Socrates' Three Rules

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by ConradJHart, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    This comes from the Gorgias.

    1. We cannot willingly do evil.
    2. It is better to suffer from an unjust act than to commit an unjust act.
    3. I would rather have the whole world divided against me than be divided against myself.

    Do you agree with Socrates? Why or why not?
     
  2. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    50
    81
    18
    Great post. These are found at the root of many philosophical schools of thought and religious systems.

    #1 is very tricky. Thomas Aquinas provides the best supporting explanation I've ever read, somewhere in the Summa Theologica. I can find the chapter if you want me to.

    #2 is a foundation of ethics

    #3 I just want to point out as an interesting aside that the Latin word for devil, "diabolos", is "divider". Incoherence and division have always been seen as the first fruits of what we call evil.
     
    Deleted Account and LavaMe like this.
  3. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    I have actually had my fill of Thomas Aquinas hahaha. The Summa Theologica is probably the only philosophical piece I have ever read and did not like. This is almost completely because of my bias towards the separation of church and state.

    If we are to agree with number one then two and three would follow. If we believe that we commit evil out of ignorance, then it would also follow that it is better to suffer injustice than to commit it. If this is true then it would be better to have the world unjustly divided against you than it would be to divide yourself by commiting an unjust action.

    I probably wrote a paper on this at one time, but that about sums it up.

    That is an awesome response for the third rule. I didn't know that the devil and divider were linked through etymology. I'm hoping to hear from others as well, and I hope to learn something else new.
     
  4. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,702
    3,912
    143
    I'm not sure this is something that can be said about all evil. For one thing, it sounds a bit like excusing evil acts simply because a person was ignorant.
    If you keep going in that direction, then you may end up canceling free will. Free will means you can perfectly see & understand both sides of every situation, both paths that lay in front of you, you weigh all the options and then choose what to do. To say that man has no idea what evil truly is means man doesn't really know what he's doing at all. Meaning, not really having free will.

    Anoher possible direction is that who's to say evil is done out of ignorance? Perhaps it's the other way around: Good is done out of ignorance. That would be an argument for evil people.
     
  5. Sinbad

    Sinbad Fapstronaut

    Allow me to interpret this in my own way relating to our nofap journey.
    While we attempt to rewire ourbrain, we must abstain from looking at P and P-subs.
    In our modern society, we find ourselves in the midst of erotic commercials. Our social companions may show us vulgar imagery. Seeing this hurts our reboot.
    We may catch ourselves entertaining an erotic fantasy.
    It's better to look away instantly and do something else instead than to allow ourselves to participate. Or even worse, go look for it intentionally ourselves.
    We'll often find ourselves alone in our journey to abstain from pmo. These days it's considered "normal behavior". But we must hold on and continue to act according to our own beliefs, no matter the discomfort.
     
    Deleted Account likes this.
  6. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    Great post. Let me clear up a few things about Socrates. I'll use dialogue from the Republic and the Apology.

    The most famous quote people would attribute to Socrates comes from the Apology. This quote is, "The unexamined life is not worth living." For Socrates, free will comes from having the wisdom and self control to know what virtue is. Because man would never make an intentional decision to harm himself, and evil harms the person doing it, it follows that a person could only do evil out of ignorance of knowing what is best.

    This isn't what most of us would term as free will in modern society. In the Republic, Socrates doesn't believe free will is simply having the self-determination to choose what path to go down, but it comes from an understanding of morality and virtue.

    What do you think?
     
  7. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,702
    3,912
    143
    Not sure I follow. Is Socrates saying that morality comes from knowledge? Meaning a person isn't born with a moral compass but it develops over time if he does his research well enough?
     
    vowed likes this.
  8. vowed

    vowed Fapstronaut

    50
    81
    18
    That is indeed controversial. I don't subscribe to that view.
     
    Hros likes this.
  9. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    Great way to tie it to all of us! It is always a great practice to make something educational relatable to us in some way. That is what gives education meaning.
     
  10. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    That's essentially correct! I'll just word it differently to hopefully make it more understandable or relatable.

    Self-knowledge is sufficient for the good life. Because virtue and knowledge are linked, virtue can be learned over time.

    The unexamined life is not worth living. This means that man cannot live in ignorance if he is to have a fulfilling life. Learning to live with virtue is the highest good, and it is what Socrates hoped to convey to citizens through his dialect.

    Sorry for the short post as I am at work. I would be happy to give more detail later in the evening.

    Given this, what do you think?
     
  11. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

    1,702
    3,912
    143
    Thanks, it's easier to understand now. Sounds like a regular idea expressed by the Greek philosophers: Smart people (meaning themselves) are the best. If you want to be a good person, get to studying.
    The Greeks always seemed a bit self-righteous to me.
     
  12. ConradJHart

    ConradJHart Fapstronaut

    37
    67
    18
    Good! To sum it up in one sentence: Socrates did not think it would be possible to practice free will in its true form if you lacked the knowledge to practice free will in a way that would benefit your livelihood the most.

    I think self-righteous is a correct or at least almost completely accurate term to use for the ancient Greeks. I am only going to give a very short history lesson to explain.

    The ancient Greeks believed so highly of themselves and their democracy that they fought against the Persians twice and fended them off. This was the height of ancient Greek morale, and they believed they could truly accomplish anything.

    However, this became a problem as separate city-states had their own ideas. Athens expanded their territory so widely and forcefully that one could argue that they were no longer a democracy at all. Sparta also used their military strength to expand their own territory.

    Both of these city-states' suspicions of each other eventually led to the Peloponnesian War. It ended up in a Spartan victory over Athens, but both city-states suffered such heavy losses that they both never rose to prominence in a way that resembled their city-state before the war.

    Both city-states had an unbending belief in their way of life, and this unbending belief led Athens and Sparta to essentially destroy themselves. We have to remember that. Civil War is among the most senseless of conflicts. By depleting the resources of a country, it undermines both the victor and the vanquished.

    Many lessons can be learned from ancient Greece. Not just for our country, but also for ourselves.
     
    Hros likes this.
  13. SuperPowers

    SuperPowers Fapstronaut

    89
    83
    43
    1. Agree. Because nobody does outside of psychopaths, sociopaths and narcissists. If this was a conscious world nobody could harm another.

    2. Interesting

    3. Certainly agree. I'll have to fix that to memory. If you go against the norm, you win, people want to keep you a sheep, a part of the herd, if in your mind and heart you are pure, then fuck what anyone thinks. In the end, if you're trying to better yourself, you can give the world the proverbial middle finger.
     

Share This Page