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P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Well, I actually just had sex last night. First oral, and then regular intercourse later in the night. That was two orgasms back to back. I was actually quite shocked to find that I was able to not only get hard again after the first round, but perform sexually, too. Also, I lasted way longer than I thought I was going to. Don't get me wrong. I finished in under a minute (Nofap keeps you sensitive and full). But I found a good girl who has actually been really open to my paws recovery background and was happy to take things at my pace. She's almost a God send given how patient and understanding she has been. It's wild how empathetic she is. She even told me she's dated guys in the past with a similar background, and that it's not as big of a deal to some girls as its blown out to be, which is a hopeful consideration. Although everyone's different.

    Anyway, I feel fine. So far. My brain is buzzing from the dopamine. And I do expect to come down over the next couple days, and honestly, who knows how the good, the bad, and the ugly of that'll actually be. The times that I've just cuddled, kissed, and made out were actually quite nourishing to me. It kind of finally tapped me into all the hype about re-wiring and how critical that is to the recovery process. Because no it didn't give me symptoms. Rather the opposite. That led me to take the next step and have sex. I can definitely feel that watery dope saturation around my eyeballs and "frontal lobe tendrils" for lack of a better description of my cognitive structures. And I know that buzzing juiciness can't last forever. I'm just wondering how hard the come down will be. I know I won't feel great after the dip, but time will tell how relevant it will be to the bigger picture.

    Overall, I'm skeptically optimistic about it. I'm a little sleep deprived because it was a late night. And I have to go back to work tomorrow, so I'm hoping I remain functional through that. I really don't feel that bad, but come on, I just had sex, and I'm still buzzed. Please have my soul in your thoughts and prayers. I'm hoping in the next few weeks to come with good news regarding the possibility of a sexual future.

    Either way, I'll keep you posted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  2. Simorgh

    Simorgh Fapstronaut

    Good on you, Don Quixote :) I'm happy for you. From what I know, sex isn't the bad thing: PMO is ;) I just peeked at some pics of some lightly dressed girls; got to be careful. These pics feed into the addiction brain (the sex brain is something else entirely, sex is good for recovery I believe)
     
  3. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    sex brain is different from porn brain. There is no doubt. And yes, I think sex is healthy. But when you're in recovery, dopamine spikes are not ideal in any capacity. So there has to be some respect paid to your reward system as a general factor in your recovering health.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
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  4. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Any type of orgasm for me, leaves me feeling fucked. I have developed for sure POIS (post orgasm illness syndrome). on top of PAWS. OR more accuratet to say, PAWS has migrated into POIS

    @Don Quixote so this was your first sexual intercourse and orgasm in nearly 3 years? God help us if after 3 years of abstinence you arent healed
     
  5. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    oh, no no no. I've masturbated several times in the last year. I went 2 years of straight no pmo. And then I masturbated again. And since then, it's been two years, and in those two years I've done long streaks with intermittent masturbation. A couple of times porn bingeing preceded the masturbation. But I haven't PMO'd in 4 years. So, no, I'm not the cookie cutter archetype of perfection.
     
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  6. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Sure but what Im trying to ascertain is: after your 2 years of abstinence and recovery, you reached a point when you felt healed. subsequently you engaged in MO, some intermittent porn watching etc etc: and all this has been completely fine? You can now MO etc etc with no negative repercussions to mental or physiological health?
     
  7. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Oh, no, I can't MO without negative repercussions. But it's not like I spiral into day one hell hole PAWS either. Masturbation is wasteful and depressing. And it remains true that any excess in abuse of your reward system is going to bite you in the ass, eventually. How much dopamine you spend on a regular basis is how much karma you're stocking up for yourself. The circle will meet the square. I have to mind my peas and cues. But my experience with it in the last few months is that it wigs me out, adds stress, and then levels out, and I bounce back to my turtle step progress to being better and healthier.

    But given some of the reports I hear on this forum from you long term guys. It sounds like I'm maybe further ahead in my recovery in a lot of aspects. Though I don't know what you guys are going through. Generally, though, I feel pretty good and pretty optimistic about life. And while my cognitive function has not returned to its former glory, I've proven to myself on numerous occasions that, in one way or another, intellectually speaking, I've still got it, even if it's not what I once had. I accept that. I've come to terms with my limitations. And that life won't be like what it used to be. When I say I'm in recovery, in a sense, that's just the rest of my life reality. But also, more practically, it's because the longer I go on nofap the more and more and more and more benefits I'm discovering (minor relapses considering). Like I've been on this journey since Fall of 2017 - 2 years of relapses, 2 years clean, then streaks of several months with intermittent masturbation (and occasional porn viewing) up until today. To break it up in segments it's like

    --> 2 years descent into hell (Act I)
    --> 2 years crawling out of hell (Act II)
    --> 2 years of peaks and valleys/overall upward trajectory (Act III)

    Despite those interruptions, I'm still improving, which just goes to show, that as tiresome and arduous as addiction recovery is, in this realm of addiction, the fact of the matter is you'll keep recovering no matter what. I honestly think I'll be experiencing benefits possibly forever as my brain keeps working shit out. My goal is no longer to reach the holy grail of being "recovered." But to continue to recover. Day to day, month to month, even year to year, it's non linear, but when I look back at how horrendous I was 4 years ago, to where I am now, I'm out of this world better. Happier, smarter, healthier, even more so (in some ways) than even before I first went into paws. When I look at the trajectory of my recovery, and what's possible on the other side, it's always a better, brighter, healthier life! I'm no longer looking into the void of the unknown. I've recovered enough of myself such that life is worth living again and pursuing, and building attachments to.

    But yeah, my brain is still rewiring, growing, changing, adapting, reconfiguring, and in that sense I'm not recovered. The day I stop recovering is the day I've "recovered." And I don't really long for that day. I take it as a positive thing that I just keep improving.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2022
  8. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Got you thanks for the update.

    I guess the big question for me after a 90 day monk mode, and then 8 weeks of hedonism is; is sexuality over for life, or can it ever return to normality, being able to go on dates, have sex 3times during the night and morning, and go about the day without feeling massive negative consequences

    I am 3.2 years since my first real streaks, and although I am so much further along, all sexual activity slowly throws me into PAWS hell - even though the flavour etc of hell has changed. And all streaks quickly take me back out. Within another 90 day monk mode, my chess score will increase 40%+ back, I can speak and articulate myself, 6 months and I can now have work meetings without major anxiety etc etc

    Maybe it is now management and regulation for end of days. Im 35 this year, started nofap at 31, and have been in my apartment alone for the most of the past 4 years meditating, with intermittent breaks of hedonism and its associated consequences. Im starting to get serious itchy feet with the whole thing
     
  9. Monkeyboyab2c

    Monkeyboyab2c Fapstronaut

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    Maybe that kind of normal is still part of the problem. Isn’t flat out hedonism and random hookups just basically Porn in real life? It seems like it’s doing the same thing for you PMO did. Have you tried sex in a relationship with someone you actually love? I’m not at all trying to judge you. I’m actually very curious. It just seems like your trips into hell are prolonged by these massive binges you do from time to time. If you built your sexuality back up with a person you are in a relationship with I wonder if that would help?

    An analogy that it looks like to the outsider is let’s say you tore your ACL and you gave it time to rest and then immediately decide to run a marathon without any physical therapy and then wonder why your knee hurts so badly afterwards.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  10. mentorr

    mentorr Fapstronaut

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    I have to second what @Monkeyboyab2c is saying here. I think its worth questioning why you are actually getting itchy feet. What makes the indulgence of hedonism so attractive if you know deep down that you will end up in the position that you started in. I am also quickly approaching 35, and while it sucks, I have had to accept that holding off of sex until I find someone I am truly into might be the way forward - that is if I truly want to recover. It's a hard pill to swallow, but I think it might be much better than the alternative.
     
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  11. Simorgh

    Simorgh Fapstronaut

    Agree with both Monkeyboy and mentorr. Very legit points.
     
  12. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    Bro you could be living the dream sex life! Too bad the porn induced brain cancer fucked it up for you. Having sex 3 times in a row on one night and then again in the morning. Sick sexual performance bro! And these girls look like pornstars also? You could be living the hedonistic extravagant rockstar life if it was not for porn induced brain cancer. Even tho your willpower to quit porn sucks big time (so does mine so don't be offended). I wish I had your genetic makeup and be able to pump that pussy 4 times within' 8 hours. If I would do that, only a drip of weak drip of jizz would come out at 2 miles per hour, not being able to give a nice jizz mark on the hoes face. Jelly of you man.
     
  13. Simorgh

    Simorgh Fapstronaut

    This might be the one of the craziest comments I read in a long time :D Cheers for that.
     
  14. Monkeyboyab2c

    Monkeyboyab2c Fapstronaut

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    One thing I will say is that “Sinclair Method” sure upped your comment game.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2022
  15. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    From my experience and what ive seen full recovery is indeed possible. None of us still on here knows what lies on the other side.

    I feel like this has been my life, this whole nofap thing. I started this over 6 years ago.

    All i know is that recovery is worth it because i have been close at times. For me i dont care if i never have sex again if it meant all these symptoms would go away. If it takes me another 2 years from here then so be it.
     
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  16. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    @Dumnap lol

    I know what people are saying, but I am convinced even though the girls I sleep with are mainly one night stands and are generally very attractive, I dont see how having sex with a less attractive girl or one I was in a relationship would change anything

    I want to be clear again: all sexual activity hurts, I don't recommend it, for sure the universe is throwing me down one path, completel abstinence for a long period of time or forever - like a monk

    Im just sharing my journey for the sake of honest and transparency. Also all my sex is alcohol benzos and sidanfil fueled, including usually prilliigy too

    This is just my journey, and Im sharing it with you guys. I know some of you think I dont take it seriously or something. But for the past 3.5 years for at least 2.5 years I have been monk mode, with 12 months of intermittent relapsing and hedonism (at rough estimate) -- so it isn't like I don't try or havent sacrificed alot for the journey. What can I say I was in my early 30s when I started, and having to face the prospect of never having sex again is a hard pill to swallow.

    Wishing you all nothing but the best as always
     
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  17. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    I understand where you're coming from. You want that protective buffer. Where you can have sexuality that you don't have to constantly monitor without wondering what the consequences might be having it.

    It's been almost a week since I had sex, and I've noticed fluctuating stress levels, but not much more than that. No brain fog yet. I think if I went heavy on it, I'd start to decline. And my brain would have a hard time regulating. I think if I had sex once a month or every two or three weeks, I'd be fine. It would take a couple days to bounce back, but I'd be fine. No danger there. But my ability to handle orgasms has only ever increased over time. Last year, I wasn't able to handle an orgasm as well as I am this year. So, idk if the recovery ever finishes in that regard. It's maybe more like, the longer you go the better you can handle sex until maybe you get to the point that you can handle it straight up.

    Having two orgasms didn't ruin me. My brain chemistry has been different this week. I think that's to be expected after sex. But moral of the story is: I seem fine. And, I think, as more time goes by, I'll be more and more fine. The significance of sexual cost decreases incrementally through abstinence until it's such a small dot that it's microscopic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
  18. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Dude, (AS WELL AS EVERYONE ELSE ON THIS GOD FORSAKEN THREAD!!!!) here's some research I did on POIS. I imagine a lot of us are suffering from this. And it looks like they're actually developing effective treatments for this. Turns out they may have discovered why men feel brain fog, shitty anxiety, depression, fatigue, low motivation, low libido, "flatline" after sex, inability to concentrate, stress, etc, etc + a host of other more physical symptoms. Whereas other men do not. Such that it lasts days or weeks or months post ejaculation.

    The scientific hypothesis? (Drumroll please ................)

    Some men have/developed an autoimmune disorder/allergen against their own semen... Yeah... Read the article. It's trippy. Anyway, they treated it with autologous subcutaneous micro injections of the men's own semen over a period of 15-31 months. After two years, the men reported a 90% reduction in symptoms. One of the test subjects had severe premature ejaculation where he came in 30 seconds to a minute on the dot. But after this experiment, he reported averaging 10 minutes in bed from baseline, meaning these are second rounds that he's able to last longer on, his initial timeline is 10 minutes! It's unknown what the relationship is there, but it's incredible that these guys were able to finally treat their autoimmune disorder and get rid of a lifetimes worth of shit hole symptoms. I'm willing to bet that this plays a critical role in people going years clean and feeling set back after one relapse.

    Obviously PMO is the king killer, and it's ass, and it's poison to our brains. And I do think it can take 2 years+ to get out of paws from that, but people having wet dreams or going back to sex and having symptoms re-emerge, might suggest that they have this underlying autoimmune disorder and that porn is only half the picture. But this would also explain why despite our due diligence and dedication to being fucking monks for years on end, we STILL don't feel "fully" recovered. I mean, think about it. Even when on nofap, your body is still producing semen, and there's going to be leakage, wet dreams, and even if you hold it in against a nocturnal emission, all that semen is going to invert back into your bladder. So, it makes sense that long streaks show slow general improvement, but it's vague and unclear. Am I improving or am I not? How often has this thought been bemoaned on this thread! Well, if you're allergic to your own semen, the answer is neither! You're quite literally flatlined by an endogenous allergen that your body is reacting to. Add on top of that a depletion of your dopamine/hypofrontality from excessive porn use, and post acute withdrawal from removing the hyper stimulant. Guys like us go 2 years on nofap, and sort of feel better, but as soon as they go back to sex or jerking off, it seems to reset everything, quickly. And we waited so long, hoping against hope that we'd be like those guys that hit 18-24 months and just reawaken from their pmo slumber feeling like Goku from Dragon Ball Z! Why couldn't we be like that? Instead of stuck in this eternal hellfire loop of kind of getting "better" and kind of destroying our brains. They recover from the damage of pmo, but they still have the disorder, which depresses them and pushes them to give up and relapse thinking they could never "heal" given how hopeless the situation appears. It's a vicious circle, if true. autoimmune disorders/allergic reactions are capable of lasting prolonged periods of time. Might this be the explanation? A piece to the puzzle of our human suffering? Who knows? It might not be the true answer for all of us. But I'm excited to look into this and do more research!

    Please read the article below for yourself! THINK for yourself!

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1743609515334561
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
  19. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Yes Ive studied POIS in depth including the studies. The latest study cure was actually HRT - testosterone inections (think it was hcg) also cured the subject
     
  20. DerJogge

    DerJogge Fapstronaut

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    Hey guys,

    it puts a smile on my face to see Don back in here.

    I'm creeping around 33-34 months. It's hard to say if I'm making real progress as some areas are improving while others seem to decline and through my brain fogged and derealized perceptions it's hard to maintain a consistent evaluation of my own symptoms in comparison to past point in time.

    There are several things that improved and it mostly revolves around a natural motivation to approach women and start living again. There is a constant itch to go big and to finally participate in life which involves more than studying, working, sleeping and taking a lot of rest. Since about two months I actively want to change things and jump over my shadow and stop being held back by my symptoms. I simply can't stand it anymore to let PAWS dictate my life. I can't endure the pain of watching others living their life while I'm held in chains. Although my social anxiety isn't gone completely I went for several things that I would never dreamed of 1-2 years ago.

    As some of you know I don't drink alcohol anymore and going to music festivals was once a big part of my summer activities. I always feared that I never could visit one festival again as everyone is drinking heavily. One month ago I had a really cheap offer for a ticket and I said fuck it, I'm going on a festival with my sister and friends. I'm proud to say that I had great days despite being in PAWS and despite not drinking alcohol. Prior to the festival I also asked a girl out that I was working with once a week as I noticed that we are vibing really good. It took me some courage but I managed to ask a real life woman if she wants to go on a date and it wasn't sexually motivated in any way. This was an insane victory for myself. Back to the festival, on day 2 I had an awesome spiritual experience where I became one with the universe for some minutes and where I entered a state of feeling no difference between myself and the rest of the universe. It was awesome. The same night there was girl smiling directly at me for like 5-10 seconds and I just want ahead and talked to her which is a thing I normally wouldn't do at all. Those days I simply had no problem or anxiety talking to girls directly. Long story short, we made out and ended up in my tent where I got a handjob. I didn't lasted very long but it was fun. I didn't planned on having any kind of hookup experience but things turned out this way and there was just this natural libido and horniness. It wasn't like I was searching an oppurtunity of having an orgasm that night but it simply happened. I didn't crashed afterwards, I had a chaser effect for a few days. After the festival I was feeling very tired and worn out and somehow depressed but it's hard to say where this really came from. I mostly would say it was the effects of not sleeping more then 3-4 hours a night for 4 days while being in a really hot and messy environment and not so much that 1 minute handjob + orgasm. I also caught covid and got sick right afterwards for about 2 weeks which also was accompanied by migraines with aura that I didn't have in a long time. But covid fucked me up really bad. Had fever for 4 days, pain throat, constantly coughing, head pain. Some friends of me had similiar experiences. I also drank more coffee on the festival than usual so this could also be reason for the migraines.

    After all I don't think that a sexual encounter like this was causing any problems but I'm not planning on repeating that again. I simply was so god damn horny I couldn't contain myself. If my brain and body can't handle this then I will never recover. As I stated before weed, other drugs and alcohol were my main problems. Sure I had times of sex addiction but it never was a real problem.

    I'm slowly recovering from covid but I'm still having troubles finding back into my routine. Routine is extremely important for me. Sleep + eat routine is big part of my well being and I think that recovery mainly revolves around finding a routine and sticking with it for a few months. At least thats my way out of PAWS. I need to break a cycle that is going on forever. I need to get rid of the derealization. If I'm not brain fogged and derealized my life is freaking awesome. If I see the world clearly and without having the feeling of having a visual snowy 2D vision then I need nothing more. I can handle negative thoughts, I can handle all kind of shit and found outlets of pulling myself out of the misery but being derealized is by far the worst. My symptoms mostly revolve around my vision. My guess is that my brain is still recovering on the seretonine receptors and thus my fight flight and especially FREEZE reaction is still firing and that's why I'm derealized. I fucking hate being derealized. Beside that my symptoms mostly have calmed down. My sleep could be better but could also be worse. But not being connected to the world and having like a input lag is by far the worst. The day I get rid of the derealization I will be free and happy, simply as that.

    In order to get there I just tried this week to force myself to deep breath more. I need to break the feedback loop on the physical side and calm down my brain and body so it knows it's safe.

    I also forgot mentioning that I started working out last month which I will pick up these days again as my body is finally healing from covid and I also picked up making music again and I made some sick ass lofi hip hop beats. It's really a big part of living again. Making music was always my dream and even in my current state I'm able to make great music that touches the soul (at least mine and the people around me). I currently started upgrading my audio setup and bought new speakers and an audio interface. I also started plans on transforming my room in an amateur home studio to get a good reference sound for mixing my tracks. I'm just so hyped about making music. I started a little DIY project where I'm expanding my working desk. My brain could be better on abstract thinking but the simple fact that I want to do all those things is a good thing for me. I'm slowly starting to build up a healthy set of tools that I can pull out in order to properly stimulate my brain without causing the receptors to go crazy. Making music, working out, riding my bike that I bought some months ago, working my two jobs, studying and managing the shit of my parents.

    Sometimes I'm overwhelmed by life but I keep going. I'm currently meeting the girl that I asked out and we slowly get to know each other. She is a good soul but we also talked about the fact that we both are in process of finding back to health and happiness and we don't know if it's wise to allow something like this at the moment. But we said we keep meeting each other and being honest and upright if we don't feel comfortable with anything. Yesterday she cried at some point because she was hormonal and we talked about some pretty sensitive stuff. I talked to her and hugged her and made her feel comfortable again which she was thankful about. It was a pretty intimate and beautiful moment that didn't involved any kissing or something like that. Just two humans sitting on the ground in a park and talking about life and comforting each other. I don't know where this is going but I'm also ready to cut it off if I realize that it's not working for me.

    But I'm starting to live again folks. I'm getting back on my feet. PAWS will end but I won't wait for it anymore. I'm tired of this after nearly 3 years of isolating myself. This doesn't mean that I will induce in regular sexual activity or let coffee back into my life (I actually go for zero tolerance on that again) but I won't hold myself back when I get into a situation where a woman wants to be intimate with me BUT I'm not actively going around hooking up with women in order to get there.

    Last thing I wanna talk about is the fact that people started to notice me again. I'm not a fucking ghost anymore. I'm 1,92m big and my weight is around 91-93 kg and for the last two years I was walking through the world like people didn't even see me. Nowadays there is some obvious magnetism from women. Not every woman but often when I walk around and put my focus on something else then women and then I accidentally notice some woman staring pretty hard at me while getting really shy if she sees me looking at her. I also have much more intense eye contact and I can also maintain it if my symptoms are not to present. I just notice that some women are really crazy about me and I allow this to nourish the healthy side of my ego after nearly 3 years of walking through this world feeling invisible. I hope you guys don't get it wrong and think of me like some arrogant asshole but I'm just happy that the world has respect and attention for me again.

    There are many other things that happened but I'm getting to the point of writing a big ass wall of text so I stop here.

    Just so you guys know, I'm still out there on the battlefield fighting and I won't stop until my brain is back to normal until then I'm building on my empire in secret and for myself. I keep going with my music. I will turn around the life situation of my parents. I will finish my studying. FUCK PAWS
     
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