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Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Waldo101, Jun 15, 2017.
Facts? Hahahaha, in your dreams.
Yeah fairness and equity in social groups of social species is an observed fact.
Respectfully - one man's thoughts.
Defining morality as well being seems problematic to me. Who's well being? I assume you mean the well being of all. This is how I would define morality - as collective rather than individual. The actions that lead to the greatest well being for as many as possible. Do you agree?
Now - if every individual needs to figure out on their own what objective morality is - this seems doomed to fail to me. I know that at some times in my life what I thought was good for myself and others turned out not to be. I have done things that I thought was good for others and later discovered that they weren't. Someone else might have a different idea what is good for them than I do. I submit that a casual observation of the world and the people in it shows that I am not the only one to have experienced this. If everyone defined their own morality there would be as many moral codes as people, multiplied by the number of times they change their own. Do you see a fault in this reasoning?
I believe that, for the most part, based on my observations of people, study of human history and the daily news, people give themselves too much credit rather than not enough. Perhaps some are capable of coming to relatively good understandings of some kind of objective morality, but most are clearly not. Even those who purport to follow objective moral codes (such as many Christians) end up subverting those codes for their own purposes. Do you disagree?
Based on the above understanding, which seems reasonable to me, I fail to see how any one can claim that they have figured out an objective morality on their own. Humans simply are too limited, have too narrow of a perspective to do this. Should there be an objective morality, it would have to have been designed and/or known only by some entity that has a much wider, longer, and deeper perspective than me or anyone else I've met.
At this time, I'm not trying to convince anyone that the God of the bible is that entity. I'm merely stating that it appears to me that objective morality is imposible without such a being and knowledge of its thoughts.
Could some extraordinarily wise individual, such as the Buddha, have been such a being? He didn't claim to be a god - but (with my limited understanding and perspective) I find that his moral code could possibly be a good one. I suppose a Buddhist who strictly followed the moral teachings of the Buddha could be an athiest and claim that there is an objective morality. That brings another question to mind - did the Buddha, or any other human, figure objective morality out? I can not claim to answer this question. If anyone else can propose such a code - I would be interested in looking into it.
I hope somebody finds my thinking in writing of some use. Peace.
Morality is just as real as our sense of rationality and freedom. Just as I ask what is true as opposed to false, [which presupposes the freedom to choose] so too do I ask what I ought to do. Here is the beginning of morality for you... and the absolute nature of 'the ought' leads both to all societies having some moral code, and the thought that there is some absolute standard to conform to.
I don't believe there is an objective morality but I believe we can be objective in making moral statements when we use well being as our metric. Well being as in that which minimizes suffering, overall suffering. I would say the Buddha did not "figure out" objective morality, I think the middle way stands in opposition to a definitive moral truth. There are moral obligations and then there are moral virtues.. for example, a child is playing in the middle of a road and is about to get hit by a car and you could get that child out of harms way without any risk of harm to yourself. In this scenario I would say it's a moral obligation to save that child. Flip the scenario to where you know you will lose your life saving the child, you wouldn't be morally obligated to do it but it would always be morally virtuous to do so. Being a social species it is in our benefit to benefit others and it is evolutionarily hard wired into us to have empathy towards each other, just like everything else with genetic variation there is a spectrum that we all fall on of what our moral and ethical values are and how we uphold and express them.
What you have wrote still didn't response to the points I've made.
Yes it does, all the laws and religions etc are themselves a reflection of a instinct for morality found in human nature [the ought]. Without it, there would be no laws and religion.
So there is no objective morality - the best thing possible is just every individual's earnest attempt at being nice? Maybe with the guidance of some wise people that they think are right?
I probably shouldn't have talked about Buddhism because I don't really know that much about it.
Correct there is no objective morality. If we are going to use the term morality at all it must mean that which minimizes suffering. Otherwise I don't see how the word could have any teeth. Funny thing about Buddhism is that it is an atheistic religion. It doesn't stress the worship of a deity and for that reason it holds a special place in my heart.
I respect your opinion and it seems to me consistent and well thought out.
I admit that it also seems a bit hopeless to me. Collectively, people will never do the right thing. I don't think they are even capable of it, based on my observations of this species. I believe in objective morality and that it lies within the bible. I have hope not because I think Christians can follow that code but because I believe that one day God will establish a kingdom based on this code, and that the establishment of that kingdom is already underway.
I also understand why such a belief might seem absurd to most. I can't even really defend it or explain why I believe it so firmly, the eyes of my heart simply see it.
Peace, and thanks for the civil discourse. Also, congrats on the high counter number, you must be doing something right.
Yeah man it's been a pleasure I find this stuff fascinating. Thanks and good luck on your journey! We are on the right path with nofap