question for christians

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by BravelyKegger, Apr 12, 2019.

  1. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    @need4realchg it's okay for people to discuss theology... I'm sorry if it appears to you that we are arrogantly arguing, but that's certainly not the case on my part. I'm just trying to have a discussion. If you don't want to participate, that's fine, but you don't need to condemn everyone who wants to have a discussion as if we are wrong for doing so.
     
  2. Toomuchh

    Toomuchh Fapstronaut

    270
    248
    43
    Did i travel back in time
     
  3. need4realchg

    need4realchg Fapstronaut

    @Castielle i understand. I was talking to Ethan and solitary scribe in the context it looked like we were doing as the Pharisees.
     
  4. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I didn't mean it in the sense that he sinned.
     
    need4realchg likes this.
  5. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Not sure about you, but wife beating is one of my favorite hobbies.
     
    need4realchg likes this.
  6. need4realchg

    need4realchg Fapstronaut


    I died laughing... then thought for those who don’t excel at literary skills the sarcasm will “ fall on deaf ears.”
     
  7. Michaeldra

    Michaeldra Fapstronaut

    95
    229
    33
    Does that follow the ancient church, actually when doing pilgrimage to Jerusalem get a cross tatto
     
  8. EthanW.

    EthanW. Fapstronaut

    205
    441
    63
    So I've actually been wondering that. How is it that Jesus performed actions that were traditionally associated with working yet still kept the Sabbath holy? @need4realchg is proposing that congregation in the temple neutralized the actions?
     
  9. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    To answer your question, you would have to understand what is meant by keeping the sabbath holy. Before the laws of Moses, most nations and religions did not have a particular day in which they did not work, or a day specific for worship. The pagans may have has a calendar date dedicated to certain gods, but generally speaking they did not do it once a week. God wanted the Israelite's to set a specific day in the week where they were not focused on work, but rather worship and family. Keeping the sabbath day holy meant that your focus was on God and reconnecting with him on that day. He knew that people would become overly focused on worldly things like wealth or career, so He wanted to make sure that it was implanted in the law that people would have a day where man can rest.

    With that being said, the purpose of the sabbath was forgotten and people began to focus on the sabbath rather then on God. The focus became the law, not the law giver.
     
  10. need4realchg

    need4realchg Fapstronaut

    Thanks Ethan,

    Sorry if I suggested going to temple "neutralized" otherwise known as law-breaking functions. Solitary scribe is also correct about how the sabbath "de-evolved" into a focus on the law instead of the law-giver. Sorry for the long response, I want to contextualize God's Law better.

    Let me start at the beginning:
    God's law began in heaven, not on earth--(Lucifer and the fallen angels were perfect until sin was discovered in Him; that sin was pride, correct? How did they determine sin without a Law? Well, this points to that there is and was a Law in Heaven. This is how we know God's Law is eternal, because it is as everlasting as God Himself. It doesn't change and those who break it will be broken (extinguished).

    Adam and Eve were told not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
    Of course, they did, and then they and all their offspring acquired the knowledge between good and evil, or what we'd call Law, or Sin.
    I believe that knowledge was immediately manifested in how they sensed this new feeling of "shame" as they discovered their nakedness even though there was no tablets of stone yet showing them. God was revealing His knowledge to them, now they were accountable, responsible for what was good and bad. Good so far?

    Now a little further in Genesis it is inferred God shared His plan to save Adam and Eve through the promise of a savior; To demonstrate the finality of sin and its penalty on his Son, God causes the first death the pair have ever witnessed. God sacrifices a lamb to show what they must do for their sin, and with the skin he clothed them (lambskin). Here the sacrificial system was estalibshed (a lamb for a sin offering). Ironically, Abel, sacrificed his lamb accordingly, but Cain does not; and the murder of Abel causes a consequence (a mark on Cain's forehead). Cain knew he was wrong but choose it anyway, again showing God's law was already in effect; and God executed judgment righteously because Cain knew good and evil; but choose evil.

    By the time of Noah, men's hearts were only on wicked continually; Noah is given a method to save those who are willing. Here we see the re-introduction of the dietary laws first described in the garden of Eden, laws that are often mis-attributed to the Jews. Here God selected specific animals for human consumption vs. global preservation. (2x2 vs 7x7). After the flood Noah is again reminded on the clean animals, and he is to use the clean ones to make sacrifices. Peter's vision in Acts after the resurrection shows us that people are not to be called unclean (as they were in Jesus' time); but it the vision doesn't appear to address actual dietary law(s) according to the interpretation that Cornelius provides. (ie Peter doesn't actually eat Cornelieus lol), right?

    Long after the flood, the law of adultery was also en force and executed in Sodom and Gomorrah, in spite of these people living long before the ten commandments.

    We see the law of the Sabbath was introduced in the week of creation, and was not restricted to Jews, but was intended for all of Man. In the beginning Sabbath was designed for humans and their creator as @SolitaryScribe says.

    Clearly that didn't stick. Just like with adultery, mankind (like me) felt--well if I just look at her I'm not committing adultery with porn... (tongue in cheek /pun intended). Yeah, that isn't even close to what God's law says. Hence why Jesus could reprimand the folks who watched porn (of their day) as adulterers.

    So is true with Sabbath; lots of man-made traditions accompanied Sabbath-keeping that were men's inventions, not according to the Law. The pharisees came up with rules about how far a person could walk on the sabbath so as to not constitute work; they came up with rules that focused on the physical activity of a person, not their dedication to God or His Way of Love. These things Christ ridiculed and "broke". That's what I was referring to by saying Christ broke "tradition" he did not break the Law.

    Christ DID honor the Sabbath the way it was intended, healing, teaching, preaching, congregating, eating, sharing, praying, spending time with God in nature, doing miracles, etc.

    PS. By the way our president breaks a lot of traditions today and (as far as we know) doesn't break the Law. lol, not to be political here, but it's that kind of the brouhaha that Christ did.

    Sorry for the long post
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  11. EthanW.

    EthanW. Fapstronaut

    205
    441
    63
    Interesting, and thank you @need4realchg for your contextualized answer. So then let me ask, isn't the ceasing of physical work necessary before you can begin to walk in holiness with God? It should be more about the law-giver than about the law, I agree, but if what Christ did didn't fit a criteria for labor in the natural sense, then isn't there a standard in not conforming to expectations of physical labor in the commandment?

    The Bible even says: "You have six days each week for your ordinary work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the LORD your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work." (Exodus 20:9-10)

    So there was a differentiation between rest that is necessary to mark an aspiration toward keeping something holy, and that of traditional, everyday work. Because that would make sense then, why harvesting some corn to sate hunger was not breaking the commandment, but why working for a wage would be, right?
     
    need4realchg likes this.
  12. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Because working for a wage is not an emergency matter, hunger however is. God gave us 6 days to focus on working for wage, and he is only asking for 1 day dedicated to him. Seems like a very fair deal if you ask me.
     
    EthanW. and need4realchg like this.
  13. need4realchg

    need4realchg Fapstronaut

    Yes. Cessation from physical work implies that you are trusting in God for the wage you don’t earn on the rest day.

    The examples of manna falling in the desert happened daily except on sabbath. Friday’s portion was said to be double so that no work on sabbath was necessary. The only thing necessary was to prepare for the rest.
     
    EthanW. likes this.
  14. Latebloomer2017

    Latebloomer2017 Fapstronaut

    5
    14
    3
    Sure I'll explain it to you, because you "believers" cherry pick the parts you like and the parts you don't. Then apply it to your everyday lives. I also suppose Exodus 21 wasn't meant for you either.
     
  15. Latebloomer2017

    Latebloomer2017 Fapstronaut

    5
    14
    3
    it's so funny how you yourself are pointing out your own theology's contradictions, but don't see it because you're a slave to the imaginary.
     
  16. Latebloomer2017

    Latebloomer2017 Fapstronaut

    5
    14
    3
    It has nothing to do with rules on owning people as property, rules on what people do with their bodies and their sexuality?? Of course it does, because your biblical god never saw a fault in any of his first rules. The only reason he made the new covenant was so that you would obey him, seeing as his first "creations" had failed him. And I'm not trying to be anything. I'm simply pointing out whats cleary written in your book. Yet many like you like to make excuses for what's really written. Christianity is the religion of excuses. It never takes any responsibility for any of its claims.
     
  17. brilliantidiot

    brilliantidiot Fapstronaut

    732
    7,740
    123
    not exactly, because of free will
     
  18. need4realchg

    need4realchg Fapstronaut

    I think you fundamentally do not understand the word “covenant”.

    Have you ever bought a house ? Then you made a covenant.

    Ever taken out a student loan ? Then you had a covenant.

    Ever got married?
    Then you had a covenant.

    Ever bought a car on credit ?
    Then you had a covenant.

    If you have had more than one any of these... was it to make you obedient to it ?

    It was never created in order for us to to be obedient, but to show his contract with us.

    God made covenants with many ppl including Joseph, Abraham, Adam, Hagar and Ishmael, etc; some Kings and was recognized by world leaders; Egypt Assyria, Mesopotamia, and Rome. King Nebuchadnezzar 2 shows up in the historic record of the Mesopotamian cylinders, as does Cyrus the great of Persia and king artaxeres.
     
  19. Latebloomer2017

    Latebloomer2017 Fapstronaut

    5
    14
    3
    A covenant is a type of arrangement or pledge between two entities and in order to honor it both parties should obey the rules agreed upon. You're the one that's confused about the definition because you feel you have a "covenant" with something you've failed to demonstrate even exist. What does it matter if he's made many covenants with other figures of the bible. Were talking about how people dismiss certain things of the bible yet obey the parts they like. This thread is good example of that. How people twist bible verses in order for it to fit their own perspective. Not even members of your own religion can agree upon what's written in the bible. It's vague, misleading, and immoral. Faith is not a reliable path to truth
     
  20. Latebloomer2017

    Latebloomer2017 Fapstronaut

    5
    14
    3
    Besides the fact that according to the bible, god gave humans free will, the bible is still full of verses about how in the end all he wants is for us to obey him
     

Share This Page