Recovery can hurt you.

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by Carbon Icon, Dec 3, 2019 at 10:43 AM.

How long have you been on NOFAP and are you Cured?

  1. Under 1 Year . I"m cured

    5 vote(s)
    8.8%
  2. 1-2 years I'm Cured

    3 vote(s)
    5.3%
  3. 2-3 years I'm Cured

    2 vote(s)
    3.5%
  4. 3 + Years . I"m cured

    1 vote(s)
    1.8%
  5. Under 1 Year, I"m still Struggling

    22 vote(s)
    38.6%
  6. 1-2 Years I'm still Struggling

    11 vote(s)
    19.3%
  7. 2-3 Years . I'm still Struggling

    2 vote(s)
    3.5%
  8. 3+ Years I'm still Struggling

    11 vote(s)
    19.3%
  1. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    If you give anyone enough cocaine over a long enough period of time they will become addicted. However if you get those same people clean and detoxed some of them will never touch cocaine again, others will make the insane choice (while sober) to take more cocaine. This is the difference between someone with a bad habit vs. a true addict.

    The addict will go back to his/her drug of (no) choice no matter how bad the consequences might be.

    If you have a bad porn (sex) habit, nofap will help you get clean/detoxed and you can go on with life.

    If you have a sex addiction that manifests itself in porn use, compulsive masturbation, affairs, prostitutes or any other sexually destructive behaviour nofap has very little to offer you and may in fact be equivalent to pointing a loaded gun at your head.

    Why? Because sex addiction is a progressive and deadly disease. The brains reward system requires a higher dose for the same results. You may start with vanilla porn but will eventually find it insufficient and cross boundaries into extreme fetish porn. Over time you will find yourself using pornography that fills you with disgusts and self hatred. Over time you will find yourself acting out in more extreme ways. Massage parlours, prostitutes, voyeurism, etc. etc. Over time you will take riskier and riskier behaviour. Acting out at work, while driving, in public, etc. Over time you will isolate yourself more and more, from friends, family, colleagues. Over time you will have nothing left accept your addiction and a ruined life. Over time you will find yourself suicidal.

    If you think you might be a true addict then you need to realize that nofap is likely to lead you further down the path of self destruction. You must deal with the underlying issue which causes you to be an addict. A spiritual sickness caused by childhood trauma. I'm not talking about religion when I say spiritual sickness. I'm talking about your choices being driven by underlying unconscious fear and your behaviours not matching up with your inner subconscious code of conduct.

    The addict must embark on a journey of spiritual discovery, healing and service to obtain recovery.
     
    Shadyyy, Arnuld, npc444 and 7 others like this.
  2. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    Wow, this post was basically ignored and I'm not surprised. I've been on and off of this site for around 5 years and it has not done me any good. In fact I would argue that it has done me some harm. I was led to believe that if I only try hard enough I can quite porn on my own, or maybe with an AP. It's bullshit. Take a look around these forums... where is the sobriety? Where are the recovered addicts? Not here. Most people on here are just crying out for help, or just spewing bullshit and bad advice.

    If you have an addict brain and your drug of (no) choice is porn, you will not be able to quit under your own will power. No matter what. That's what being an addict is all about. You cannot quit on your own will power, no matter how badly you want to, no matter how bad the possible consequences. This is a very unpopular opinion on this site because most people don't want to face the truth. Everyone want's an easier, softer way... but if you go out and talk to hardcore recovered addicts they will tell you there is one way to get clean.

    12 step

    So if you're on this site and you think you're a true addict, close this tab and google sexaholics anonymous and find a meeting near you.
     
    Renewed_soul and 47Vision like this.
  3. FY_33

    FY_33 Fapstronaut

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    I trust doctor more actually. People recoveries is not linear
     
    Mrmohager likes this.
  4. It's TIME to STOPPP

    It's TIME to STOPPP Fapstronaut

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    nofap does not make you a better person. It gives you time and experience, which you may harness the power to become a greater person.

    BTW: It is kind of like religion, if you don't believe it, it just won't work.
     
  5. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    [QUOTE="

    BTW: It is kind of like religion, if you don't believe it, it just won't work.[/QUOTE]

    Actually many addicts have religion and it just doesn't work. 12 step requires only that you believe that you are not the most powerful force in the universe...shouldn't be to hard unless your a complete egomaniac...and it will work.
     
  6. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

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    @Carbon Icon

    Hi Carbon. I get you wanted feedback.

    Your counter says you have 45 days in. Excellent. When I quit porn, there were no counters. I counted months, all the way to one year. I think the hard 90 is a very useful exercise, and tool. It has two, main, positive, effects in my mind, if done correctly: 1) it helps to bend the brain back to a state that is closer to normal than when using; that state has less highs, less lows, and misses porn consumption far less, or, not at all, and teaching the brain not to miss it--that it can live, perfectly fine, well balanced, without it, is very useful. 2) The hard 90 can teach the addict to believe what I call the impossible thought: I can live without it. That is a hard thought for many addicts to think, but they have to think it before they get free.

    I am afraid I must agree with Gabe Deem that porn addiction requires no underlying psychological problems, or spiritual problems, to develop. A porn addict may have underlying problems, and may use porn to avoid them, deal with them, self medicate, distance them from his immediate thoughts, but, porn addiction forms from repeated dopamine highs, whether one had underlying problems, or not. It is a trained, conditioned, condition, even if, when we do it, we do not understand we are doing it.

    I quit alone, without an AP or AA. Honestly, at the time I quit, the concepts of using an AP to quit was not one that was widely accepted, and AA as a method of quitting, was, also, not widely accepted, as, back then, as now, what you and I call "porn addiction" is not accepted by the psychological majority as an "addiction". I can assure you I never thought that quitting was easy. When I quit, for days, possibly months, the thought I had was: "This feels like dying. I feel like I am dying. This is the worst thing I have ever felt, in my life. But, if I have to feel this, every day, all day, for the rest of my life, I will feel it, if feeling it is what I have to feel to not use porn." There were not a lot of people talking about "quitting porn for life" in those days. This place focused on challenges, and the hard 90 is an extension of a challenge method to quit. I don't think the challenges are especially helpful, as the mindset must be quitting for life, but the hard 90 is moving in the right direction. Overcoming the addiction requires not using for long enough to quit wanting to use. The idea of "quitting wanting to use" is a thought addicts find almost impossible to think, but they have to think it to quit.

    I have heard some people in the forums embrace the AA model as a positive force in their plan on quitting. Maybe it works for some. I never tried it. For me, understanding the brain science behind the problem was what opened my eyes. I have no underlying problems that I used porn to cope with; I used it because I loved the neurological reaction it produced, even though I did not understand that was what I was getting from it, or why I liked it. When I, finally, understood that I was not addicted to "porn", but, rather, addicted to using porn to achieve a neurological reaction, I knew the thing I had to quit using was that neurological high, which can be described, among other things, as a dopamine high and endogenous opioid high. All addictions happen in the brain, and, if they end, they end in the brain.

    As for the 12 step process, it might work for people. However, I got clean and did not use it. I never ever had the thought I was the most powerful being in the universe, or the illusion that I controlled my reality: I don't. We like to think we do, but we don't. There are things more powerful than us, and if one is a porn addict, porn is more powerful. I have no issues with AA, but I am very cognizant that AA came into existence anywhere from 60-80 years prior to the neuroscience that explains this addiction, and, frankly almost that long before this existence came into existence, with the invention of High Speed Internet Porn, which, by the way, is only addictive for a relatively small minority of the population. Here it looks like a huge problem, because everyone identifies it, here, as a problem, but, most of the world does not.

    For me, the biggest trick in quitting porn, was becoming self aware, and recognizing how I was using porn to achieve a dopamine high. After that, it was still incredibly hard, but doable, but, to be successful, I had to know what I was using to get high, and therefore what I was quitting using to get high.

    Not sure I agree with the concept of porn addiction for life. Maybe that is the best model for substance addictions. Not saying I can use it again, but, choosing not to use it is an easy choice for me, now.

    Carbon, if AA is working for you, use it. But I do think that embracing it is not porn that is addictive, but that very powerful, and in nature, naturally occurring, dopamine rush, in response to sexual thoughts, that is what every addict here is actually addicted to.

    William/WilliamOneAndDone/1ANDDONE/Will I AM

    I wish you the very best in all things, and have absolute confidence you will succeed.
     
  7. Ogikubo

    Ogikubo Fapstronaut

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    Most of us are perfectly aware that nofap is not some kind of miraculous place. Secondly, while some people indeed go onto so-called "worse" porn, others are perfectly fine with their vanilla stuff. If I were still getting a daily dose of porn, it would be softcore style. And that's after being addicted to porn for a good 4+ decades. I never sought out anything that filled me with disgust and hatred. And I've never engaged in risky behaviour. And I don't think I'm on the spectrum for suicide. I agree that seeking help is really important, which I have done. It's been really essential to my recovering from a PMO addiction. Nofap was my first refuge from porn. I owe it a lot.
     
  8. modernstore99

    modernstore99 Fapstronaut

    I have many disagreements with NoFap, but I think titling your thread this way is a bit of an overreaction.

    For an overview on porn and addiction, check out Your Brain on Porn. Imo, they put the ideas, data, and science into better words than anyone else.

    https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/mis...-has-not-prepared-your-brain-for-todays-porn/

    Also the founder of that website, Gary Wilson, sums things up and looks at the bright side of the whole issue in this video.



    Firstly, I think if you can get truly addicted to porn, like many on this site, you can surely become "unaddicted". Human brains have high "plasticity", which means we can easily take on new behaviors that encourage rewarding behavior; since porn seems "highly rewarding", it can easily change the neural pathways in the brain (To our simple hunter-gatherer minds, to whom sex and reproduction is of utmost importance, endless porn is seen as endless reproductive opportunities, and is therefore a very rewarding behavior.). If our brains can be "bent" into thinking porn is great, they can also be "bent" into not liking it. It just takes time and the right method.

    Does porn addiction cause irreversible damage to the brain?
    Why did my porn use escalate?

    Sex on the Brain: What Brain Plasticity Teaches About Internet ...https://www.yourbrainonporn.com › porn-use-sex-addiction-studies › sex-...

    DeltaFosB, Neuroplasticity and Addiction – Your Brain On Pornhttps://www.yourbrainonporn.com › deltafosb-neuroplasticity-and-addiction

    Second, I don't think porn addiction is the result of an immoral psyche. I think not being in a very positive place in your life, especially your sex life, can lead to porn abuse, but people's consciouses aren't always defined by their lowest lows. It can effect anyone and everyone. Recently, people with the worst porn addictions and PIED relative to others their age are teens; I wouldn't say that these individuals are spiritually sickened, but just using something that they don't fully understand.

    Does it help to view porn use as immoral?
    Why did my porn use escalate?
    Research confirms enormous rise in youthful ED

    Third, while I do recognize that porn/sex addictions show very similar brain patterns and behaviors to drug addicts, I think their treatment and solutions should be different for one fundamental reason: no one needs drugs or alcohol to feel fulfilled and happy, but sex and climax is so important to us as animals that restricting it from "normal" levels can have dire consequences. Like for drugs and alcohol, once you wane yourself off of an addiction, many people just don't use them ever again. Lots of people just straight up avoid drugs and alcohol from the beginning, and some don't even want to try. Sexual pleasure is different though. It is so important for our species that it has become the most rewarding and compulsive type of behavior. If you're a porn or sex addict, just getting someone to cease all sexual pleasure forever is extremely hard. It's also hard for people who aren't even addicted; the people who are restricted from sexual activities with a partner (or worse themselves), often have the most disturbing sexual behaviors (aka priests, religious fundamentalists, truck drivers with no permanent residence). In my opinion, treating sex/porn addiction like other addictions may be good on a physiological level, but restricting sexual pleasure altogether is not the answer. This relates to my final, and most important point...

    Do I have to have sex in order to rewire?
    What about masturbation without porn?

    Lastly, so many people on NoFap don't understand that ON ITS OWN, NOT MASTURBATING AND NOT WATCHING PORN WILL NOT CURE YOUR ADDICTION OR PIED. All this stuff with endless streaks, sperm retention, and avoiding arousal can work in the short term to alleviate the negative compulsions and behaviors influenced by porn. However, avoiding all sexual stimulation indefinitely not only sucks ass, but it is pretty unreasonable, and sets up former porn abusers for massive binges. The best way to get rid of a porn addiction or PIED is to do a reboot to wipe the brain clean, but then to immediate follow it up with sex and other positive sexual behaviors (flirting, kissing, cuddling, etc.); YBOP's creators call this "rewiring", from porn "wiring" your brain to bad stuff, the reboot "unwiring" your brain's sexual preferences, followed by correctly "rewiring" yourself. Without rewiring, the longer your brain goes without sexual pleasure or release, the more it will crave for it and look for ways to satisfy itself; if the last thing it came to was PMO, then it will crave for that the most. If you're just doing NoFap to not masturbate forever, you're doing this wrong, and will either deal with porn compulsions forever or fall into negative sexual actions again.

    Do I have to have sex in order to rewire?
    What benefits do people see as they reboot?
    Will stopping porn solve my problems?
    Any connection between orgasm, abstinence, and blood testosterone levels?
     
  9. MuscularSherlockHolmes

    MuscularSherlockHolmes Fapstronaut

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    Nearly 2 years clean.

    Nofap is no magical cure. Just stopping porn-masturbation doesn't solve other issues in your life, you have to overhaul everything in your life in order to direct it in a positive direction.

    While not fapping doesn't make your life instantly better, fapping endlessly doesn't make it any better either.

    Whatever you are trying to sell, I am not interested, let alone entertain the idea of buying it.
     
  10. geheim

    geheim Fapstronaut

    What a ridiculous statement. Fighting the addiction (abstaining) is the first and essential step into the right direction. That other steps must follow doesn't make the initial step any less necessary.
     
  11. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I don't agree with that. I was addicted to daily (P)MO binges for 25 years and it was this site and people on this forum that hold my hand in times of dispair and pointed me in the direction of Garry Wilsons' YourBrainOnPorn and Patrick Carnes' books, which led me into discovering that addict needs to address underlying issues and finding dr. S. Illadi's work on depression and later Ryan Donnelly's and Tim Johnson YT channels. Through them I discovered teachings of Dr. Gabor Mate and neuroscientist Mark Lewis and many others... I truly believe that this forum has pointed the way to my recovery path. I'll be soon 2 years since I've joined this forum and I've managed to practice hardmode 15 out of 24 months. That is more than I managed to do in the previous 23 years of life. I tried to quit on my own for at least 10 years prior to finding NoFap and dr. Cranes teachings without much success. This forum can show you the way out of addiction, but the walk is yours and yours alone to take.

    Eckart Tolle: "Every Addiction starts with pain and ends with pain." Gabor Mate:" Not why the addiction, but why the pain." NoFap will not kill you, but underlying unaddressed issue, like depression originating from a past trauma or emptiness inside you, pushing you into addiction, may actually do that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2019 at 11:01 AM
  12. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    I agree with most of what you are saying, however you have all entirely missed the point. Perhaps I did not articulate it well.

    My argument is that there are two types of people coming to this site.

    Type 1 - Bad Habits
    For these individuals nofap may work. They will do the 90's days abstinence. They will focus on rewiring with positive sex interactions. They will move on with life and be fine. For these people nofap is a great resource.

    Type 2 - True Addicts
    The true addict may follow the nofap guidelines for recovery. Get clean, be doing great and then make the insane decision to use pornography again. For these people no possible consequence will dissuade them from throwing away their sobriety.
    For these unfortunate people nofap can be very dangerous because it will likely offer them a path to recovery that CANNOT work for them. This will only lead them further down the path of self destruction (hence nofap may kill you). I know, because I am one of these people. "I caught the bullet"

    Why is it like this? Because for the True Addict, his/her addiction is a chronic, progressive and deadly disease. The solution for this disease is rarely offered in the pages of these forums. A chronic disease requires daily "medicine" to keep it in remission. For the true addict this medicine comes in the form of a daily spiritual (not religious) practice. The only way I know of to achieve this (Maybe there are others) is through the 12 step program. This should also be coupled with therapy to deal with the underlying trauma issues.

    For the record, sexaholics anonymous does not require you to give up sex for life. I'm not promoting that idea.

    What I'm advocating for is that we should be qualifying the newcomer when they arrive at this site. Are they someone with a bad habit that can be helped by nofap, or are they a true addict who will require a significantly more intensive recovery program.

    The purpose of the poll is to show people the length of time they have been using this site without achieving recovery in order that this might open them up to the possibility that a different approach is required.
     
    Raging Wife and Fenix Rising like this.
  13. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    Very good point I agree 100 % with what has been written. 90 days abstinence is OK for breaking a bad habit and that's about it. Addiction is not just a bad habit, it runs much, much deeper in a human core. Addict needs deep introspection into his life, dissemble his lifestyle and belief system and reassemble it bit by bit on new solid foundations to make it stick. Anything else will result in a relapse and progression of harmful behavior(s). Advocating that 90 days abstinence will do the trick for a person fighting with addiction is very irresponsible and can be harmful as it will only reinforce feelings of shame, guilt and hopelessness when successfully completed 90 days challenge ends in a relapse soon after.
     
    Mr.Chips and ANewFocus like this.
  14. 4eyedfox

    4eyedfox Fapstronaut

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    I dont even want to argue with this guy so ill just say one thing. OK BOOMER
     
  15. Ronila

    Ronila Fapstronaut

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    I think you are trying to say that NoFap is presented as solution to wide verity of sexual problems while it fails to help people who are actually abusing pornography. I think that is being remedied by accountability project recently launched by the site.

    People got upset with your ideas because original post was titled - "NoFap May Kill You" that's "bait" for conflict and no one will take you seriously.
     
    Indurian and El CID 10 F60.6 like this.
  16. modernstore99

    modernstore99 Fapstronaut

    Yeah you really didn't articulate this very well the first time.

    This language is just really divisive and edgy. You're putting people into groups and saying they're different; it almost sounds like you think one is better than the other because of their chances to be afflicted by a disease. Kinda shitty imo.

    I do not like that NoFap and its users do not heavily advertise that rewiring is necessary for getting rid of your porn addiction, but you are just using bait and excuses to justify what sounds like a poor worldview on addiction. NoFap may not be enough to heal you, but it will certainly not kill you.

    Again, go look at YBOP to really get into the how/why people get addicted
     
    El CID 10 F60.6 likes this.
  17. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

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    To anyone reading this, what the other members said about abstaining from P and M and O being the cure to any addiction, is absolutely correct. Our reality is that NoFap can give a newbie an education about what the addiction is, neurologically, and can give support in quitting it. When I quit, a long time ago, the concept of "quitting porn" was an odd concept. The notion that porn was addictive was an odd conception. When I first tried to quit, I did not believe in putting porn and addiction as a phrase, I did not believe porn addiction was a possible thing. Then, I saw the Gary Wilson video and accepted that the behavioral addiction we call porn addiction, but is actually an addiction to a neurological reward we get from sexual thoughts, is real. Only then did quitting become possible for me, and I did. But, back then, no one was here to tell me about the hard 90, or that the pain will recede, then go away, or that the physical side effects of porn abuse, would go away. Now, those concepts are everywhere, here. One of the really powerful ways this site can help members is shrinking the problem. For a lot of guys/girls who first arrive here, the problem looks HUGE and insurmountable. The concept of giving up porn consumption is inconceivable. This place, through education, allows a member to understand the problem is not huge, and is really quite small. Huge problems seem like they cannot be fixed. Small problems seem far more fixable. It is about understanding the why of the habit, and understanding that, though painful, it does not have to be used that way. We can quit using porn to get high. We may not like losing that high, we may hate losing that high, but, eventually, we get to a place where we no longer miss it. Education is key.

    Good luck to all. Keep going, porn is not an option. I have absolute confidence in the success of everyone here who takes time to understand the problem, and is willing to suffer, a bit, while fixing it.

    Much love.

    Will I AM.
     
  18. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    I'm not saying one group is better than the other. Only that we have to recognize that there is a significant difference on how we should treat addicts vs non - addicts. If you are an addict nofap could certainly kill you. I believe this, it's not "bait". Sex addiction kills. It's a fact. And spending time on a recovery plan that will not work for an addict, like the one most promoted on this site, is extremely dangerous. Most alcoholics who die from their addiction die sober, not recovered, but sober. It's called suicide and it's how sex addiction kills as well. I've read your brain on porn. It's great. But it is completely insufficient for someone with the genetic predisposition to addiction. Understanding is not enough for these people.
     
  19. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    It's not bait, I sincerely believe the recovery plan most promoted on this site will not work for the true addict. It will lead them further into despair. For average joe kid who get caught up in porn, it's ok. But for the small percentage of addicts in the population, who are completely powerless over their addiction, this site rarely offers the solution.
     
  20. Carbon Icon

    Carbon Icon Fapstronaut

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    Exactly. And guilt, hopelessness and shame lead to suicide. That's how most addicts, who don't recover, go out.

    You have developed an entire program of recovery and it seems to be working for you. That awesome. It seems to be quite close to the 12 step program.
    Challenge your worldview/belief system and create a new one.
    Drastically change your lifestyle to focus on connection, mindfulness and service.
    One thing I've found extremely beneficial is the face to face connection and phone connection with other addicts. It's so incredibly helpful and more powerful than the online thing. It may be something you should consider adding to your program.
     
    Fenix Rising likes this.

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