P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

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  1. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    Why does my posts get not any likey likeys? Thoughr this waz a serious site lolz.
     
  2. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Yeah, man! Sounds like a reasonable possibility. Interesting thing is that older guy basically said, much like a lot of nofappers say, that one day he just woke up and knew he was better after his nocturnal emissions. They had no impact on his health. The fact that he went on to experiment heavily with sex and then get married and start a family is a testament to the fact that he seemed to be fully recovered.

    It's been about 2 weeks since I had sex, and I'd say I've more or less returned to a baseline. But it's really hard knowing that I have a good person who desires to have sex and is incredibly patient with me but that I might not be able to continue with it if for no other reason than that I feel healthier without it. I'm going back to school and my job is about to ramp up. The summer of love, I think, has to be over. I think it was an important part of my journey to have sex and know it wouldn't kill me, to taste first hand the evidence that a sex life is actually possible. I had a bunch of unresolved angst in me about that, and now I think I should move on. Get back to no pmo.

    My schooling will take the next 2 years, and I think it's wiser than anything to do another 2 year streak, and really come to terms with being able to live without sex, completely. There's something to that. The fact that, after 20 years of struggling for answers, that guy finally looked the thing destroying his life in the face and truly said, "no more." And what a paradox of fate that once you give up the thing you think you need, and truly truly, give it up, only then, can you get it back.

    On a POIS investigation note: one thing I discovered a lot of guys seeing positive results from was fenugreek and garlic as resolving their post orgasmic symptoms. I went to the store and bought some, believing it was probably hocus pocus placebo, as everything always is. But I popped 1,200 mg of fenugreek and 1,000 mg of garlic (both in pill form) and within the hour any lingering brain fog I had just evaporated. I still had my structural cognitive limitations in place, but of what portion of brain matter I still have left, the tension and fog surrounding it melted down to almost nothing. It was quite miraculous. I would have never believed diet or drugs could have done anything for me, mostly because guys come on here all the time touting bullshit magic cures. But after diving into the POIS forums, and experiencing, first hand, my own benefits, I'm opening up to the idea that I have some potentially severe nutrient deficiencies (i know taking vitamins has helped my recovery a great deal). I probably have candida. And a fucked up micro biome. There was a guy on this thread that said that getting enemas revolutionized his sexuality bringing it back to life and clearing his head from brain fog. That definitely ties to gut health.

    I saw another video of a guy who had POIS for years and claimed to have cured it by fasting, then taking on an anti inflammatory diet supplemented with enemas and pre and probiotics over the span of a couple months I think. IT was not a quick fix, but he noticed his orgasms producing less and less symptoms over time until he was completely symptom free.

    It's fair to say pmo is exceptionally damaging to us because we are high on the POIS spectrum. Most men don't feel like shit after orgasms, and that's why so many people came to this thread mocking us, saying it's psychological, or it's all in our head, or we just need to "get away" but that's because orgasms don't make them ill like they do us. We have a disease they don't. Add on top of that pmo addiction and it's no wonder we dug ourselves in such a world of hurt. Now, I don't doubt at all that you can go through extreme pmo withdrawals because I myself did, but I think why it was so bad and intractable was because I was suffering from POIS, and the symptoms just got worse and worse, longer and longer.

    We've investigated trauma, yeah, that plays a role. We've looked within. We've looked without. We've looked at almost everything - meditation, therapy, exercise enormously long streaks. But none of those things address the underlying condition, which is that orgasms make us ill. There's a reason why, and I'm willing to bet it's a far more complex disorder than merely one thing. For me, I think it's dietary/nutritional (for sure) pmo addiction (for sure) early childhood trauma (for sure), underlying mental health conditions (for sure), complex ptsd (for sure) something immunological (potentially), nervous system/sexual fatigue (for sure), part genetics (for sure), an unhealthy micro biome (for sure). I notice little incremental improvements when I focus on any of these things. If I tackle all of them, and commit myself to a path of wholeness, then I think I'll be good to go.

    I'm already out of PAWS, and have been for a while. I feel pretty good on the day to day, but now I need to take the next step and overcome POIS. One thing that's 100% fact is the longer you go on nofap, the less and less symptoms you experience from orgasms. I'm already at a point where nocturnal emissions don't do anything to me. And even sex has minimal negative effects. I think within a year or two of abstinence, those effects will be seriously cut down. But I'm fine living without sex. It's not necessary. Like that guy said, as long as it takes. To quote him quoting Alcoholics Anonymous, if you're doing something, and that thing is ruining your life, stop doing that thing. I think insanely long monk mode - where you deep down truly accept your freedom from sexuality. Not just "go" a number of days on a streak, but commit to a complete internal inversion of your orientation towards sex can there be that change. As long as I've gone without pmo, I've always felt or remained, in some way, attached to it, like my foot was still in the back door for it. I have to remember I can always return to the hell whence I came.

    But more and more I feel wholeness is actually possible. That there's an end on the other side, the heavenly side of life. Speaking of which, and I'll close with this (sorry I always write novels). But I found someone nearby that grows psilocybin mushrooms, like very potent ones. Last trip I had was extremely life affirming, and I still notice benefits to this day from that drug. But it wasn't a full on trip. I clearly didn't take enough to have the fullest and deepest experience. Plus, I was using it with friends, which cut into the psychotherapeutic utility of the drug (although it facilitated a bonding experience that has spilled over into my life and strengthened my capacity for attachment; I think there are advantages to taking it with people *therapeutically* and alone). Anyway, I want to take a high dose by myself, and I want to experience ego death, and I want to confront my trauma, and my addictions, and depression - and reconnect to spiritual attachments. And I do believe this drug can do that for me. It can help me set out on that road towards wholeness.

    So wish me luck!
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2022
    Dave G 123 likes this.

  3. Just a short update.​
    I am around 460+ days with no relapse.Still I feel nowhere near finish line.
    It's certain that it's one of the greatest struggle that I had in my life with myself.its a daily tussle within me. I have experience many improvement over these 15 months.
    From last update my stomach has improved a lot and I'm much better.Rest all 3 things are as it is i.e.:-
    • Persistent Exhaustion and zero sexual libido
    • Quality of sleep &
    • Persistent ED/PIED and PE during sex but I get good erections regularly eg.morning wood.
    Earlier I thought that I'll finish this journey in say 20 months considering my prolonged MO for 19 years and PMO for last 12 years before starting this streak on 21-04-21.I thought 1 month for 1 year but I think it's not be going to be like that.
    I'm much better and relaxed and content but I want back normaly on above 3 things as it's affecting my married life.

    Guess I must be one of the worst cases in long time rebooters but I'll beat this addiction this time.It has already taken out a lot out of my life.

    That's all.Continue this beautiful and life changing journey in a hope to cross the line one day.
     
  4. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    "Supplements don't work" - DerJogge 1993

    @Don Hector

    Sick writing skills bro. This man would win a literature nobel prize of he would write a book or poem. Sick sick tight tight tight!

    (k)
     
  5. mentorr

    mentorr Fapstronaut

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    It is really strange that you mentioned having candida. After watching the video you sent on POIS, I was somehow led to research the links between candida overgrowth and PMO withdrawal (PAWS). Imagine my dismay when I realised that the symptoms of candida overgrowth are pretty much the same as PAWS symptoms!

    • Brain fog
    • Chronic Fatigue
    • Low libido
    • Hormone imbalance
    • Poor immune system
    • Depression
    • Anxiety
    • Acne
    • Bleeding gums
    • Inability to focus
    • Insomnia
    • Irritability
    • Muscle aches and stiffness
    • Poor memory
    After realising the similarities, it got me wondering how a fungus that lives inside our guts can have such a profound effect on our bodies. That is when I read that the toxins produced by candida overgrowth can basically feed off of the nutrients our bodies are supposed to be receiving! A doctor also explained that candida produces a toxin that has a negative effect and feeds off of the bodies neurochemicals (including dopamine and serotonin), which could explain why for some of us, after years of rebooting we still don't have our sex drive, moods and mental capacity back.

    What makes me very confident that I also have candida is the fact that whenever I drink alcohol or consume an amount of sugar my symptoms seem to get worse. It literally feels as though death is knocking on my door, something that didn't occur much earlier in my reboot for some reason. Besides the PMO, for me I spent a lot of my younger years binge drinking, and heavy alcohol use seems to be one of the main causes of candida overgrowth in the gut.

    There's a lot of speculation here, but I can't escape the feeling that candida overgrowth is likely at play for a lot of us here. Below are some examples I found from other rebooters.

    https://yourbrainrebalanced.com/for...finally-figured-out-what-happened-to-me.8858/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/3v0439/i_think_ive_found_the_key_to_unlocking_nofap/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/NoFap/comments/4gt3kb/candida_albicans_serotonin_and_nofap/

    Final thing before I forget: congrats on starting your counselling course! I am also hoping to get certified with counselling but think I need to wait a little longer until some of my mental capacity returns. I would be interested to hear how you find it.

    In regards to psilocybin, after an ayauascha trip earlier this year I have been trying to find some psilocybin to also assist in dissolving the old ego once again. Its an interesting experience for sure, but being in the UK I have no idea how to find any. Again I would be interested in hearing your experience if you manage to get your hands on any again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2022
  6. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    It's easy to find psychedelics online on the clearweb or darkweb. Many Dutch webshops on the clearweb sell them and many darknet markets sell them too. You don't need any psilocybin or Ayahuasca (oral dimethyltryptamine) for an ego death or spritual experience. Any serotonergic agonist psychedelic at high dose will work. 5-MeO-DMT is actually used to induce an anti-addictive state and works as an anxiolytic and anti-depressant because of increased hippocampal neurogenesis. It's easy to get online.
     
  7. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    I mean none of this is rocket science, its just hard to accept. For me at least, it's just a journey of accepting the truth: life is immeasurably better without sexuality.

    The longer I abstain from all sexuality, the better I feel. Maybe there is an inflexion point where it no longer has any negative repurcussions, but I dont fully buy that either. Any sexuality used for pleasure in and of itself will have a negative impact to some small compounding degree, that much is obvious to me now

    Monk mode again it is for me starting tomorrow. I think as pretty much everyone has fully healed has ever said: you'll know when you heal, same way you knew when you was sick, something just wasn't right

    God speed all
     
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  8. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Yeah, man, this here is the truth of it. If something makes you feel sick, the only sensible thing to do is to stop doing it for however long it takes to feel whole again.
     
  9. I continue to see improvements as time progresses. Safe to say that as long as the train keeps moving forward then I'm bound to get to my destination.

    I'm already starting to very much crave human connection. If that ain't a fucking win then I don't know what is.

    Who woulda thought this shit would take ~3+ years?

    No matter what, I'm closer to the finish line than the start. Hopefully by a long shot. Since there are a lot of guys that are all near the 3-year mark, there's going to be a shotgun blast of recovery stories. Seems like we're spearheading the recovery effort that deals with this new, more diabolical form of symptoms. Hopefully, it'll motivate others. If not, then at least it has given comfort to the handful of us that are experiencing such a rare strain of life. It's alienating moving through the world whilst operating under the assumption that people will not understand our predicament. I gave up, pretty early on, sharing my version of what has been happening to me. This forum has been one of the rare forms of catharsis for me. Otherwise, I use depression as a trojan horse and don't feel the least bit bad about it. A true white lie.

    It'll be the most isolating experience of my entire life man. I mean, as I gain more and more perspective, it's truly fucking WILD that I've gone through this. Rarest of the rare. Volcanic explosions of pain and anguish. Good lord.

    If I do get better, which I have to believe is an inevitability, then I'm going to surprise a heck of a lot of people. Things like that fuel the hope engines when all seems lost.

    Good to see Donald again. Glad things are goin' well.
     
  10. Dumnap

    Dumnap Fapstronaut

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    This thread should be renamed to "Circlejerk - what are they, cure, duration.
     
  11. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Craving connection you say? Sounds like the thoughts of a man who is becoming whole! Dude, you're gonna do it! 3 years clean. You have no idea how much leverage that gives you. DO IT! make it small. Make it incremental. Join like an SA group or something where you can open up and form attachment bonds with trusting people. It will accelerate things. And when you regain a fuller sensitivity to life - the emotions that hit you can be pretty overwhelming and unfamiliar and scary, which can cause a relapse. You've gone a great portion of your life not having to feel anything. The best thing to counteract that is to have attachment bonds that are secure and allow you to self-regulate naturally. I started building up some killer friendships, and it has been the #1 most helpful thing in recovery. Shot me to the moon. Now I am positively in love with these people and would give my life for them.

    But more practically speaking, the friendships attach me to life itself, which teaches my heart to produce love and attachment chemicals, which keep me engaged, more happy, and, obviously, way more connected, such that those relationships are a legitimate value that contradicts the narrative of addiction and its natural trajectory. My socialization abilities are off the charts. In fact, I can confidently say I'm better than I was before the addiction. Way more confident. Way more natural. Way more myself. And way more healthy enough to actually connect.

    Now those friendships may not last forever. But the point of friendship isn't that it's forever. The point is that it's good. It's so good. And I want to take in all the friendships, long and short, by which we live, survive, and flourish. People change and move on. But to deeply connect with someone at a significant point in their life while respecting their autonomy and individuality and almost always kind of encouraging them to move on from you when they're ready almost strengthens that bound. We want to be attached, to feel bonded, but not trapped or ensnared. All my friendships I'm content with ending. I guess I'm like that naturally. I'm so introverted. If no one wants to be with me, I'm kind of ok with that. I love being alone. I most often prefer it. But sex, drugs, porn, orgasm - nothing is more fulfilling than to feel connected and loved. PMO does everything in its power to destroy your ability to connect to people and things, so when that comes back, be slow, and patient. Don't get anxious about making friends, but use that craving for connection as a subtle guide to moving forward.

    I'm so happy for you Zander! Like you said, no matter what, so long as you're riding that torturously slow horse, you'll continue forever and ever and ever to get better each day. And you've got your whole life ahead of you. YOU. WILL. GET. THERE! I'm STILL experiencing benefits! BIG ONES! And everything you're reporting is not far out from what I experienced in my slow recovery. I, like you, started feeling those attachment cravings. But now, almost every morning, when I wake up, I wake up to this calm, subtle warmth in my brain. Yesterday morning, I was so happy, and I was like, "why am I so happy?" And, honestly, it's just the inexplicable joy of being healthier. I have far more good days than bad. When the paws goes away, you might not feel whole yet, but don't let that get you down as it did me. It's a journey, and there's so much wisdom and power to gain from all this.

    Just keep going!
     
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  12. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    Out of interest is anyone here a member of a AA or SAA group etc?
     
  13. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    No, but I have been thinking of joining one. I have found one in my city. The thing is, for me it isn't about sex, it's about P. I have no idea if I would really fit in because of this. A therapist suggested that I try this years ago, but I was too ashamed / embarrassed, but at this point I'm too desperate to care.
     
  14. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    I think it applies to all addictive behaviours, Im sure porn addiction falls under their umbrella
     
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  15. Dude the wavelike pattern is exactly what I've been enduring over the past ~3-4 months. I go through 4-5 rough days then "wake up" and see the world even more clearly than the last cycle. For instance, yesterday and today have been some of the best days of the reboot I have ever had, while days earlier I was feeling like a sack of shit, with hardcore anxiety and depression. Glad to know that this isn't a rare thing.

    When did you know you were really gettin' close to the finish? Was your vision clearing up? Like, for me, colors explode more. Trees are kind of fuckin' magical when I'm having a solid day.

    What else were you noticing? I still can't really read books yet, but I can focus on T.V. better. Also, I now, during the good times, very much crave the company of friends. Was this one of the last things to come to you?

    Thanks for saying this.
     
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  16. OhWhenThe

    OhWhenThe Fapstronaut

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    I've recently incorporated NoSurf into the process and I'm now of the opinion that whilst P/M/O are the biggest enemy, mindless internet browsing is actually part of the same umbrella and is greatly slowing down recovery time. After two weeks of cutting my internet usage by probably 95% or more I was noticing changes that I wasn't even seeing after four months of NoFap. I should say that I believe those four months still played a part in that but all the low-level dopamine I was getting from wasting a big chunk of the day online was limiting the progress I was making. Being online may only be a 2 or 3 on the stimulus scale(with PMO being a 10) but that's still enough for the bucket to keep leaking and to prolong the process.

    There is a downside though in my experience(hence my counter) and that is that porn cravings become more intense and the lows feel even worse, staying clear of PMO is hard enough as it is so it's a bit of a trade off.
     
  17. Don Quixote

    Don Quixote Fapstronaut

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    Hey guys, here's another update:

    It's been 2 weeks since I had sex. And any negative side effects I experienced are 100% gone. In fact, this last week has been very full. I mean, really really happy. Last night, I went for a walk, and I just felt peaceful and at ease. Earlier in the day, at work, I had a ton of downtime so I started reading an introductory book on neuroscience, and it was quite challenging, but for the first hour or so, I was able to track with all the technical break downs. Later on it proved to be more than my brain could work out, but I kept reading because it was actually fun to read. Normally I fixate deeply on the structural sensations/"limitations" that I feel when I read and get frustrated and stop. But I just powered through and was actually able to focus.

    Interestingly enough, I started taking ashwagandha and the fenugreek with garlic. Both are brain supplements, and boy have I had positive results from that. Like my mood, my memory, my focus is notably sharper on it. One downside is it makes my tinnitus slightly louder (I think). I'm looking into ordering some Lion's mane. Done a lot of digging into that, and the science seems clear, Lion's mane promotes neurogenesis. I'm also eating healthier, which has notable positive benefits. Doing a little exercise, too.

    I was thinking about having sex again this weekend, but I honestly just didn't want to. I felt so good this week, and I just like feeling so good. There's nothing perfect about it, but I feel as though my body is finally resting from NOT being high. It's like I got high so many times that my brain just fried out and got stuck in the arousal mode minus the calming opiates and dopamine, which was just high alert hellfire burning through my system for years. Then it calmed down, and I didn't have paws anymore, but I still had cognitive issues and too much of something would sort of bring minor paws back. Because while I'd made it out (after 2 years no pmo) I was still fragile. But now it's a lot different.

    Now it's like I'm actually resting and healing. I don't know if it's too much to presume, but I'm noticing like day to day benefits rather than month to month or year to year. For example, not last night but the night before, I had this really deep deep dream where I guess I was on impractical jokers the tv show. And Sal Vulcano, one of the jokers, was pulling a prank on me or something? I was in a theater, and I don't remember much of the contents other than, after the practical joke was pulled (whatever it was), the jokers and I were hanging out in like a warehouse area just laughing and being super friendly and interpersonal. I know it sounds weird, but the dream generated this deeply loving and joyful and meaningful connectedness in my heart that I still feel now. It's arguably one of the best dreams I've ever had, and that has nothing to do with the content lol. It's just it had this profoundly humbling and nurturing effect on my affect.

    I still have those, "I'm hopeless and I'll never get better, and I should destroy myself with whatever pleasure I have left and just die" type moments. But they are like 5 or 10% of my day. And it's much easier to snap out of it. the other 90% is spent being happy and feeling simple, and more than anything, hopeful. Desiring connections, desiring to learn, grow, get better, and take care of myself. It's just I've improved so much that there is a lot to hold on to throughout the day. There is more and more good in my life, and that gives me a reason to stay connected and plugged in, and overcome moments of darkness.

    On my walk, I even had this strange intuition where I was almost sad that I was feeling less negative because for some reason it felt like the darkness was useful, and I wanted it to be synthesized with this fluffy positivity I was buoyant on. That's a difficult one to explain unless you've had the intuition yourself. I also noticed how alive and present my addictive self still is. It's almost like when you regain sensitivity, become happier and healthier, your capacity for addiction becomes more juicy - is that the word? Like that sharp singular arrow of intention gathers more poignant addictive energy because you aren't numb to the world anymore. I'm not sure if that makes it harder or easier to resist. But I think it's worth mentioning.

    Anyway, you guys have been super encouraging to me, and I'm so grateful for you all, and I want you all to experience these goodies. And I know you will. You kind of just wake up to them. I'm still leery of my own capacity for self-deception and addiction. Please have me in your prayers, so that I can continue getting healthy and learning.
     
  18. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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    For the sake of transparency for all those that might come after, whenever I do my relapses or hedonism, I end up: taking low dose ketamine to numb the pain, valium sporadically used, v--agra and alcohol, but ketamine is a side addiction Ive picked up in hte last year to numb with the physiological pain
     
  19. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

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  20. I have an appointment with a holistic health practitioner on August 12th. My suspicion is that the root cause of my ailments are adrenal fatigue. Before scheduling the appointment I had a phone consultation with the therapist and he had mentioned it was possible the kidneys were deficient of qi. The initial appointment will be for two hours which will include acupuncture as well as being prescribed some type of herbs for treatment.

    Currently I live a very healthy lifestyle so I think I've reached the limit of what I can do myself. This problem is not going to be solved by more abstinence, more exercise, more meditation, diet, etc. I'm still improving however I've seemingly hit a rut and it's just taking SO DAMN LONG. The idea of slowly and progressively healing over another five or ten years is not appealing so I've decided to be proactive.

    I believe my life of childhood abuse, self sexual abuse, alcohol abuse, and neverending strings of toxic relationships had given me PTSD and it is still not fully unraveled despite years of clean living.

    Some people in the nofap community report flatlines of a few months before they are more or less back to normal. Then there are people in this thread who are still messed up even after years of complete celibacy. My belief now is that the people in the first camp are dealing with a porn/masturbation addiction and several months of celibacy is sufficient for healing. The people like us are dealing with something much deeper. You can call it adrenal fatigue or kundalini awakening which I believe points to the same phenomenon. Spiritual sickness will manifest itself in the physical plane.

    Short version: my life and health keep improving in my sixth year of sobriety but the mind, body, and soul have not yet fully healed. I look forward to sharing how the treatment goes in this forum, especially if it could help others.