P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    I actually went to visit doctor Waldinger. He was the main guy who investigated the whole POIS phenomenom. That was back in 2015 tho. He was a Dutch professor. Too bad he died.

    Believe it or not but I was the one that told me that pornography might be the issue for a lot of POIS suffering guys. He started getting mad at me me for implying that. He wanted to stay to the premise that allergic reactions to sperm was likely the main cause.

    I told him about the withdrawal hypothesis. And he later even adopted it.

    The POIS wikipedia page dedicated to the withdrawal hypothesis is mostly written by me.
     
  2. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    POIS symptoms started very mild for me at the very beginning like 3.5 years ago, noticed slight head pressure after sex. Then since 9-12 months or so, its severe and unbearable pain after orgasm
     
  3. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    It is interesting indeed. I do not get POIS only paws. Orgasm for me either does nothing, sends me into a flatline or makes me feel better.

    For me P is certainly the problem
     
  4. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Yeah POIS in its full effect is a new thing for me, I had small symptoms of it, but now this is a big effect.

    How you progressing, your at like 7 months now?
     
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  5. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Hey man! Loved reading this. It's very similar to my own experience where I still had paws, but was anxious to start living a real life. I imagine in a year or less, you'll be where I'm at today. Where feeling normal all day is the norm. And your abstract reasoning will get so much better. It'll inch along for months in improvement until one minute you, in all shyness, have to consider truthfully that you very well have improved significantly in that area.

    And I'm telling you, getting with those girls is one of the best things (in my opinion) that you could do. Wise of you to be cautious about being sexual. That is still gonna be a big deal. I work with almost all women. And I manage them professionally. Being in that environment for the last two years (looking back) was and has been extremely critical in my recovery process. The women are super sweet and fun girls to work with, and over the last two years, I've fallen in "love" with them, having a deep care and compassion for them. Forming natural attachment bonds with women (once you finally can) does wonders for the rewiring process. For me, it deepened my sense of emotionality and connection to the real physical world in ways that mere abstinence couldn't really do. Just a week ago, I was reflecting on how natural it was for me to connect with people. It's weird. It's like I've developed this super power to just get on anyone and everyone's level and form a connection with them, and when I do, I feel myself becoming healthier and more whole mentally and physically.

    Attachment theory, and the concept of secure attachment bonding, has strong correlational values to sustaining recovery from addiction. People who have several secure attachment bonds in their life have a 60% greater likelihood of recovery from substance abuse addictions. We are social organisms, and we self-regulate and sustain our health by and through (secure) emotional attachments to others.

    My goal in life, moving forward, is to return to nofap. I'd like, in theory, to do another 2 years no PMO while I focus on my masters. Ultimately, my purpose in life is to attain wholeness. And I can feel it. I can feel my brain coming together and unifying like never before. I'm way more in tune with my unconscious. Way more receptive to it. Patient. Willing to listen. Willing to connect with the unknown behind the curtain of consciousness. I'm naturally gravitating towards a Jungian approach as a process of individuation into wholeness of being. There are so many dissonant, dissociated psychic forces, personalities, energies, drives (whatever you want to call them) within the unconscious that require attention and attunement. And that just resonates with me, generally speaking. I'm existing in a greater state of anxiety free faith in the unknown. Following my heart, listening to my body and mind, attending to its projections and symbols, my intuitions. I'm reconnecting with God - whether that's the real one or the "archetype" in my mind. I've realized I have a relationship with God within myself (whether real or not) as a psychic force or "complex." And because I'm reaching for wholeness, I'm finally open and healthy enough to desire a secure attachment bond to the God within (even if I can't speak of the God without/the "real" one). We all have that "God sense." And that sense is relevant to my wellbeing. Rejecting it out of spite or intellectual egotism is counterproductive to my health. Having a positive and secure bond or relationship with the psychic forces in my psyche is key. I'm working towards a harmonization of the internal pantheon, and so far so good.

    I recently found someone who might have access to psilocybin mushrooms where I live, and I'm planning on getting some and taking more while I map out a therapeutic use for them. That first and last trip I had a few months ago still has benefits I'm reaping to this day. And I didn't take very much. And more than half the trip was spent with friends, laughing and goofing off. The extremely therapeutic part happened at the end when I was alone and asked the psilocybin to help me and sent the fairy from my unconscious to help clean my brain (and if you read my previous post) removed my brain fog completely. It also was instrumental in jumpstarting my capacity for emotional attachment to people. I've been way more empathetic and naturally bonding after that trip. I think psychedelics are gonna be an instrumental tool in reaching deeper states of acceptance and love, and healing past traumas and their influences over me, as it already has.

    Finally, last night I had sex with that girl again (twice). So, again, two orgasms for the week in one night. Before I had sex with her I just simply felt great - emotionally, mentally, physically. I was walking in a park, and, I don't know, I just felt so connected to everything in my environment. Eager to live life. Yeah, that's my report! I felt great at the end of a week after having sex at the start. We'll see how it goes this following week doing it so closely to the last time. But I just said, what the hell to it. Once again, I was able to function sexually. Got way harder the second time, and it was only after about an hour or two of talking in between. I did not last more than a minute the second time, so still pretty serious PE. Not super worried about that. When I was driving home, I just noticed that my brain didn't feel anything like I do after I glimpse porn or see anything sexual digitally. That brain fog didn't come. And it genuinely seems to my own subjective consciousness that the sex did not in anyway malign my cognition. I do feel a slight sensitivity, and a very, very, very, very slight sense of sinus pressure behind my eyes and near the roof of my forehead where it dips into my nose bridge. My brain does have that more ethereal fluffy cotton ball lightness to it the day after, less rooted and slightly more indifferent to absorbing pleasure, but I think that's my receptors calming down.

    Anyway, I think the release of oxytocin really does counteract the surge of pleasure from the orgasm. Having sex feels absolutely nothing like masturbating or watching porn. It feels like it's coming from a completely different part of my brain. Also, I should note that when I started cuddling her, my physical senses were more alive than the last time. Like my body was connecting to hers, activating emotions that were more vibrant and sensuous than before. I think that's evidence that the rewiring process is the real deal. I don't hate sex, but I don't really think I like it that much yet. One because, while I have a connection to this girl, I'm not in love with her. She's not my girl. But secondly, I think my brain is still a little bit, "whoa what are we doing?" In the act of sex. I imagine I have a longer way to go actually rewiring. But I'm just so much more confident (as is) in the possibility of having a long term partnership where sex happens regularly and more frequently. Absolutely no bingeing it. I know that would become unhealthy and addictive - and cause a lot of problems I started out with. But once a week? That seems realistic with minimal disruption. And there are tons of couples that have sex on weekends, or even once a month. Maybe, if I can get a girl with a lower sex drive, I could make that work.

    Point is, there are possibilities, and I am extremely hopeful for my future. For once it finally doesn't look bleak and impossible, for once it finally is showing signs of normalcy. All emotional, physical, and mental evidence is pointing to the idea that having had this sex has been overwhelmingly positive for me. I don't want to get presumptuous. I know things can change, and the brain is a mystery, but living on faith - hoping and praying the right thing is the right thing. Please have me in your prayers through the week.

    I'll keep you posted.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2022
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  6. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Hi Don, keep the data coming in.

    I understand everything that you say in your posts, this past 3 years I tore Jungian work to pieces to understand what is happening, and this reconnectiong to God I fully get.

    It's just for some reason I can't seem to get the willpower to get back on a long long streak like where you are. After 3.5 years Im just fed up. For sure tomorrow, I can throw away my burner phone and create the conditions to get to another 90 days monk mode, but then what? Maybe I just need to let go of sexuality fully for a few years. Even during my last 3.5 years it was always still there in the background
     
  7. Monkeyboyab2c

    Monkeyboyab2c Fapstronaut

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    Hey guys I reached a bit of a milestone. I don’t check my day counter that often but I got curious the other day and realized that today marks 900 days Porn and masturbation free for me. I don’t have a lot of people who realize what that’s been like, and the only people who know what that’s like while dealing with PAWS are you guys. You guys have helped keep me sane so thank you all for that.
     
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  8. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    It's possible that it might be the question of, "what does it profit a man to gain the world, but lose his soul" type of narrative. The world being your attachment to sex and all the symbolic energy that's mapped to it. I know this is a little esoteric, so take it with a grain of salt, but maybe until you get to a point where you know in the deepest portions of your soul that you can be fulfilled apart from the sexual pathology, once your soul is convinced it no longer needs self-sexual exploitation, because you yourself have transcended it, or rather, confronted the complex to its deepest core, you will, in an ironic paradox, be able to rebuild a natural healthy communion with the act of sex.
     
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  9. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    That would honestly suck if orgasm made things worse every time.

    I am still going, sort of. I pmod for a few minutes about a week ago. My symptoms had reached a peak and i wanted a break. It marked huge progress for me as there was no edging involved but it did relieve some symptoms. I cant really say it did any damage at all to be honest. The edging is where things get really bad for me.

    My problem has been that i wake up during sleep around 12 at night with a huge urge to MO. Since im still half asleep i just do it because i cannot control myself. It creates a chaser effect which i have to deal with constantly. Its like my brain tricks me during sleep because it cant get what it wants during the day. Ive started taking sleeping tablets just to try and get rid of this behaviour
     
  10. mentorr

    mentorr Fapstronaut

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    Hi guys,

    I'm just catching up on messages and there are a lot of gems here, but something that has recently come to mind:

    How many of us here are actually rewiring? When I say rewiring I don't mean with intermittent sex, or casual hookups. I am asking who here is actually pushing the boat out to get to know someone without sex? Who has a significant other that they can be honest with? There have been a few posts between us that mention sexual encounters, but the common denominator seems to be that there is a large focus on withdrawal symptoms and avoiding PMO.

    I think it was DonQ who mentioned spending 2+ years, with little to no relapses and still not feeling healed. Something that I can certainly relate to. When reading the recovery stories of long rebooters, it's the same thing. Most of them met somebody to rewire with, and if they didn't they went 2+ years with little to no relapses (supposedly). So its pushed me to the question of who here is rewiring with a regular partner? I think a lot of us underestimate or write-off the importance of rewiring with somebody, simply because we cannot see the correlation between having somebody to be intimate with and withdrawal symptoms. However after spending so long on this thread, I am starting question whether this is the missing piece for most of us here.

    For the guys that have been successfully rebooting for the past 18 months+, have you been attempting to rewire?
     
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  11. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Hi,

    Could you tell me where you got this from? I know that attachment (or lack of it) is at the root of my problems. I have recently re-started therapy to try and look in to this further. Given the near total lack of attachment that happened after I was born, this is something I am rather pessimistic about in my own case.
     
  12. from2003

    from2003 Fapstronaut

    We will win at any cost , are we ?
     
  13. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    I got it from a literature review I was helping a university professor edit. I don't have the sources because there were multiple throughout. But if you look up attachment theory and substance abuse, you should find some articles that pertain to that. Essentially, that's what the article was getting at.
     
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  14. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Cheers dude!
     
  15. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Hey update,

    So, it looks like having sex (two orgasms back to back) once a week results in a max 15% decrease in mental quality and minimum 5% decrease in mental quality. Those percentages are somewhat relative throughout the week, but after 5 days I'm close if not entirely back to baseline. With one orgasm per week, I think my max dip would be 5% and my minimum would be 1/1.5% dip in quality.

    Part of the stress flare that happens post orgasms (throughout the repair stages) strikes me as maybe having some connection to a latent form of ptsd related to sexual ejaculation. It's so obvious that my brain is treating the orgasm as some form of danger when it does that. I think keeping a positive and healthy approach to sex will be key. But also, coaching my brain to not fear (through minimal sensitive exposure over time) might help improve that. Although, along with that, I do notice a slight (maybe 3.5%) cognitive/functional constriction post orgasm. Usually on the second or third day (the repair stages). It's sensitive enough for me to believe that excessive orgasm or sex would be overbearing for my reward system. Anything more than weekly would quickly show more severe after effects.
     
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  16. mentorr

    mentorr Fapstronaut

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    Hey Don, this sounds like a pretty big win, a congrats is in order for sure.

    Just to put these stats into perspective, can you remind on how many years of PMO you are recovering from?
     
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  17. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    I started noticing bad symptoms back in 2017. Went 4 months no pmo. Fell into a spell of relapses and streaks for the next year or so where my symptoms got impossibly worse, and then I got on a 2 year long no pmo streak that ended after 24+ months or so, and then I had streaks of several months with intermittent mo and some bingeing on p during separate occasions up until today. It's been about 4 years since I've pmo'd. Last time I mo'd was about 2 months ago? Same with seeing pornography.

    It's been almost a week since I last had sex, and I'm still noticing improvements from my post orgasm decline. I'm pretty much 100% certain that I have POIS and that I've had it from the beginning of my decline way back in 2017, which is why the effects were far more severe and long lasting. I've been doing a lot of research on it, and I'm just not sure what the source of it all is because no one knows.

    It just doesn't make sense that someone could go so long without pmo, make a lot of strides in recovery, only to be backhanded into negative symptoms the second you orgasm. Something's not adding up here.

    Anyone interested in looking into POIS for themselves, here's a forum (similar to this one) for it:

    https://poiscenter.com/forums/index.php?topic=2338.msg19448#msg19448

    Also, I found this youtube clip of this guy. He had POIS for 20+ years, which ended up ruining a significant portion of his life. He tried everything, but finally came to the point where he went 4 full years hardmode no pmo, and he claims that cured him of his POIS. Here's the link to his story below:

     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2022
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  18. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    THIS!

    How have I managed to miss this site!? OMG.

    "Is POIS a version of CFS?" Darn tootin it is!

    Thankyou Don as ever. Will be spending the rest of the day reading this site. I've been on for an hour already, and it's like coming home.

    From what I can see there isn't much discussion of PAWS. I think I have PAWS and POIS, but of course, who can really say for sure, and does the difference really matter? The solution is still the same either way!
     
  19. mentorr

    mentorr Fapstronaut

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    Today is 3 years since I started rebooting and I couldn’t have asked for a better gift.

    I read about POIS earlier this year and slept on the theory simply because I just couldn’t understand the science behind it, but watching the above video and hearing that it can take up to 4 years makes so much sense for me. Currently over the moon that potentially in a year from now I could be DONE with this thing once and for all.

    I had a read of the comments and noticed a lot of people also suffered with alcohol. @Don Q
     
  20. Eternal Struggler

    Eternal Struggler Fapstronaut

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    for the people saying they got permanent POIS from paws, you are still far from healing


    stop fearmongering, I'm 2 years out of paws and I can assure you things go back to normal