"Should I stay or should I go ?" (Sex drive edition)

Thank you very much for your heartfelt answer. I touched me profoundly. I feel a great relieve by reading what you shared, and by learning from our similarities.

Yes, rejection can be really hurtful. I'm sick of continually experiencing it. Sometime I promise myself to never initiate sex again. To get revenge. It's silly and of course I can't do it. But it's a recurring thought. I also thought communication was the key, but after hundreds and hundreds of deep, long conversation, wether in person on by text or email, I do not see any big change... I'm quite depressed by it.
She says she cannot commit to any amount of sex, as she has promised me countless times to schedule X or Y times a week/month and could never keep her promise. Never. She always found and excuse after another, said she's sorry, but I don't recall any really and lasting effort from her on the matter, and it drives me more and more depressed.
Don't think that I believe that she has to do all the work, I know I have my part to work with and it's a big one, but I cannot do it alone if she just isn't able to to her part as well.

Has Dewey for "Malcolm in the middle" said : I expected nothing and I'm still disappointed. That sums up my feeling pretty well.
I heard her promises and was disappointed every time. Now, I do not believe her and I'm still disappointed when she failed to keep her promise.

We talked calmly countless times about what could enhance her sexual mood. She just seems to be uninterested. She enjoys my various massages and cuddles, but it stays non-sexual in her head. She doesn't like sexual foreplay. More romance just lead to non-sexual cuddle. It's hopeless.

If my porn-induced sex drives were to lessen, it will be a relieve. I'm not expecting anything in that matter. I just want to complete my year long PMO-free challenge. I was able to last a bit more than 4 month. I know I can do it. Fatigue, stress, boredom and anger managements are the culprits and triggers.

 

Can you share a link to your journal ? I'll be more than happy to read it !

Everything is exactly how you described it. And what to do with this irritation ? I personally try not to be verbally aggressive, but she can still feel that I'll all bottled up inside. Sports doesn't really help. Just being away from her, at work, seem to be the only thing to lessen the feeling.

 

I 100% fully agree with all that you wrote !!! I never wanted the kind of "quick brutal sex" that porn displays. I've always been gentle, caring and loving with any of my partners. It's clearly the highest form of sharing, giving love, being one, spiritually and physically connected. A female orgasm, her orgasm, is the most rewarding and beautiful thing I know as well.

But... But when I want something quick (i.e. ''when I'm unable to cope with the challenges of life and just want my dopamine fix'') I don't know what to turn to, except PMO. And that saddens me.

 

When I think of leaving my wife the day after I used porn, I indeed am in full fantasy mode, imagining an endless flow of conquests while also retaining full freedom and independence. But all the other days, the choice is rather between "staying and trying again and again to improve my relationship and to quit PMO despite the hopelessness that I feel" and "leaving and having a life alone, without PMO, and eventually discover a new person along the way, a little bit more incline to sex (real, tender, loving sex, not just cuddles)".

I have already lived alone and I don't mind it. I mind being addict and I want to be free of it.

Something important that I should stress : she never minded that I watch porn. She never sees it as a betrayal. More like a "thing guys do". And that always bothered me, that she didn't mind. I always thought that she might be horrified or feel betrayed knowing I watched porn, but no. And that bothers a lot still.

I do not want to act out what I see in porn. I just what to share something with her. I want her to be as active as I am. I want us to share something powerful and deep, emotionally and even spiritually. I do not objectify her. She always said she always felt respected and listened, like never before me. Maybe a bit in the beginning, before I was aware of the damage of porn. But know that I'm fully aware of the effects porn has on the brain and that I'm learning from it, she says she is fully satisfied. She doesn't have a problem with me. I have a problem with her attitude. She is very passive in bed, always has been.

I know I still have a long way to go to be PMO-free.

 

That's right that my brain is desensitized. I still enjoy what she gives me, but I believe you, I probably don't enjoy it as much as I should (compared to the future porn-free me).

Unlike what seems to be common among porn addicts, I never experienced any lasting escalation in taste and intensity. I don't feel like my preference have ever really changed. Even while relapsing, I'm always turn off by extreme porn and such. I've been tempted, by the connected nature of the internet, to explore, but I always returned to my core preferences.

I never felt that "what is this filth that I just watched?" sensation after PMO, unlike the common feeling shared on the forum. That's quite unsettling.

But yeah, my porn taste are anyway "more" that what I'm getting with my wife, that's for sure.
However she's still very passive, expecting me to do everything. She has a very selfish nature, and she is content by letting me do all the work, not realizing I need her to be active too. She knows it, we've talked about it countless times, but nothing has changed.

She knows I want her to be more participative, she knows how I'd like her to proceed, and it's far from what I can see in porn. She tells me she doesn't like to take the lead, that like likes to relax and let me do all the work, and she feel sorry that I'm not satisfied. Yet she doesn't act any differently...

Yes, you are absolutely right ! I noticed when I proposed things that I've seen in porn. Clearly it's a big no, and I fully respect that. But what I'm asking is just "normal sex" between married partner. She just isn't interested.

Her pleasure depends on mine ??? That's a big shocker !!
I always assume my pleasure depended on hers, so I always focused on her.

I no longer project porn imagery on her. I was able to stop doing that some 2 or 3 years ago. Now I fully with her, in the moment, focused in the here and now.

The thing is, I was regularly able to blow her mind. Her own words, there's no need in bragging, just stating a fact. But clearly I disrespected myself in the process. By focusing all my efforts and time on how to please her the most, I achieved just that. But I realize I was expecting her to have the same level of engagement towards me. I realize hurtfully that she was content being pleased, but she is far from having the same level of wanting to please me. I am very, very disappointed.
I know it's not fair to resent her. She is the same woman I met years ago. I projected my own level on her, and that was clearly a mistake.

In my experience, it has been : the more I blow her mind, the more she is content, the less often she needed sex (she said she was fulfilled), the more she rejected me (because her sensation of fulfill-ness lasted longer and longer), the less she proposition anything.
Come to think of it, she really really really rarely propositioned sex.

The only "logical" conclusion, in my recurring questioning, is that were are just not compatible. We were drawn to each other by love. But love and compatibility are two very different things.

I'm crying internally... That's exactly what I've been doing for more than a decade now...
She doesn't want me to do anything special. She says that everything I do is great, that she feels respected and loved, that she is fulfilled and doesn't want anything more or different. She reaches multiple orgasms every time !!!

She's just selfish... I'm doing my best and she appreciate it, but almost never return the favor.
I've never done anything with any "a favor for a favor" mindset, but after so much rejection I can't stand it anymore and I've realize how little she tries to please me compare to how much I invest myself into pleasing her.

That's another thing. There is no betrayal feeling. She always known I watch porn. She told me she thought it was just a "guy's thing" when I try to explain my addiction. She was surprised I suffered from it. She had no idea. She never cared at all until I explained the addiction in details numerous times. She has no anger whatsoever towards me. She never showed any and always told me she felt no just things while discussing and reflecting on it calmly.

I've been waiting for almost a decade now. I'm pissed off and aimless. I've been waiting and waiting, not asking for any sex, and she just never feels like it on her own. There is no catching up whatsoever...

I'm waiting to successfully "cure" myself, that's for sure.

I'm waiting for more appreciation from my part.

But I've progressively giving up on her all the same. I feel dead inside and all tensed up while I've with her. I feel normal alone and with everyone else...

 

You're absolutely right about pessimism and desperation. I'm deeply depressed and desperate. I hope I can one day see through a more positive lens (I'm not sure there is such a thing as objectivity).

You say I have no right to expect her to change, and I recognize the truth in this. But I can also feel a deep feeling inside me telling me that "if she cannot make me happy, why am I with her". I want to believe that it's the addiction talking. As you said, I was probably in the depths of a post-relapse depression. My whole life feels like an unending circle of depression and momentary joy. It's coherent with the logic of addiction, actually.

The thing is I've manage to keep from relapsing for more than 4 months, and I still had those aching questions about wether or not we're meant to stay together. But still, I want to believe you, I want to believe that it's the addicting talking, otherwise the future seems darker still... If all my depression and dark questionings are indeed PMO-related, then I can have faith in a brighter future for my marriage after the "end" of the addiction.
But if, when "cured", the question remains... well I don't want to think about it. I really want those questions to be PMO-related... If they are not, as I fear, then it makes the recovery even more difficult, because getting rid of PMO will then mean loosing my marriage.

I know how that sounds, and I really wish to be all wrong, here.

Love is indeed what brought us together, and I want to adapt, I want to learn how to relieve my inner tension without PMO and without sex, in order to really be with her when we'll be making love. I have a few ideas, like journal about the source of inner tension, talking more to friends, pursuing my life goals, making art, etc.

After 11 years of difficulty, I'm still willing to try and to adapt to her. I'm like that.
How can anyone know when they have tried enough times to recognize something beyond saving ?
Another big fear of mine.

Part of me believe that she's adding so much to my inner tension that she is one of the major source of my difficulty to stop this addiction. I know it sound like I don't take my responsibility on this, and maybe it's true, I don't know. All I know is that she's driving me crazy. You said that I didn't complain about other aspect of my relationship : I consider sex as the tip of the iceberg of a couple's problematic. If sex isn't doing so good, it shows a deeper issue. And yes, PMO is a biiig part of it, no denying. But they are other problems here, and I wasn' too keen on sharing them at first :
- We have a haaard time communicating. She often doesn't understand me, doesn't remember simple things. It feels like she's nagging and bugging me all the time for no reason. I don't do that to her. It feel unjust and unjustified.
- I feel like I'm making all the efforts in the couple. It has always been me who point out the issues, who researched the potential solutions, who got in touch with this or this therapeutist, who initiate deep conversation, etc. I feel she's just "going with the flow", not making any effort to stir us in the right direction. I feel exhausted. I sense no will in her. She promises to think about it, to change this and that, to keep this or that in mind, but it has always been empty promises.
- Like in the Maslow Pyramid, I feel like my esteem needs are not net. I often feel disrespected by her although I'm making a priority to act according to what she ask.

We have beginning seeing a sexologist a month ago, and I bought the great books "for women only" and "for men only" by Shaunti and Jeff Feldhahn. Amazing reads ! I deeply recommend them. According to those books, a lot of our problem are "classical problems" in couples, so there is still hope. And the sexologist feels like she'll be able to help us both, so here's another piece of hope for me as well !

But you're right, maybe I'm expecting too much, or too "in the wrong direction".

You're also absolutely right about the victim mindset. I know I have it. It's not the first time I'm hearing this. I'm just unable to see it, being so deeply in it. I hope one day I'll be out of it and will be able to see this more clearly.
I realize that only people outside of me can see clearly this victimism of mine. I'm too deep in this to be able to see really comprehend the ramifications of it. I can only feel that "something feels wrong" in certain on my sentences, but I'm not yet able to put my finger on it. Hope this is also a mindset that will go away with the recovery.

Lots of people doesn't find love, I hear you. But how many people are stuck in bad relationships ? And how can I know if I'm in one of them or not ? (that's the reason I started this thread)

"If you love her, stay."
Yep... I feel so much fog inside me that I'm not even sure I still know what real love is.
I really hard to say, but sometimes I'm not sure I'm still loving her. This thought is killing me slowly.

I want to believe all you have generously taken the time to write. I want it to be true, and I will get rid of this addiction. I *AM* getting rid of it. I started this journey on september 2015, and I'm willing to heal myself completely.
Thank you so very much for all you have written !!!

 

Thanks a lot. I want to believe it.
I'm unable to deeply feel the truth in your words, but I know you're right.
Thank you.

 

Yeeeaaaaah... I can be pretting devious with myself, so I wouldn't be surprise if you were 100% right on this. Thanks a lot for your advice and observation ! They are indeed precious !

 

First of all, thank you so very much for everything that you wrote. You are a luminous being and your light shine very bright in your writings. I'm feeling very honored that you answered me with so much compassion and detailed advices. I'm deeply grateful.

I've tried and tried and tried. I'm very patient and passionate, I've tried to focus only on massaging and caressing her in non-sexual ways, the way she likes. But none of it have ever changed her sexual appetite. She just doesn't like sex as much as I do. She told me so herself, many times. It always felt like she told me "you'll never be happy with me".

I'm so emotional these last few days, I feel like crying all the time. I feel shattered and mad.

But I've always tried to be the best husband possible for her, and she's very grateful and happy with me (her words). She feels very lucky to have found me. Ho man, I'm so unhappy. I feel a heavy dark mass on my heart.

 

All right, here's what I love about her, in no particular order :
- She doesn't want children
- She likes living in the countryside
- She is very nature-oriented and very conscious about the urgency of taking care of our environment
- We like the same music
- She likes my friend
- She likes going to concerts, like me
- She likes medieval stuffs
- She loves animals and pets and she takes good care of them
- She loves gardening and growing our own food
- She doesn't spend the money we don't have
- She's smart (also she keep saying she's not)
- We like the same movies
- She likes staying at home
- She loves deep conversations late at night
- She loves... me. That's something I never thought possible, but it's true. She knows everything about me, the best and the worst, and still she loves me.
- She is very kind
- She can have the most beautiful eyes and smile
- She has a beautiful figure
- She loves me despite all my flaws (I know, I'm repeating myself, but it's very important)
- She's very honest, straightforward and frank
- She has a strong mind and a strong will
- She has a good and gentle heart


What I'm going to do to kick my own ass out of this emotional slump :
- Continue my (and our) journey with the sexologist
- Using the tools the sexologist is giving me (completing emotional charts, for example)
- Keep working on my professional project
- Don't dwell too much on this matter, although I don't believe I can do it
- Keep doing yoga
- Allowing myself some recreational time : video games and book reading
- Maybe starting a dairy, although I fear I would be dwelling too much on the dark stuffs

 

Well I hope you are right. I want you to be right. I'm focusing on my professional project, on keeping my professional and personal schedule, on giving me time to unwind, etc. I'm trying to focus on everything but sex and PMO. It's hard, and I stumble a lot, but I'm still trying my best, giving the circumstances.

Will I be able to be happy with a small amount of sex, and to hold longer between two intercourse ?