PAs: You Don't Deserve Abuse

Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by Castielle, Sep 18, 2018.

  1. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm sure I will get drama from this, but I honestly feel it's a long time coming and it needs to be addressed. I do not want to call out specific people, but I will be referring to some damaging mindsets I've seen on these forums. If you're someone who subscribes to those mindsets, I mean no offense and I'm not trying to stir anything, but I want to provide an alternative perspective that I dont see as often.

    Also, I think its worth noting that this perspective is coming from myself as both a PA and a wife of a PA.

    So heres thing. I see a lot of damaging views around here that I often ignore for the sake of not stirring up drama, but I am here now to say that if you are a porn addict, you do not deserve to be bullied and emotionally/verbally abused just because you've made mistakes. If your wife wants to leave you because of your lies or your porn addiction, that's her choice, but you do NOT need to put up with being treated like crap just because you've made mistakes. I see a lot of comments around here about how much women are hurting, and I totally get that, but often these comments are used as an excuse for retaliation, revenge, abuse, bullying, and having inhuman expectations of husbands.

    We are all just human beings. Your husband can not be expected to have no sexual desires or to never think another woman is attractive or avoid any triggers for the rest of his life. That's not realistic.

    And men, if your wife is treating you like crap, giving you the cold shoulder, using you for her own pleasure and denying you any of your own, and expecting you to serve her 24/7 and grovel at her feet for your mistakes, that. Is. Not. Right.

    Let me say it again... that is despicable behavior, and it is not just or fair. I get being angry, and I even get yelling and swearing and all that jazz, for a time. Trust me, I've done all of that. But if your wife is unwilling to ever forgive and forget and is not even entertaining the idea of working toward that goal, and she just wants to keep you around for herself and constantly bring up your past as an excuse to look down on you and expect you to serve her, that is an ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP. That is NOT healthy, and you do NOT need to roll over and feel as if you deserve that for your mistakes.

    Technically, we all deserve literal hell for all the crap we've done in our lives (tou and your wives included). But that is not the appropriate way to handle hurt in a relationship. I'm not talking about temporary hurt, like a few weeks or even a couple months, but it is wrong to continue to hold someone's past mistakes over their head for years and keep expecting them to make it up to you by meeting all of your needs and then pushing them away because you're hurt and need your space whenever they want anything in return.

    Now, I'm not saying any of the women here are necessarily doing any or all of these things. But I've seen far too many men here who are so willing to accept emotional and verbal abuse from their spouse because they feel they "deserve it" for being addicted to porn and making so many mistakes. You dont need to accept abuse, and if your wife is acting that way I'm sorry, but shes wrong. And while I think a lot of the hurt women are experiencing in the SO forums is helpful for PAs to see, I think a lot of it can also be damaging and lead to bullying and an abuse of power. And it's sad to see.

    Anyway, that's my rant for today. I dont post many threads these days, but this is something I really feel needs to be said. I'm so sad to see so many men groveling and being bullied and abused for their mistakes, all while feeling like they need to just sit around and take it because it's what they deserve. Its cruel. If someone is not willing to forgive and move on and try to make things better, then maybe they should just leave. That's a far kinder alternative.
  2. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I really do apologize if anyone is offended by this, and I genuinely dont want to hurt feelings or cause drama. But I've thought about it a lot, and I feel its too important of an issue to remain silent. A lot of what I see in the SO forums is so toxic, and a lot of those views seem so common place that I honestly thought until very recently that I was the only one who didnt agree with them. So I would imagine a lot of men feel that way too. Like that's just how women respond to PAs and their addiction, and it's normal and okay. And I'm here to say that, in my opinion, it's not normal, and it's not okay.
  3. James Jones

    James Jones Fapstronaut

    Hmm. 10 in just 6 weeks seems quite a few.
  4. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Cool. Seems like you got a lot out of this thread. What's the point of this comment? And did you seriously go search how many threads I've posted just to make this jerky comment? Congrats, that's super mature of you.

    I very rarely post new threads anywhere outside of the off topic section. I suppose that's how I should have phrased it. Didnt know I was going to have the thread police dissecting my every word. Geez louise.
    Rehab101 and EyesWideOpen like this.
  5. James Jones

    James Jones Fapstronaut

    yeah everythings cool, just saying.

    What i got out of your thread was misandry. why kick a man while he is down, right?
  6. 0111zerozero11

    0111zerozero11 Fapstronaut

    Your husband is so blessed to have you.
    This is the 2nd night in a row you've had me (thinking about) running through the streets screaming "she gets it! She freaking gets it!"
    It takes so much damn work to "get it". As long as you allow yourself to be of victim mindset, you'll stay stuck on that hamster wheel forever. That hamster wheel is full of anger & control. Miserable life, if you ask me.
    Anywho, let me know what to wear for your award ceremony. That speech was definitely award worthy. Long, long overdue & you nailed it.
  7. Trappist

    Trappist Fapstronaut

    Good consideration OP.

    At an SAA meeting tonight someone took a 2nd X year chip and says that they had to go to the same extremes to stay sober as they had when they acted out. I’ve seen men get up and briefly run from a meeting if a newcomer shares too explicitly. So I’m keeping that need by some in mind.

    Mistakes vs addiction? Not sure that both mean the same thing.

    To your point, I’m glad my SO is kind.
    I’m sure some men may need to be cowpunched by their wife to listen? Those kind of fights are devastating to me though and to my SO.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  8. Banjaxed

    Banjaxed Fapstronaut

    Interesting thread OP

    I have had similar thoughts. I am a PA but my wife also had an EA (poss continuing) so I am dealing with my own betrayal. There is also a tendency for all PAs to be portrayed as 100% bad and SOs as 100% good and humans and relationships are far more complex than that. I am NOT seeking to belittle SOs here, or the effects of betrayal trauma.

    I think you have to remember that the posts on this site are but a microcosm of someone’s life. This may be the only safe place an SO can come and vent so you can get a very concentrated viewpoint. I see it in the SO’s responses to journals of PAs that are not their SOs - they can be incredibly supportive and compassionate whilst venting about their own SOs on their own threads.

    I think you have to take a slightly detached view of the internet these days :)
  9. Trappist

    Trappist Fapstronaut

    Interesting interview by Anne Blythe with Gary Wilson
    from BTR.ORG
    and may address parts of the OP's question?
    Deals with shame placement (my term)
    and other myths and facts sorting.

    Can't figure out how to embed...

    We are all thrown together here
    in all stages of recovery.
    Its as if we are a lawyer reading the law
    about the various pitfalls
    and responses that
    we can encounter.
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  10. @Trappist

    This was great! Thank you so much for sharing this, "In fact the victims are the victims", my thoughts exactly. If they haven't done any of these things or victimized people then there's no addiction or problem to begin with.
    HonestyMatters and Queenie%Bee like this.
  11. I agree I don't like to fight either but mistakes vs addiction I think is the main takeaway here that is an important distinction. I've made mistakes, some pretty huge ones and I struggle with mental issues from time to time now he's trying to treat that how one would treat an addiction and it's just not the same. While at the same time he will not even treat his actual addiction or try to do recovery.
    AngelofDarkness likes this.
  12. I don't have any addictions and I never have. I think that's why when I make a mistake or do something wrong I am honest about it and learn from it and treat the hurt of those I've wronged accordingly. I also learn and do better. Addicts don't learn from their so called "mistakes", that's why it's called acting out, there's no room for growth from that behavior.
  13. Trappist

    Trappist Fapstronaut

    Lying facilitates PA.
    So that is why honesty begins the process, as you noted elsewhere.

    Your actions not to get in the way of him seeing the consequences of his actions may seem like a circus balancing act, but it’s also called recovery when it becomes the path.

    @phuck-porn! Made such kind essential thoughts in your other thread, to which I agree wholeheartedly.
  14. Queen_Of_Hearts_13

    Queen_Of_Hearts_13 Fapstronaut

    I think it's a good topic to bring to the light Cass.

    The thing is, as others have said we are all in different stages, with different backgrounds, different levels of trauma, addiction, etc.

    As another member pointed out SO's can be positive on other PA journals and threads and be venting hard in their own journal as it's sometimes the only safe place they have in life.

    There are many factors to consider when it comes to PA's and SO's on the forum and how they react and comment:

    • How long have they been lying/hiding/acting out in their relationships and what length did they go to to protect their addiction?
    • Did they know prior to the relationship that porn was cheating to the SO, and if so, did they do it anyway instead of being honest with the SO?
    • When DDay happened, did they just "get sober" (aka quit porn with no recovery efforts) or put themselves fully into recovery to recover their own self and the relationship by owning their actions, changing their maladaptive defense mechanisms, and feeling remorse and empathy for their SO instead of continuing the abusive behaviors of gaslighting, and blaming their SO?
    • How many DDays have you given your partner? Are you still acting out or has everything been fully disclosed?
    • How long have you been decieving your partner? Time does make a huge difference in the level of trauma you give your partner
    • Have you been in therapy to address your addiction and root causes?
    • Have you gotten toxic people out of your life or are you still stuck in toxic behaviors?
    • Maturity level
    • Is the PA still in the brain fog or do they have clarity?
    • Are you honest with yourself and your partner? Being honest with yourself is a huge step in recovery.
    • SO's do you have any prior trauma, if so the SO has a higher chance of developing PTSD and Betrayal Trauma
    • If you are suffering PTSD/Betrayal Trauma you are going to suffer from reactions that happen before your rational brain catches it, so you have to work on grounding techniques, learning that even though you feel as though danger is there and your in a life or death situation you are safe. (Though if the trauma has been ongoing for a couple years your brain chemistry may be changed, indefinitely and this can be a lifelong struggle rather than acute trauma and you will have to do your best in learning positive coping skills).
    • Is your PA being supportive of your recovery or continuing to gaslight and blame you for their addiction?
    • How many times did you have DDays only for there to be more lies?
    • How many times since the last DDay have they lied and broken boundaries?
    • Did your PA get into therapy and work recovery or did they just "quit" porn to appease you and still overall are not a good partner?
    • How many times have you begged for the PA to stop hurting you only for them to continue to hurt you?
    • Are you in therapy and is your PA in therapy and is there couple therapy taking place?
    • Maturity level
    • Is your PA free of PMO yet not doing any recovery work?
    These are just some factors to think about when reading responses on Nofap.

    Everyone's story is different and sometimes we only hear from one side. We can't fully know each other's lives and experiences unless we as the members lay that out.

    But at the end of the day we all deserve the following:
    Being a Team
    Being Supported

    But I do say, if a PA or SO is not putting in effort, putting their head in the sand hoping this will go away and has no plan to get better, then they need to leave the relationship. It's not fair to the other person.

    I've been waiting 2.5 years for my husband to "get with the program" and as someone who has waited I can tell you it's just nicer if you leave if you don't plan to be serious and face the consequences to your actions. If you are dedicated to becoming the best version of yourself (both PA and SO) then you deserve nothing but support. If you are dedicated to running from your problems you deserve to have others point out the flaws in your thinking so you can become the best version of yourself and I think everyone at the end of the day wants to be healthy and connected. Sometimes some people need more guidance than others.

    Again, everyone has their own life experiences, and we can never know the full story... we only know what we have revealed in that thread or in that journal.
  15. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Yes, I tried to make it learn that I'm not referring to temporary tough love. I'm referring to an ongoing attitude of keeping a record of wrongs and constantly acting like your husband has to worship at your feet for the rest of his life to make up for his past. Some women just dont seem to have any intention of ever fully forgiving or letting go. They treat their husbands like children, and they also have expectations that are impossible to meet. They expect perfection from a flawed human who is incapable of that.

    I do get that, and I'm not really talking about those people. I'm talked about people who have been dealing with this for years and still act like their husbands have to walk on egg shells and be 100% perfect because of something they did years ago. And I'm talking about actual emotional and verbal abuse, not someone being temporarily angry for a while.

    That's a different story too, and not what I'm talking about. I dont expect women to forgive and forget and move on when their SO isn't even trying to be better. I'm talking about men who are trying their damndest to improve themselves and haven't had more than a couple slips in years, and their wives still treat them like they're cheating scum and like they have to offer them a sacrifice on an altar every morning or something to make up for it. That's ridiculous, and nobody deserves to have to live that way. Their wives are not perfect either, and I highly doubt they would enjoy having their mistakes brought up again and again, years later, with no ounce of moving on and forgiving.

    That's not a fair generalization. There are tons of people here who are learning from their mistakes and trying really really hard not to repeat them.
  16. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Again, I'm not talking about venting. At all. I've seen very very problematic views abs advice from SOs in other people's threads as well. They tend to 100% take the side of the wife, no matter what, and basically tell the guy that since he betrayed her, he now has to live like a slave in his own home and serve her indefinitely until she decides whether or not to forgive him. Which might be an appropriate reaction temporarily, but not for years. That's abusive and gross. I might still be mad at my husband for certain things, but I do my best to let go and I dont constantly lord his mistakes over him for the rest of his life. That's just not how I roll, and I think that's wrong.

    Yes, I do consider these factors. I've been here for quite a while as well. I'm not just reading a random thread from a person I know nothing about and making snap judgements. I've described very specific situations here, and I am speaking to men to tell them they dont deserve that kind of abuse.

    I agree. As I've said several times, I'm not talking about PAs who arent trying and dont give a crap.

    But similarly, if a wife is not trying to move in and forgive and forget, and is planning to hold onto her anger forever and constantly lord it over him that hes made mistakes, then she should leave, too, then. Because that's cruel.

    This is the entire point I've been making, so it seems like you agree.

    Agreed.... but I know abuse when I see it. If someone were to tell you their husband hits them, you dont need "the rest of the story." You know that's abuse. It doesnt matter what she did or how much the husband might be damaged or hurting, etc.
  17. @Castielle Not active addicts is what I mean, if they are in recovery or have recovered then they are learning but active addicts don't learn. That's what Gary said, they have to be clean for 60 to 90 days before they can begin to learn. I haven't seen any wives on here whose husband's have given 100% to their recovery and years after the wife is still berating them uncalled for, please give specific examples cuz I haven't seen em.
    Nugget9 and Queen_Of_Hearts_13 like this.
  18. Tis why I said acting out is not the same as making a mistake because it's an addiction, if he's acting out he is still in the addiction, still lying, and not recovering.
  19. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Well I think that's dumb. I've never been clean for 60 days, and I'm constantly learning and growing and trying my best.

    I absolutely have, many times, and I am far from being the only person who has seen it. And no, I will not give examples, because I've already said I'm not going to call out specific people.

    Okay, but that's not what this thread is referring to at all. I'm not talking about people who are still doing all of those things. I thought I made that clear, but I guess not.
  20. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @Castielle well said. There are people who use other's flaws to hold them in a lower state permanently. I do agree with @AnonymousAnnaXOXO a little bit as well. I was split when I read the thread that sparked this too.

    If a SO were to need a couple years to get over some really bad behaviour it would be crushing to me to have to wait through that healing. There is a built in impatience to PA already as well as the short term thinking that is part of our general culture. During that time or whatever amount of time I agree that the PA can't be a doormat for abuse, scorn, etc. Its ok to still have needs and to direct them and express them in healthy ways. @Castielle do you believe a marriage is a 50/50 partnership? I have a feeling that the way you answer that question and anyone who answers that question will shed light on this issue. I don't see this totally black and white because I think what you fundamentally believe relationships are or should be will bias your sympathy slightly. Anyways just some thoughts. They are a little rambling, it's early...

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