Pro-Choice Christian

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    I invite you to find out about Save the 1, an organization of victims of rape and children born of rape (the ones that you say should never have been born). One wrong does not fix the other. That's logic, not ideology.
  2. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    Educate yourself on Scholastic philosphy and you'll learn why we believe a human being receives his soul at the moment of conception. It's not a religious argument.

    Spirituality aside, I can mention a simple pointer from the earthly reality: at the moment of conception, the genetic map of the new human being comes to be and, left alone in the proper environment, this new human being will grow to full stature, age, and die a natural death.
  3. Tatendrang

    Tatendrang Fapstronaut

    I'll have to disagree. The soul is a religious concept itself.
    You could also argue that a heterosexual man and a woman left alone in the proper environment - without condoms for example - will eventually produce offspring. Therefore condoms = murder. That's essentially the same argument.

    Your DNA = human idea also deserves shattering. As you know we're now able to synthesize DNA and inject it into an embryo in a way that will make the new human have that DNA. So let's say I generate a human DNA sequence on a computer and plan to grow a human with it. But then some other guy comes in and deletes the file. I have no means of sequencing the exact same DNA again. Did that man commit murder? According to you he did!
  4. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    Certain aspects are religious, but the concept isn't.
    It was extensively discussed by Pythagoras, Heraclitus, Plato, and Aristotle, as well as by Epicurianism and Stoicism. Theology often borrows from philosophy and metaphysics in this aspect.

    You are oversimplifying but you are on the right track. The letter Humani Generis was a formal Catholic condemnation of all contraception as being intrinsically evil, not for religious reasons alone, but on a logical ethical foundation inherent to the proper order of procreation and life.

    I have a friend who has a doctorate in genetics from Purdue and a postgrad in Bioethics and he often gives talks on the ethics and moral problems of IVF and genetic manipulation, and they are plenty.

    But your example speaks of information, not a zygote, that is, a living human being in its first stage of development. Even then, from the standpoint of subjective moral culpability, if the person deletes that DNA file with the intent of killing someone before they are born, then their intention imputes them.
    Tatendrang likes this.
  5. Tatendrang

    Tatendrang Fapstronaut

    Okay I expected you'll fight these reductions and not accept them despite their absurdity. Whatever, let's go further because I have one more: The first cell of your body happens to develop not in your mother's womb but in your grandmother's. It's the ovum which will eventually become you. Shouldn't it receive the same protection as you suggested for embryos? Shouldn't we make it compulsory for women to spend all of their fertile years pregnant? By choosing not to breed, they effectively kill their child which would otherwise be born.
  6. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    The ovum doesn't have my DNA and also an ovum is not a living human being but a cell.

    About the second statement, just consider the menstrual cycle. A woman's body prepares for pregnancy, but also naturally discards the ovum if it is not fertilized.

    That being said, there's a reason why contraception, even as a volition, is morally questionable, as I mentioned above. Procreation is natural, and sex is ordered towards it. So to choose to have sex but to maim the sexual act with contraception is questionable. Abstaining or remaining celibate is also a perfectly valid option.
  7. IbrahimViking

    IbrahimViking Fapstronaut

    If you think that even one child deserves a mother who didn't want him or her, who will abuse (not even always with malicious intent) the child inevitably, regularly and desperately, because it's a heavy burden for someone who didn't even figure out the whole contraception business (again, not because she's necessarily a bad person), then you have a long way until you understand the message Christ would have you learn.
    What feels like love, is. What doesn't feel like love, cannot be it.
  8. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    I think murder is wrong.

    There's adoption, for example.

    And love has very little to do with feeling.
  9. Super Mike James

    Super Mike James Fapstronaut

  10. Yngwie will never die!
    Super Mike James likes this.
  11. Tatendrang

    Tatendrang Fapstronaut

    Well it has a half of it. And the embryo also doesn't have your eyes for many weeks. Or intestines.
    Natural doesn't mean good. Sometimes we're naturally drawn to kill our enemies for example. That ovum could have been the next Da Vinci or Mozart!
    I have to admit you're more consistent in your views than most.
    Is it? Even if it means that some ova don't get to turn into happy children dancing in the rain?
  12. ForABetterLife20

    ForABetterLife20 Fapstronaut

    I agree with this.

    Let's just try and love each other cause dang, we really don't have much other choice.
  13. vxlccm

    vxlccm Fapstronaut

    Well put, @SuperFan.

    Another thing I'll say is you can't be moral and an abortionist. That goes far beyond Christianity, which of course does sanction only the highest morals. And therein lies the real dilemma: abortion is flatly wrong. There is no other way to judge issues except as right and wrong. The utmost real danger in the pride of the false philosophy of 'choice' is that foists an amoral ideal into the public sphere as if it were justifiable or acceptable. It is neither.

    @pornnomore18 Here is the tyranny of toleration! Poison within should not go unaddressed. It is not moral to look the other way against immorality.

    The cultural hive-mind of socialists everywhere creating a hostile environment, out of their pride, for non-subscribers to their moral blindness, that will be the downfall of all civilization and rightly subject individuals and societies to the judgements of God.
    Castielle likes this.
  14. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    In order to love someone, you have to be willing to speak the truth to them. "Love" doesn't mean we just accept everyone's worldview as equally valid. Truth without love is rigid legalism. Love without truth is empty emotionalism.
    Hros, Castielle and vxlccm like this.
  15. SuperFan

    SuperFan Fapstronaut

    Preventing a life from being created in the first place is very, very different than destroying a life that has already been conceived. This shouldn't even need to be said.
    brilliantidiot and vxlccm like this.
  16. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    That's basically what I was going to say. Technically yes, of course you can be a Christian and be pro-choice. Just as you can be a Christian living with your unmarried partner or doing drugs or lusting after women in porn. That doesn't make abortion right.
    brilliantidiot likes this.
  17. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I was actually curious about this the other day, so I looked into what scholars have to say about the seeming contradiction between "do not murder" and God commanding murder so often. This article helped shed some light on things for me. As Ray Comfort says, whenever I find a mistake within the Bible, it's always my mistake.

    Funnily enough, this article also challenged my previously firm anti-death-penalty stance. I'm still against it, but I'm a bit unsure of whether or not that's the only right way.
  18. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Boy oh boy, that's some extremely dangerous ideology you have. You base your entire way of thought and decision making on feelings?

    I don't know about you, but I don't think it feels very pleasant to have to tell my friend that they are going to spend an eternity without God if they don't repent from their sin and accept Jesus as their Savior. So by your logic, would it not be loving of me to tell them the truth? Because it doesn't feel good?

    Secondly, your initial argument is already ridiculous. You have no way of knowing how a child's life will turn out. Plenty of people with messed up childhoods are still happy to be alive and to have been given the chance to live. Taking that life because you think it would be better for them is NOT your decision to make, or anyone else's. You do not know the future. You have no idea the plans God has for that child. Trying to argue that Jesus would be pro-abortion? One of the most absurd things I've heard in a while.
    brilliantidiot likes this.
  19. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I would agree with that, mostly.

    But I think it is important to remind ourselves -- any of us who are pro-life -- that most pro-choice individuals really are trying to do what they think is good for others. They truly believe they are fighting for women's rights, and their desire to stand up for others is admirable. Their fight is just incredibly misplaced, and unfortunately most people are extremely uneducated about what abortion actually entails. Or what pregnancy actually entails, for that matter.

    It's very unfortunate, and extremely hard to watch this pro-choice mentality being ingrained into the brains of children before they are even educated enough to know what abortion is and what they are actually advocating for. But it's always important to remember that the fight is with Satan, with the evil acts. Not necessarily with the person advocating for something they think is going to help people.

    By the way, I'm not saying this as an attack toward you, vxlccm. I don't think that's what you were arguing, I'm just clarifying. It can be so easy to see pro-choice people as enemies or evil at times, at least for me sometimes, but I don't fault them for being deceived. It mostly just makes me sad. I'd love to see their heart for justice and standing up for the rights of the oppressed directed toward unborn babies facing infanticide. That would be a much more useful place for that energy.
    vxlccm likes this.

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