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Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Pentatonic, Jun 17, 2021.
Making this since the villain thread was getting a bit derailed.
I definitely agree that it's a fantastic premise. It's like TNG (ish), but with no backup, no allies (yet...ish. They make allies only for those allies to never be featured or even mentioned again. See Dreadnought), nothing to fall back on but their wits and their one ship. Absolutely genius premise, but... already, the show starts with problems. In the first episode, we get Kes. I don't like Kes. Personality wise, I think she's fine, whatever. She doesn't stand out to me, but she doesn't annoy me either. But it's painfully obvious from the start that the writers had no idea what to do with her, highlighted by the fact that they wrote her out of the show. I never saw any point to her character. The show didn't need a characterized Doctor's assistant, the other shows certainly didn't have that. I doubt she was for sex appeal either, her outfits weren't very provocative. Just... why?
I think her relationship with Neelix is creepy and difficult to believe, considering she was, what, 1-2 years old when they met? I understand that her kind are supposed to live very short lives, but I think that detail didn't need to be added. And her romantic relationship with him ended so... strangely too. Like they just forgot about it. It's like after she recovered being possessed by Tiernan, she decided she was alright with the fact that he broke up with Neelix.
To finish my thought, it baffled me so much that it made me start to dislike her character. But funnily enough, I think she's great as a side character. But episodes with a focus on her fall flat to me. It's like none of the shows get characters that pilot ships right. In Voyager, it's Paris and I hate Paris. In Enterprise, it's Travis Mayweather, who is extremely wooden. In TNG, it's Wesley. I despise Wesley.
I'll reply to the rest of this soon but this part stood out as something I can quickly answer.
I like Jadzia but my issue with her is that in the first few seasons she is much more shy and nervous about herself and about living up to expectations, and then in later seasons she is a warrior princess. I know she has some of those traits from the start, and I know there is an explanation as to why she starts acting differently (the episodes where she actually talks to Curzon through Odo and overcomes this hump) but on a rewatch it seems rather jarring. I guess she's allowing more of Curzon to seep through but at times I feel like the "aspects of different hosts bleeding through" thing is just a way of handwaving her being wildly inconsistent at times.
I find it really baffling that the premise of Voyager is basically testing Federation values in a place where there is no backup, and yet for a decent chunk of the show, Voyager is either the most powerful ship in the area and/or we see no consistent signs that anyone really suffers from any of the things that happen. Year of Hell is the best example of the show ruining its own brilliant concepts; great setup, but in the end nothing that happens in it matters. That is the show in a nutshell. Entertaining on an episode to episode basis but horrendous as an overall story.
I also kind of think they spoiled the Borg. Honestly, and this is a hot take perhaps, the Borg were never better than they were in that first appearance in season 2 of TNG. In that story they are basically invincible and I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner where they would have to nerf them if they appeared again. Which is basically what they did. Then in Voyager, one hand giveth and the other taketh away, they added so much cool stuff about them but the more we knew about them the less interesting and enigmatic they became. And dont get me started on Species 8472. Trans-dimensional aliens that are immune to assimilation, can survive in a vacuum, can blow up whole planets, can tear through ships, and are telepathic? What 15 year old deviantart writer wrote this?
Agreed. The show is too safe, to put it. We know that Voyager is classified as Intrepid class, being a science vessel, known for speed and manuverability. (Which is a knock on their conflict with the Kazon, Voyager can go up to Warp 9, Kazon ships can apparently only reach Warp 4...) Yet... in battle, the ship seems to perform as well as the Defiant, for some reason. That's why I love the episode Course: Oblivion. While an unfortunate reminder that the overall show is too safe, it was a fun "what if" on the absolute destruction of Voyager and it was one of the few attempts at continuity in the show... even if it didn't make any sense. For example, where the hell did the fake ship come from... the "silver blood" never cloned the ship.
Someone said on Reddit that Year of Hell should've been its own season. That would be cool, seeing a gradual, season-long decline of Voyager's resources, crew, technology, and morale throughout the season.
Oooof... you know, I actually liked 8472, but now that you point all of that out, it does seem ridiculous. The only thing I liked the show did with the Borg is that new menacing Collective voice they got, assuming that was first featured in Voyager. Still, I actually liked the Borg seemingly being this overwhelming menace, to the point that Q tells his son to, quote:
"Don't provoke the Borg!"
Implying that even the Q were wary of them. And yet... in Voyager, we never really see that. There's even one line from Janeway where she says that the Hansens, if memory serves, were only just scratching the surface on the secrets of the Borg and that it would take decades to uncover them. At that point in the show, I doubted that very much. I also disliked the Borg children. Most of them had absolutely no point to the show, except perhaps Icheb. I didn't mind him so much. But they didn't even keep that Borg baby they brought on, though. It was starting to feel like the writers were just making it up as they go.
And don't even get me started on Unimatrix Zero... ugh...
That's why her personality changed? I had no idea there was an episode on that. Or perhaps I simply forgot.
TOS had Sulu, can't imagine anyone not liking Sulu
Seems like this thread is an extension of a convo you were already having about this series, but my take:
DS9 was the best series, then TNG, TOS, Enterprise, Voyager, TAS. Not rating the new stuff because they are still ongoing so hard to get a sense of their overall quality. I'll say one thing though: while I generally like Michael Burnham, I hate how her whole character is based on an inconsistency- Spock said in TOS that a Federation officer had never mutinied, and yet his own sister did just that. Also, I find the whole "criminal universally mistrusted becomes valued member of the crew that even the captain consults before taking the ship into action" trope very unrealistic- I hate it when it's played in other shows and I don't like it here.
Another grievance with Discovery: the whole spore drive thing make no sense. Fungus is somehow connected to space-time in such a way that you can use fungal spores to travel from one point in space to another instantly? WTF? Smells to me like whoever came up with that was using some magic mushrooms.
Er, sorry, but I can't really comment on Discovery nor the Original Series. I won't watch the former since they ruined the Klingons and I won't watch the latter since I really don't like Kirk. I'm with you on DS9 being the best, though, but I can't agree on Enterprise being better than Voyager. To me, Enterprise had far less memorable episodes and characters. At least Voyager was entertaining.
I'm not sure I can even say TNG was better than Voyager. It definitely explored philosophical issues much better than Voyager ever did, with memorable quotes from the characters. Voyager, half the time, just made arguments that appealed to the heart and not the mind, (for example, Data being compared to humans was done far more eloquently than the Doctor being compared to us, most of his were just guilt-trips) but entertainment wise, I think I find myself skipping more episodes in TNG than I do Voyager. Need to check.
Edit: Yup, I checked. I hated the first 2 seasons, with the exception of some episodes and as an example, in Season 3, out of 26 episodes, there's about 6 of them I like. Maybe less.
Although I don't care what anyone says, I did like the intro song of Enterprise. Until they ruined it in Season 3.
That trope you mentioned though reminds me of Tom Paris. Who did not deserve to be promoted to Lieutenant after being in prison literally the day before. I think the show treated him as their golden boy, like TNG did with Wesley.
Oh damn, that made me laugh out loud. The irony is, I liked Species 8472...BUT, you're right, they were just too invincible and over the top.
As good as the premise of Voyager is, the more I think about it the more I realise it is inherently flawed. Voyager HAS to be a top of the line ship so it can do the usual Star Trek stuff people expect, but that makes a lot of the threats they encounter meaningless. On the other hand, if the ship had been less capable then it would have stretched people's suspension of disbelief even further when it managed to escape all these situations. I feel like a good middle ground would have been keep the ship as it is, but have its losses in functionality be more consistent. Actually have them dealing with losses in fuel, in energy, and other resources. Either go all in on the concept or dont bother.
I think the Q are wary of the Borg not because they are threatened by them but because they know messing about them is like kicking a wasp's nest. It causes issues for other species, not directly for the Q.
In general though the Borg and the Species 8472 situation are classic examples of power creep. In order to continually up the stakes, the writers needed something that could beat the Borg simply by being more powerful than them. Thing is though, previous Trek shows proved this isnt the right way to do it. The Cardassians arent more interesting than the Romulans or Klingons because they are more powerful, in fact they are noticeably weaker as a faction, they are interesting because the threat they present is DIFFERENT to what we have seen in the past. Same with the Dominion. Yes they technically are more powerful, but what makes them unique isnt that fact, it's them basically being an anti-federation that does that. To me, Species 8472 should have been something that was totally unique. I lean towards them being a virus that the Borg cant find a cure for, that spreads through organic matter and renders assimilation impossible without actually killing the host. In this scenario the Borg would be falling apart from the inside out, suddenly having to deal with thousands of drones who are dying because their link to the collective is being broken by this virus, as well as it allowing other species to deliberately infect themselves and put up better resistance now they know they cannot be assimilated. It would also create a moral dilemma, if Voyager cures this virus, they are allowing the Borg to resume business as usual. I know this concept is flawed but I think it's more interesting than the shlocky current form of Species 8472.
Yes, it's season 3 I think. All of the cast have a past host imprinted into them while Jadzia talks to them. Odo merges with Curzon and doesnt want to separate afterwards. Jadzia learns to stand up to him in the process.
I like them for entertainment value but they are very cheesy and silly. See what I said to Mixolydian about power creep in the post above.
I gave Discovery a chance but I bailed after the second season. Discovery just isnt Trek, it's your usual generic shlock but called Trek to appeal based on brand recognition. I very much dont like it being a prequel either, I'm bored of that era of Trek and going back to Klingons being villains is boring, it only worked in DS9 because it was a progression from prior events. I also dont care to watch Picard, I hate, HATE that the destruction of Romulus is now canon in the main timeline, I never liked it as a concept.
I read somewhere the writers stole this concept from someone online, but I read that years ago and I cannot say whether it's true or not. Either way it's very silly and not in a good way.
I love it honestly. IT'S BEEN A LONG ROAD....
Yes, I have noticed that, too. You put it quite eloquently, though. Cardassians do excel at conversation!
Since we're piling on Species 8472, my biggest problem with the whole "Scorpion" two-parter was encapsulated in one bit of dialogue between B'Elanna and Janeway:
B'Elanna: "What the Borg can't assimilate, they can't understand."
Janeway: "But we don't assimilate, we investigate."
My problem here is that one of the reasons the Borg are such a powerful threat is because they use the knowledge of all the thousands of species they've assimilated to solve a problem, to adapt. And we've seen that in other Borg episodes. Janeway even commented once that the Queen has the entire collective working on a way to adapt to trans-phasic torpedoes. The same episode (Endgame), even showed the Borg scanning Voyager's new armor technology to find ways to adapt. So surely, with their scans of Species 8472, and the fact that the nano-probes are a Borg technology, they would have figured out, in seconds, how to adapt them to destroy Species 8472.
Still, it was fun two-part episode.
I have enjoyed "Discovery" as a fun sci-fi show...but it definitely IS NOT Star Trek. Could not agree with you more on that point. I wish they would have just adapted (wink), those stories into a sci-fi show that has nothing to do with Star Trek, because it doesn't.
Enterprise created a great tense atmosphere that was absent in Voyager imo. The first human starship to voyage beyond Earth's solar system, babied by the Vulcans but now demanding to grow up, outgunned, getting involved in conflicts they do not understand. It really had you wondering how the hell they were going to survive when pretty much everyone else had better technology. I really enjoyed the political aspect of it as well, the hatred between the Vulcans and the Andorians and how through Captain Archer's efforts he was able to bring everyone together and establish the Federation. Commander Shran was probably my favorite character in the whole series. I found the series as a whole compelling. Not so much Voyager. Great concept but lacking in execution. And my biggest gripe: the ending. Too much handwaving. Felt like the writers were like: "OK this has been going on for 7 seasons, lets bring them home and end this thing for gosh sake." Very disappointing ending.
Yeah the Doctor was basically just Voyager's version of Data. While I like his character, it didn't feel to me that he explored the whole concept of the rights of artificial intelligence any more than Data already did in TNG.
The first two seasons were pretty horrible. The rest of the show makes up for it. I'm not a fan of the first three seasons of DS9. But after that the show got good. Voyager, on the other hand, was just mediocre pretty much over it's entire run.
Daddy pulled some strings.
I agree and I think the writers realized this too, in season 3 they sent Discovery to a completely different time period we'd never seen before.
I liked Picard. It was fun. Not much more to say. Good to see Patrick Stewart back in his old role again. Guess I didn't mind so much about the Romulans.
I forgot to mention Star Trek: Lower Decks in what I wrote above. I'll just say, it's pretty funny and obviously written by Star Trek nerds. It's stupid how it violated it's own premise though. The show is supposed to be about the ship's grunts who keep the ship running and have no legitimate reason to ever step onto the bridge. And yet by the end of the season- no surprise- the main characters are all chummy with the captain and the senior staff, making important decisions that not only affect the outcome of missions but the ship as well.
Just going to leave this right here. Apologies if someone already posted this.
Captain Kirk was the ultimate Chad. Galactic Slayer. lol
Ahahaha not the BBC meme in Star Trek too. Lol