'm experiencing and seeing often here, there is zero empathy for the expression of the root causes of the addiction, it's a stage in the betrayal trauma response I found on BTR.org. This is where I think for someone struggling with an addiction, outside relationships are important, Like APs, small groups etc. It also though requires an incredible amount of instant vulnerability within the relationship that is not always easy to do, trust me, try expressing your feelings here and see how people respond...
Tying this to the topic of concessions, I think the same action, (letting the SO know where the OP is) can be either shame based and also not shame based, it really comes down to how the OP feels about it. To heal from the lies and betrayal, open honesty is needed period, I don't think this is unreasonable, what would be unreasonable is if he's doing so under the fear of how she may react. Similar to what @KevinesKay is saying, the concession can't be validation seeking or to do so in order not to be hit. This is why I suggested the phone location, it's concrete, there's full access for the SO at all times without the subjectiveness of if he forgot to say where he is going. Even though I think it's ultimately best to communicate where he is going, it does open the door for what @KevinesKay is saying when there is a failure to "check in".
@NWRebooter I'm sorry if none of this is how you actually feel, but I wanted to share. I think working through some of this difference between shame and guilt is really important for yourself individually.
"She hit me because I'm bad, I deserve to be hit. I will defend her poor reaction because I'm bad, I don't deserve to be in a relationship where I'm able to express myself, my wants, my needs, they aren't worth discussing anyway, because I'm bad. I will do whatever I can to ensure that this blows over to protect myself because I'm bad, I feel safest when my shame is invisible. It's better that way, because if I were vulnerable it will be met with rejection and judgment."
I was referring Brene Brown earlier, and here's another quote of hers,
"If you put shame in a petri dish, it needs three ingredients to grow exponentially: secrecy, silence, and judgement. If you put the same amount of shame in the petri dish and douse it with empathy, it can't survive."
I think this is incredibly well put. The unfortunate part of this in regards to the OPs marriage is there will be zero empathy for the actions, (rightly so) but also from what I'm experiencing and seeing often here, there is zero empathy for the expression of the root causes of the addiction, it's a stage in the betrayal trauma response I found on BTR.org. This is where I think for someone struggling with an addiction, outside relationships are important, Like APs, small groups etc. It also though requires an incredible amount of instant vulnerability within the relationship that is not always easy to do, trust me, try expressing your feelings here and see how people respond...
Tying this to the topic of concessions, I think the same action, (letting the SO know where the OP is) can be either shame based and also not shame based, it really comes down to how the OP feels about it. To heal from the lies and betrayal, open honesty is needed period, I don't think this is unreasonable, what would be unreasonable is if he's doing so under the fear of how she may react. Similar to what @KevinesKay is saying, the concession can't be validation seeking or to do so in order not to be hit. This is why I suggested the phone location, it's concrete, there's full access for the SO at all times without the subjectiveness of if he forgot to say where he is going. Even though I think it's ultimately best to communicate where he is going, it does open the door for what @KevinesKay is saying when there is a failure to "check in".
@NWRebooter I'm sorry if none of this is how you actually feel, but I wanted to share. I think working through some of this difference between shame and guilt is really important for yourself individually.
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Warfman
Fapstronaut
Yes, this would be an example... lol
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Very well put. It’s also why so many relationships do not survive this. It’s really hard to be empathetic towards the person who stabbed you in the heart then complained your bleeding in them.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Yes! And it almost always leads to relapses.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Something you might not realize you cannot shame someone who doesn’t already believe and shame themselves. I have a very difficult time understanding shame. My husband tried to shame me when we first married because of his guilt and shame. Things he said “ you are a nympho, you are not normal, normal women don’t like sex, if you were nicer I’d want sex more,” I did not feel shame. I responded that “ I was normal, something was very wrong with him” and I specifically intentionally did everything he wanted and was the nicest sweetest most submissive wife for a solid month to test his “ if you were nicer”…. Yeah, nothing changed with him. I don’t believe I have ever in my life felt shame. Guilt yeah, but I do not have a voice that tells me I’m bad so I have a hard time relating to this. I’m trying. But it’s very hard and it feels like a cop out to me. It feels like you want your cake and eat it too.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Check out Brene Brown. She's better at articulating it than me.
Shame is a self driven emotion. But an unempathetic person can trigger shame in someone else, and can reinforce it. I think everyone has a level of shame somewhere, but it's on a spectrum. High levels of shame often correlate with addiction.
CrushedandLeaving
Fapstronaut
Well, the wife is expressing what she needs to begin to feel safe. He is well within his reason to decide he will not meet those needs. She is well within reason to terminate the relationship in response. Both people are reasonable. The unreasonable thing is to expect her to stick around if he crosses her new boundaries or to decide that the way forward is more betrayal.
It is not her responsibility to lay down and take whatever he's willing to give her. It's her job to communicate what she needs and then to decide whether she can live with where he's willing to meet her within that. He broke the relationship irreparably. Neither she nor them as a couple will ever be the same again or ever reach the levels of love and trust that they could have. It's not unreasonable for her to not trust him when he says he's going to work. He has not been trustworthy. He has put her life and health at risk. There are consequences (and there should really be more, none of their relationship has been consensual since the moment he lied about his sexual activity).
It is not her responsibility to lay down and take whatever he's willing to give her. It's her job to communicate what she needs and then to decide whether she can live with where he's willing to meet her within that. He broke the relationship irreparably. Neither she nor them as a couple will ever be the same again or ever reach the levels of love and trust that they could have. It's not unreasonable for her to not trust him when he says he's going to work. He has not been trustworthy. He has put her life and health at risk. There are consequences (and there should really be more, none of their relationship has been consensual since the moment he lied about his sexual activity).
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Oh, I love Brene Brown. She was one of the first I started reading when my csat was trying to explain shame vs guilt. Triggers and reinforcement I absolutely can see. 100%. She has a lot of content you can watch as well which I love doing when I’m stuck in the house.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
^^^ this. He is not trustworthy at all. He has irreparably damaged both her and the relationship to the extent that neither will ever be the same. He may find, that he no longer wants to be married to her. As he goes through recovery , she may become someone he doesn’t even recognize.
nayexcuses
Fapstronaut
It's pretty common for SO's to use this site for pain shopping. Examples of such can be found in this very thread.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Then you know that she says a person without shame either has little capacity for connection or empathy or is a sociopath.
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Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Yes, I do. But I think she thinks shame = feeling bad. Whereas I think guilt = feeling bad. BUT. I do have a difficult time with empathy. I do not have a voice tgst tells me I am bad, or I am a bad person. When I screw up my voice says “ oh, that was not a nice thing to do” or “ they was a mean thing “ my voice never says “ wow you’re a terrible person”. Which could also be why on my dday unlike the vast majority of partners my voice said “ wow he is screwed up,I knew something was very wrong with him”…. I’ve never blamed myself. Not once. So I have a hard time understanding that as well. The closest thing I do have to shame is saying to myself as your “ fat”. But I don’t think that means I’m bad.Then you know that she says a person without shame either has little capacity for connection or empathy or is a sociopath.
Warfman
Fapstronaut
Toxic Shame is a core belief that one is bad. It's much deeper than just feeling bad.
I don't think that feeling shame comes from an act. It's actually more likely the cause of an act. Guilt comes after. Shame drives it, things like addiction, depression, are often because of shame.
It's often a lie the one tells themselves, but often is instilled by others, or one can be told it by parents, society, peers, bullying, etc. It can also develop I think with certain family structures. In the instance of a unwanted sexual behavior, the person is already struggling with shame, which often gets in the way of genuine connection. Though the reasons may not fully be understood, the person struggling often can think, I desire connection and wish I could be vulnerable but won't risk being emotionally hurt. That inherent belief of badness says "no you aren't worth being loved, just look at you" or something to that effect. So it is so much easier to not risk that and partake in things like PMO addiction etc. Cheap substitute with low risk.
I think the hardest thing to do when struggling with shame is taking that step into vulnerability. Especially when it's not heard, understood, or empathized with. That dynamic is very often the exact one that plays out in this specific situation with PMO addiction. I don't think it's the SOs job to empathize, but the person working through the shame deserves that empathy to start the hard work processing all those emotions. It just makes this so very complicated.
Makes sense when I read it anyway, not as much when I try and write it out myself.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
This is very much how my husband describes it.
KevinesKay
Fapstronaut
Actually, I felt the same. I wasn't consciously aware of it. Yet, I still carried toxic shame. I was unaware of it for most of my life. It was only when I discovered further resources on shame and took a closer look at my behaviors ; avoiding conflict, people pleasing, hiding my flaws, always being agreeable. It was a surprising revelation to me that I was still carrying this shame even after 2 decades into recovery.
Robert Glover's book, No More Mr. Nice Guy,
was a surprisingly good resource that expounded on toxic shame in great detail and how it manifested itself in my behavior.
I did read John Bradshaw's book, Healing the Shame that Binds you. But I found Glover's book to be a lot more applicable and helpful to me.
Psalm27:1my light
Fapstronaut
Yeah, I’m not a people pleaser( that should be obvious from my posts, but I get it, this is an anonymous site supposedly) rarely avoid conflict( again should be obvious from my posts) and I try to be fairly open about my flaws. I liked no more mr nice guy because it accurately described my husband to a T, but not me. I mean, I can have my husband hop on here and explain that what I’m saying about myself is pretty accurate. I’m very
self aware, and have a pretty good grasp on what shame is vs guilt. It’s also why I have such a difficult time understanding shame. Maybe it’s because my parents never shamed me or anyone. They never told us we were bad. They always said “ that was a bad thing to do or not a nice thing to do”.
I have not read Bradshaw book, surprisingly, since I read everything I could get my hands on when we first discovered he was an addict. Honestly, I spent thousands of hours reading, in therapy, and studying about addiction and betrayal trauma. It’s baffling to me how little effort addicts actually put in when I think about it. I also don’t work and become unhealthily obsessive when I want to learn something