Question for atheists

Check out Jeremiah 19 which I failed to quote in my post. Zech, as I said, fails to mention the field and the children of israel. Neither are identical to mathew.

 

l'am atheist and l do the same question for your.

 

Jeremiah 19 doesn't mention 30 pieces of silver, nor a potters field - the only point of comparison is a potter/pot. So you think 'go and buy a clay pot from the potter' corresponds to 'buy the potters field' ?
Dude, this is ridiculous. You are trying to twist scripture so Matthew is correct, as many others have tried - and failed. Both Augustine and Jerome acknowledged Matthew simply got his facts wrong.

 

And what the heck is a potters field anyway? Why would a potter have a field? Were potters so rich that they had valuable land just lying around? Why would the Sanhedrin want to spend the money on said potters field? The whole issue, combined with Matthews mix up, regarding a scripture which is irrelevant to the situation, is just completely random.

 

I do not know if i am an atheist. If it is meant by not believing in a old man sitting on a cloud surrounded by childs with trumpets or menat by not beliving in superpowerfull humanlike divine characters.. possibly.
If there is a god-concept like "outside of the reality" or the goddess dreaming the universe that would be another thing to think.
Somewhere i did read "you shall not make a picture of god". Oh, dear. You can not. If you have seen god, you knwo you cant even explain as every single word would corrupt the image.

After all I m not the one who blindly follows a preachers word. i accept thre is a lot of wisdom in the so called holy books, no matter if bible, thora, quran, bhagavad gita, vedic words, etc. The essence often is comparable:
10 laws or kants categorical imperative or crowleys "do what thee willst, love is the law"
the permanent ongoing inner refinement (which btw is the real meaning of "dschihad", not what some assholprayer saying)
urge for wisdom
staying focussed

So it is quite simple: Philosophy and communication. Empathy can be helpfull too.

 

I'll list a few more options. I'm not a biblical scholar so I'm reluctant to choose one on the possibiity of misleading you, so I'll provide them and you can pick.
-Mathew is referring to a spoken, traditional prophecy that the Jews would have known of but that we don't (they had great many of these if my memory is correct).
-Mathew combines several passages from Zech and Jeremiah, crediting the greater prophet (Jeremiah) as was the tradition.
-If a scribe was writing in shorthand, it would have been a simple matter of subsituting Ιριου for Ζριου. (I don't find this likely as only Jeremiah mentions the purchase of a field)
-The hebrew bible was divided into three parts, law, writings, and prophets. The scrolls were referred to by the first book, in this case, Jeremaiah. (I imagine as in, the scroll of Jeremiah). (Again I find this unlikely as only Jeremiah mentions the field).

Here is an excerpt from a study bible on how Jeremiah's passage is related:

Spoiler

The bulk of the words in the citation (vv. 9-10) are from Zechariah 11:12-13, but the content is also closely related to Jeremiah 19:1-13, which is a prophecy of judgment for the shedding of innocent blood (Mt. 27:4) that describes Topheth as the "Valley of Slaughter" (Jer. 19:6), a burial ground (Jer. 19:11). Matthew reveals in Judas's and the priest's actions a fulfillment of the prophecies of Zechariah and Jeremiah, inasmuch as Judas's betrayal represents the betrayal of the Good Shepherd by the nation of Israel - especially that of its leadership, who handed him over (v. 26; the same Greek word translated "betray") to be crucified. This betrayal by the nation is in turn the ultimate expression of the pattern of apostasy, unbelief, and rejection of God's sovereign claim that characterized Israel throughout its history and was expressed in the days of Jeremiah and Zechariah. Judas's "Field of Blood" (v. 8) thus stands as a warning of the coming judgment on the house of Israel.

Its a burial ground I believe, could be wrong. In the OT it may have literally been a potters field I honestly don't know.

You seem to be attempting to find a single prophecy that you can use to discredit the other 329 of them. As I've said, unless you can conclusively disprove all of them, you are wasting your time.

 

Im not the one claiming conclusive proof about anything, that's you. You are saying a) this is a prophecy which was b) fulfilled by Jesus which PROVES a) the OT reference WAS a messianic prophecy and b) Jesus IS the messiah.
Ok, lets do another one - maybe you do a better job of defending this, who knows?
Matt 27:35-36 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
Psalm 22:18 They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.
For your reference:

1. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2. O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3. But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4. Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5. They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6. But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8. He trusted on the LORD[a] that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9. But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11. Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12. Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13. They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16. For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26. The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the LORD for a generation.
31. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this

So i have a few questions:
1) I cant find ANY reference to Psalms in commonly held views among biblical scholars regarding the greater/lesser prophets. Are the Psalms prophecy, yes or no - if YES, why are they not on the lists of prophets?, if NO, why do you uphold they are prophetic?
2) This is in the 1st person - They part MY garments, not HIS, the only person who can say MY garments is Jesus himself, but it cant be Jesus for a number of reasons, eg the speaker of Psalms 22 finally receives gods blessing, whereas Jesus died a ghastly and humiliating death... ?
3) Which parts of the text tell me beyond reasonable doubt that the person in question here, the owner of the clothes which are divided, is the messiah? If I was a 1st century Jew, and I read this (not likely literacy rates were 5%), what would tell me this is without doubt about the coming messiah?

Over to you...

 

I suppose it could be viewed like that, notice I also said:

Also notice that I never said you "claimed conclusive proof", I said:

David is considered a prophet. The psalms are not grouped in the books of prophets because (I imagine) they are not as direct a prophecy. If you read the book, you will see that many of them come from the human point of view, whereas with the prophetic books the I is often God.

There are two ways that I know of to view this. One is as one of the exceptions to what I said above (many of them come from the human point of view, whereas with the prophetic books the I is often God). There other one is that David's own experience (which he is writing about in the psalm) merges into a prophecy of his future descendant, Jesus.

Jesus too recieved glory, after His redemption.

In this particular one, I'm not aware of anything.

 

And what other verses of Psalms 22 are messianic prophecy?
Ok I've done enough. You asked me for alleged prophecies which I consider bogus and I've provided them.
Your turn: show me a nailed on, irrefutable, unambiguous prophecy, 3 criteria:
1) from a book of the greater/lesser prophets
2) is clearly, unambiguously in a passage describing the Messiah
3) was fulfilled by Jesus of Nazareth
Go!

 

Lol why do you keep arguing about this? Harry Potter also fulfilled prophecy yet it doesn't make him real.

 

I'm reluctant to play this game, primarily for the reason I already stated, that its not only the strength of the individual prophecies but the numbers, and also partly because I'm sure someone has written an online article that can be quoted about most of them. If you are just curious, I am not aware of any prophecy I don't believe. Remember, there are not just messianic prophecies, there are around 1600 prophecies of other things, such as the fates of cities. Check out Daniel's prophecies about Babylon to Persia
I don't have time at this moment (I can do it later) to go over it myself but here and here are some articles that give evidence for the book being written before the events. The first one is more technical.

 

How does it feel to be in 2020, using a chronological calendar since the birth of Christ ?

 

“your rights stop at my nose”

 

There are two different sorts of atheists, generally. There are the atheists who don't believe in God, and there are atheists who don't believe in God and want everyone to know they don't. For the first group, they probably do not fall too far away from the morals they were brought up with, even if they don't believe in a divine arbiter of those values generally they still follow the morals they were raised with. For the second group it usually seems they don't have morals because they have embraced atheism as a means to fuel their own narcissism. They might have some morals to be fair, but not many.

And to be clear, I'm not saying atheists are always narcissists, all I am saying is some use their atheism to be narcissistic. Not every Methodist is Jim Jones either.

 

It's easier than to count all the years of the Earth.

 

Just follow the Law. That defines what is right and what is wrong.

 

By reading some passages from the old testament I totally changed my mind about christianity. So many weird and genocidal stories obsessed with death and sin. What about all the thousands of other religions? Not to speak of all the thousands christian denominations? If the bible is a holy book, why can there be so many interpretations and opinions of so many scriptures? A holy book should not be confusing and contradicting on so many levels.

Why did god create hell for the creatures that did not believe in him and have had cirtical thought and think for themselves? Does his creation deserve eternal punishment for believing the wrong things and thinking critical? Did he not gave us a brain and taught us to think critically?

Eternal punishment in eternal hellfire for finite "crimes" on earth for someone who is atheist, muslim or hindu or born into the wrong culture is one of the sickest shit I could think off. Some people are born as a psychopath or some other crazy mental illness and don't have any concept of right and wrong. Like it's their fault? What about homosexuals, do they deserve the most painful thing like burning for enernity, while god created them that way? The bible says even a liar should be thrown into the lake of fire forever if he does not repent. That's even worse than the worst totalitarian dictarorial regime on earth. "Kiss my ass and beg for forgiveness or burn" Totally saddsitic.

What about the tribes that never heard of the gospel? I used to be a christian, but then realialized the stories in bible are twisted and perverted as fuck. Noachs ark for example is totally not possible (millions of animals on a wooden ark, how much food was on the ark to feed all the animals? Did the ark have different climates on board for different animal species? Did the animals travel thousands of miles to reach the ark? Where did all the water come from and how did the marine life survive? But many other dozens of questions can be raised from this myth.

And when Jesus raised from the dead, some of the people supposedly raised from the grave. There is zero evidence from that happening outside the bible. Does the bible not say that the murderer on the cross would be forgiven? While someone who did not believe in Jesus and had decent good life deserves eternal hell for simply not believing in him?

The story of Adam and Eve is also as crazy as it's get? Why place a tree in the middle of the garden of Eden, place a vicious deceiving snake in it and seduce them into eating the apple? It's like god wanted us to sin and had created us with an immunesystem, bowels and teeth. Systems made to not die, while there was no death in the garden of Eden.

What about lions, dinosaurs and other predators? They were "created" to kill from the start. It's like god needed sin for his creation to work? If he is omnipotent and knows everything, why the fuck would he place that tree there if he already knew Eve would eat the damn apple, causing all the pain and suffering in the word?

Don't even get me started on starlight hundreds of lightyears away. Noway the earth is only 6000 years old.

 

Yes, it is hard to comprehend that people actually believe this stuff.
Something ive been looking into, the origins of life on earth. Turns out it was these weird looking things:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote
They were the ONLY life on earth for 3.8 billion years. Just these single cell organisms, reproducing more single cell organisms...for 3.8 billion years.
And this is part of God's great plan.
WTF?!?!?

 

I don't want to get into a debate again, but you know that not all Christians are new earthers, right? I'm a Christian and I agree that the world is 4.54 billion years old.