Staring at other women

Of course she and we are confused by it because any non-addict cannot truly understand addiction. We can try to empathize but never sympathize unless we've dealt with it ourselves. I've seen cases where addicts are fully capable of sympathy but empathy is practically impossible until recovery happens.

And while it may not always have to do with sex, I do think for the SO it does usually relate to respect. How can you respect or value us and the relationship when you're constantly looking elsewhere and neglecting us and our needs or feelings? When a couple's relationship, sexually or otherwise, is compromised it really doesn't matter what it has to do with. So while it may not REALLY be about sex, the fact that this particular addiction involves mental (and sometimes IRL physical) infidelity makes it hard to completely separate the two. Or for us to not take it personally when we cannot have a normal sex life (in either quality or quantity) because of the inherent selfishness of addiction.

 

Pretty sure many people learn the golden rule of 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' in kindergarten. I know I did. But it's not very fun or exciting, like P, nd it's generally more emphasized for girls. So here we are.

 

I honestly don't know how I'd feel if my wife spent hours on the computer wanking to P. but if it ruined our relationship, I know how I'd feel.

 

Bad, Very bad.

 

Loyalty. YES!!! This may better describe the disconnect between PAs and SOs than anything else. The expected levels of loyalty of each person from their partner and how such perceptions can be shattered by this addiction, more so than any other. It does feel...disloyal. To vows. To proclamations of love and the person who supposedly inspires such feelings and devotion. Perhaps beyond discussing with a partner what qualifies as cheating, we should also look at the levels of loyalty we each require and are willing to give.

 

My SO also fought to quit PM.
I know it's engrained.
How would you like it if when you went out to grab groceries really quickly for dinner and she said she had to pee and later you found out every time this happened in a store it was because she was touching herself while looking at her phone while denying you sex?

How would it feel if you were talking about anything, really and your SO snapped around to the gorgeous guy with the good hair, dressed up in a nice suit as he walked right by and you Just knew she wasn't listening to you.
I imagine... Not too good.
Doesn't inspire intimate connections.
Doesn't inspire sexy times.
Especially if you thought you were jivving in what you just talking about.

I was saying that after being on the PA journey for years, my SO is transparent with me in a way that I think some SOs wish their PAs would hurry up and get to.
I do hope that when giving advice to the SOs, the PAs are taking the (good) advice they give, home to their wives and girlfriends.

We are all in a sick cycle carousel.
This journey is different and at the same time, simply put, the same, in ways for us all.
It's what brought us here.
Support.
It's good.

 

The things we don't notice when we don't know we need to notice them...
I'm truly sorry @Torn

 

Yep, it does definitely feel shitty. Most painful thing I have ever experienced, part of that due to being hurt/betrayed, part of that due to not feeling like I can trust myself because I trusted and chose him.

 

I am struggling to work this one out. I'm trying to work out whether fantasizing about people I see is wrong. Lot's of the guys and SOs here think ogling and lascivious behaviour is wrong, but I'm not so sure. It *is* wrong if it makes women uncomfortable, but if it is just an internal narrative then I am not sure.

It may just be a matter of definition. When I read @Kenzi's definitions of ogling my behaviour would not even count as ogling (I don't reach that point on her scale):

For me it's 'just' seeing an attractive woman and imagining what she would look like undressing. I don't (or at least I hope I don't) stare at her in a way that might make her uncomfortable. I have caught myself doing that a few times, but I stop and I try not to.

There's practical advice on how to stop too, like this from @seekingbalance on @Kenzi's ogling thread:

Or this by @Kenzi in @SpouseofPA's thread:

But I am not yet at the stage where I want to stop this. I am trying to work out if it is even wrong! I have been trying to understand what it is I am thinking when I am doing this as my first stage of analysis. But that's proving hard, my thoughts evaporate if I focus too hard on them.

I am tempted to think that it is healthy, not wrong. I have been reading Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel on @Sadgirl & @Kenzi's recommendation. This quote seems apt:

Perhaps if we call our behaviour "erotic daydreams" instead of ogling it becomes more palatable.

 

IMHO, it is not wrong if you don't make the woman (being ogled) aware of it. It would seem cruel and or attention seeking to make your SO aware of you doing it. My concern was/is that it led to PMO because I could not hold the image in my mind long enough to MO.

 

That's the position I seem to be reaching. And you make a good point about our SO. I am not always good at this but when we are out and about I want her to know she is the centre of my world, I do not want her to worry about me looking at other women. Looking back at @Torn's opening post just makes you sad:

I do not want to be the source of hurt like that anymore.

I hear you. I remember seeing a pretty woman in a loose cotton summer dress and thinking "ohh, that would make a great search term for some beautiful new porn" and then I'd make a new album on pinterest and the porn pinterest rip-offs and find similar images. But now I do not do pornography (and I do not masturbate to support staying porn free) and so the internal fantasies are not leading me to anything bad. (Unless they are bad in and of themselves, hence the post.)

 

That's exactly what I used to do. I would see someone at the gym, then it's a short click to a similar looking person (for we PAs are not too discerning when it comes to subjects). It pornifies the whole world. Not to mention our minds.

 

If I may.... What I have noticed, of many men, not just my SO, is that anything past a Notice, MANY women Noticed Back.
this is the uncomfortable problem...
We see it, even when you guys don't. A switch goes Off in your head and the guy loses track of time.
I journaled this on my honeymoon when I didn't want to Look up passing Red Riding hood becoming uncomfortable.
My SO, when out with his friends has noticed other such behavior... Men think it's a snapshot and they are able to separate the image and go away from the Live version to hold their fantasy...
This is hardly the case.
It's unfortunate.
If it was just a conjured image, I'd think more of the way of Ester... Probably... But men have little control.. It's more gravity... It's more patterns engrained they aren't aware of anymore.

 

Thanks for pointing that out @Kenzi. I am going to spend some time looking at this. Can I see when women notice that they have been noticed? Can I just see the results of other men's gaze or can I get enough emotional distance to coolheadedly review the effects of my own actions?

That's sweet of you to say - so many people who post here deserve my respect, and that is especially true of the porn addict's significant others. There are some very brave women here.