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The battle is in the mind, not in the loins . . .

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by Dr. J, Jan 18, 2016.

  1. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    Greeting my fellow companions on the "Road Less Fapped". ;)

    I seem to have one stumbling block, it manifests like this. When I've had a good day, and I've been immersed in other activities, meaningful ones, my wife goes to bed and I just head up after her, read, talk, whatever, and it was a good day. When it's not good, I feel like I've been resisting PMO all day, fighting it, engaged in it and weary from resisting, worn down, and about 9:00pm I can feel my mind start to undermine my own best intentions. In the place where I make my decisions, I can feel the wrong decision formulating. I'm going to make up my mind that I need to fap, and then just wait for my wife to go to bed so I can start. Occasionally if I have this mental fatigue in bed, then I'll wait for the morning and rub one out when she's gone before I go to work.

    It's not the same mental mechanism as reaching toward the computer browser and not finding the strength to change my mind, it's making up my mind long before I physically "live the choice" out to fail. The battle of the mind has been lost, the surrender of the penis is just a foregone conclusion. I've got lots of tools, tools that work to get up from the computer and get my mind temporarily off of it, but no tool to REVERSE a bad decision once it's been made, but not implemented. My bad decisions feel inevitable. How do you retract a bad decision before it's too late if you feel like you've been doing that all day and you're worn down? (I'm going to post this in the self-improvement thread as well in case some people only hang out over there - feel free to comment on either one or both).
     
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  2. Vanaleto

    Vanaleto Fapstronaut

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    I have also lived through the situation you described and not once.

    One thing that helped me on the road of comprehension what's going on in my head was a text about a Catholic saint, Francis de Sales, who once said sin is basically every self-destructive act we commit (we can all agree then that PMO is self-destructive behaviour) and every act begins with an intention. So when you are drawn or tempted to decide, that is, to form an intention to do a self-destructive act like PMO, your mind presents to you a promise of pleasure this act will bring based upon your past experiences and/or your imagination. If you dwell on it, eventually you will only think about the forthcoming pleasure but not the consequences or all the downsides this act may involve. Then it is only a matter of time when you will give in.

    To prevent this, you must train yourself to also remember the negative aspects of giving in to the temptation of PMO. I'm not talking about just intellectually keeping in mind you don't really want to do it (because a part of you always does) but training yourself to remember that awful feeling of disappointment and self-loathing you feel immediately after you do it. Remembering how it felt just, like you are remembering how good it feels when you are working yourself up to it. This is basically rewiring of your brain so you don't respond only to pleasure but also negative stimulus not to do it.

    Of course, this is actually the second step. The first step always must be not to think about it when the idea first comes into your mind. Never give yourself time for your imagination to start working or to start planning how and where to do it at the first possible opportunity. To maximize your chances, you have to keep to a strict daily schedule so not to leave room for idile thought. Also always have some kind of activity you can do to occupy your mind and body fully so every other idile thought is pushed out of your mind.
     
  3. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    This is a very, very good area of concentration. Thanks. The justification I feel, and the rationalization I make is "I'm worn out, I deserve a break from this fight, I'll get right back into it, but I'm going to take a couple of hours off" . . . I might even think "I know I'll feel bad afterward, and I don't care, I'll just endure feeling bad, I can always feel good again later". It's sinister, deceptive and crazy-making. I'm also in alcohol/drug recovery, and that rationalization sounds crazy when it comes to alcohol, because I'm only one drink away from my past becoming my future . . . there is no "one drink", that will turn into a long relapse. Speaking of "intentions" . . . I think my problem is I haven't totally turned my back on porn forever with a "forever commitment" like I have booze and pills. I haven't made a clean break . . . in my mind. Something is holding me back.
     
  4. LakeMichigan

    LakeMichigan Fapstronaut

    This is very well discussed in "Staying Sober: A Guide for Relapse Prevention" ( by Terence Gorski..)
    As you have noted to fap or not is a foregone conclusion you are just merely doing the physical act as your mind already surrendered to the urge. In the book they describe what they call dry drunks ( this book is related to alcoholism but I am assuming it applies to all addicts) which means their state of mind is already bad for other reasons and actually drinking alcohol makes them feel better. Like all addicts we need to focus on our emotional well being and find out what are our stressors and address those. Fortunately relapse is a process and you can arrest the slide if you are already aware of the symptoms. I very much encourage you to read it
     
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  5. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    What's vexing is I follow those exact principles for alcohol relapse prevention, but cannot seem to follow them for PMO relapse prevention.
     
  6. Vanaleto

    Vanaleto Fapstronaut

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    Crucial difference between doing battle against alcohol/drug addiction is: (a) while alcohol/drugs are overtly bad for you and you can see them destroying your body and mind, there are no such obvious bad consequences with PMO (as you have yourself already written, you feel bad for a time and then you get better) but the most damming aspect of addiction remains: it slowly takes over your life and little by little you lose your freedom; (b) while alcohol/drugs are just substances you intake and you can live without, PMO is a perversion of your natural sexuality, your drive to reproduce, which is a part of you, of your very being, so you can't actually expel it from your life like some addictive substance. But the good news is you don't have to.

    As I see it, you have to hate the very fact of something like addiction controlling you, feeling a strong repulsion to anything which takes away your freedom. This works for substance addictions but you can't just copy/paste it to PMO because you can end up hating yourself and that leads to depression and generally destroys your psychic defences and any self-control you might have. You have to make a distinction in your mind between your sexuality and porn which twists your sexuality so you lose your equilibrium and any freedom of choice you have. Also you have to be careful not to start thinking all the time about how you don't want to do it anymore, that's something I call 'negative obsession' - all the mental energy you once used to indulge in this addiction to porn is now being used to supress it, in a way you are still not free because you still think about porn, but now you are thinking about 'not-thinking-about-porn'.

    That's why everything I wrote about up till now is not enough. It's not enough just to hate your addiction and how it takes away your freedom, it's not enough trying to supress the urge when it comes, because your sexuality is a part of you and you need to be a sexual being or just supressing it will lead to a mayor relapse. That's why you need a positive and natural way how to burn up and use your sexual energy. Some do it by exercise for example, but you are blessed by the fact you have a wife who can help you more directly in so many ways.

    I will not pry into your marital intimacy, but only try to give some general advice as I see it. If you haven't told her about this yet and you feel your marriage is strong enough to share this, tell her and ask her to be your emotional support in this - after all, this is the point of marriage. Concentrate all of your sexual energy on your relationship with her and I'm not talking only about sex here: invest yourself romantically, do romantic gestures, seek not only the sexual act but emotional coupling also with foreplay and being playful in bed, experiment etc. Point is, let your sexuality express itself the way it was meant to - with another human being you are in love with. Goal is to associate any and all sexual urge with a strong emotional and corporal experience one has when making love so that going back to porn and 'hand-jacking' looks and feels like a poor, pale and undesirable supstitute.

    I hope some of this helps because I can only speak from my own experience.
     
  7. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    I've got some responses to write here but heading out to an appointment first . . . quick reaction, this is very thought provoking, and really good food for thought. Stand by . . . .
     
  8. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    OK . . . nice thoughts here. So by self-hatred in this context, you mean you're liable to start hating yourself because your very own sexuality is perverted, or twisted by porn, and yet your sexuality IS YOU. And because you hate what your own sexuality/libido is doing to you, your may also cut through to hating yourself? I'm trying to figure out if I hate, or resent what I have become, or what I managed to do to myself, or how I feel about me in general, being 66 years old and not treating myself well all this time. I feel a pity for myself, not "self-pity", but maybe sympathy that I'm this broken down.

    Well . . . this is sound advice. My wife is a breast cancer survivor and the aftercare drugs have crippled her libido, and being sexual is somewhat of a struggle . . . she's also not young anymore . . . that's no excuse, it just puts another layer of complexity on what I'm trying to do. It's really rebuilding the entire physical part of the marriage, and if I tell her, the emotional part. It might destroy her capacity to trust me, she hates porn, and without knowing what I do, said so and talked out how much it exploits women and is also devastated when she thinks I'm comparing her to other women unfavorably. Telling her is a huge risk, but it would have a huge benefit if she could deal with it and knew why I did it. Hmmm . . . . I'd have to really be courageous... and it may not be the wisest choice. I don't know.
     
  9. Vanaleto

    Vanaleto Fapstronaut

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    I understand your problem regarding your wife. She probably feels she lost some of her identity as a woman and attractiveness because of the cancer and if you tell her about your struggle with PMO she might feel like you don't find her attractive anymore and have replaced her in a way with unrealistic fantasy women. Maybe you should put of telling her about any of it until situation she builds up her confidence... Has it maybe crossed your mind your temptation with PMO started because of your wife's illness and subsequent inability to have a normal sex life until she recovers?

    I feel the road to recovery for both of you is the same: in mutual support and rebuilding that physical intimacy you two once had (as you said yourself). If PMO is in itself an expression of a selfish desire for physical self-gratification, maybe giving yourself to the other person for that person's sake and wellbeing out of love is a way out of the spiral of PMO addiction. I
     
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  10. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Haven't read all this thread yet, but something resonated with me in the first few posts. That bit about a thought enters the mind, and then you go on to ENTERTAIN it. It really has to be nipped in the bud as a fellow poster has pointed out. Case in point, I had a date with a cute girl, the next morning I was thinking about the previous night, and before I knew it my mind had raced ahead of itself to indulge in a full on fantasy. And then I realised, what the heck is this! That is, I became conscious [self-conscious?] of the fantasy playing itself out in my mind. And this was the crossroads at which my Will found itself- I could either acquiesce to the fantasy- allow it to continue, fully cognizant of it [the 'intention' referred to by a previous poster]; OR, I could just say NO and get up out of bed to start my day. I am happy to report I did the latter!

    All the best! Go Hard!

    PS. I agree with you that the battle is in the mind. But also add that it more central than that- it is in the Will!
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2016
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  11. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    I sometimes wonder if the entire intellectual and imaginative art of the ancient, medieval, and classical traditions combined were not just an exercise to occupy our mind in order to keep the dark thoughts at bay. We are so lucky to be able to avail ourselves of such resources. If only people would.....

    And +1 to Vanaleto's posts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2016
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  12. LakeMichigan

    LakeMichigan Fapstronaut

    I kinda noticed this behavior as well and it is not just with porn. My mind used to "race" whenever I had some thought for ex: I come up with a clever idea making money which may or may not be original and my mind would race to imagine all sorts of possibilities about how I am going to implement it and how I am going to make money etc..and I wondered why I would do that for an idea which may or may not even be practical. When I was watching celebrity rehab I noticed for the first time some one else mentioned that their mind is racing for no reason..first I thought hmm that was weird..but after sometime in to my reboot I noticed how my mind kinda slowed down in certain situations and now it has been a long time since I encountered such a situation so my conclusion is that probably my mind circuitry changed and raced to get that dopamine hit when I was a full on P addict and rebooting is slowly changing that.
     
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  13. Vanaleto

    Vanaleto Fapstronaut

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    I've been experiencing all of this we have been talking about for the last couple of days. So no longer that much of an urge, but rather a tempting thought which just won't go away. Then I remembered this thread and it dawned on me I could try to examine the workings of my own mind to find out why I can't get rid of that "little voice in my head" urging me to take up my phone and go browse porn. And I came to a small epiphany of a sorts: reason why thoughts about going online and watching porn won't leave my mind is I don't want to let them go because they comforting to me in some way. In moments of great stress, sickness and fatigue after a long day my strength of will is diminished and only that, I become pensive and indulging in fantasies of escape to somewhere less stressful and eventually it comes to erotic fantasies which lead to other things. Those erotic fantasies and thoughts about browsing porn/watching porn basically become a fast and cheap way to get comfort and relaxation - I presume this is because of the dopamine surge brain experiences when masturbating. But it's a false comfort, I have not solved any of my problems, real or emotional. I have just pushed them away for another time.

    I listen to audiobooks and I found this one the other day, I think it could help so I will give it a try: http://audiobookbay.cc/audio-books/...er-self-destructive-behavior-richard-oconnor/

    Who knows, maybe it gives me more insight how to deliberately 'rewire' my brain not to associate comfort and relaxation during stress and fatigue with PMO so much.
     
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  14. LakeMichigan

    LakeMichigan Fapstronaut

    I have a routine of yoga, exercise and meditation that I try to follow everyday and I am trying to make it as automatic as brushing my teeth. I am not there yet but this is purely mental strategy that should help me relieve stress in the long run. Some days I see how beneficial they are in relieving stress but sometimes I don't see as much as I have so much going on that I even forget or don't have time to do my routine. But I know and feel that this routine anchors me every day.
     
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  15. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    That's certainly what Freud said! :rolleyes:
     
  16. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    Man I am soooooooo tracking with you. Thanks for taking the time to come here and post this. You said one thing that I'm finding as a key as well, willingness and it's partner, resolve. I talk a really good game about "wanting to be free from the tyranny of PMO", but in the midnight hour, (stress, sickness, fatigue and I would add boredom), I want porn, my willingness is secondary to my lusts and cravings . . . TO THE POINT I worship the satisfaction of those cravings to the sacrifice of everything else in my life. When I fail it's because I'm not WILLING to live without dopamine. I told my therapist "it's like my penis is a hypodermic needle full of high dose morphine". Yes, there is a comfort, but it's the false comfort, fleeting and not truly satisfying in the long run! I have to admit my unwillingness in the moment, try to learn from it, I believe in a higher power so I have to examine, with the higher power, my stubbornness and horrible lack of resolve, own it and try to find that one spark, ember, anything I can fan of my commitment to leave the fucking plantation because Masa has freed me, instead of hanging around picking cotton because that's the only life I've known.

    I also told my therapist "I'm like a starving man, seeing porn when I've been abstaining is like devouring food after not eating for 3 or 4 days" and he said "what else can you feed yourself"?? LOL! You got me Doc. Writing, meditation, working out, coming here, playing bass. Feed your mind healthy food and you'll grow a health mind. Condition it with care and it will love you back!!!!
     
  17. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Yes, sex is reality. Against modernity [puritanism/ rationalism], Freud recognized an essential link between reality and sex. Something the ancients knew 2000 years ago, yet they connecting Eros to the reality of divine love. Their achievement was the sublimation of erotic longing into spiritual longing.

    The classical tradition managed to restrain and redirect our passion in a nobler cause. Repression came with the Puritans... and we all know that doesn't work- our passionate nature must break out, or find release, one way or another.

    The problem with the 'post-modern, post-Freud, anything goes' mentality, which the world is sliding into today, is that though it recognizes the reality of sex, it has no way of sublimating it. We end up wallowing in it.

    Thinking of Freud, and his terminology...

    Super Ego
    Ego
    Id

    ..... the problem seems to have always been how to escape the ego. Sublimation is a virtuous move upward. P is an escape downward into the libido and vice. I remember reading a book in my student days titled 'Beyond Virtue'. That kind of thing hardly rings true when you have experienced the pit of vice.

    Sublimation: the diversion of the energy of a sexual or other biological impulse from its immediate goal to one of a more acceptable social, moral, or aesthetic nature or use.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2016
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  18. Dr. J

    Dr. J Fapstronaut

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    When you say "the ancients", do you have a particular group or writer in mind, you're dating it roughly back to the time of Christ. So it's not the Romans :rolleyes: . . . the Greeks before them maybe.

    Great thought . . . I'm trying to do two things in my recovery, and own personal re-boot, number 1, discipline my mind QUICKLY, put in on a short leash, and two, discover the spiritual energy I seek in order to have the life I was born for. I'm trying hard to look at NoFap and no porn and spiritual discovery as an adventure. . . . what will I discover next? What doors will open? I guess Arthurian in nature, like Parsifal looking for the Grail. . . adventure after adventure and then the culmination, the bounty and overflowing blessing of God from the cup. That's the ideal I have to hold in my mind. I'm not talking about being a Religious Joe, I mean the fullness of a live real lived, as you said after a "nobler cause".

    I don't think you ever escape the ego. The ego is functional and useful, but meant to have boundaries and limits. I think the ego is turned to service of the "self", the deeper place of real connection between God and man. That's where Jung departed forever from Freud, Jung not only theorized but experienced this other dimension of the "self". He knew it was real. That to me is what sublimation is, turning the ego to serve the self. . . it's the self that disciplines the mind, puts in on a short leash for it's own good. I've been PMO free for only 4 days, but I've had so many opportunities to fail. The only thing that's kept me from failing is that I've been experimenting with not letting my mind linger for a single minute on a PMO thought, or temptation, or staring at a really cute girl . . . . I've been snapping the leash!
     
  19. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Yep, all the way back to Greek and Roman antiquity, where a long tradition begins in Western culture that stretches all the way through the medieval only to start unravelling in the Reformation and Rationalism. This is where I see the crucial break, or divide - before the Will was central, and afterwards reason became central.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
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  20. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Thanks. Yeah, I think puritanism has a lot to answer for. The first simplistic ideology for the masses, not too mention its fanaticism.

    I think you hit the nail on the head there - 'discipline... and...discover the spiritual energy'. Erotic/ carnal energy needs to be converted to spiritual energy [there's conversion for you:rolleyes:], and yes, as you suggest, this is not something that can be parroted in the mind, but something lived out in the fuller reality of your spiritual/ psychological life. And when I use the word 'psychology', I much prefer ancient Greek psychology to Freud's. When the Will is considered central, then Art becomes much more than a commodity for the middle classes to idle away there time, but a way of life, dare I say salvation.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2016
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