To be free from porn you need to watch porn (in a different way)

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by ultrafabber, Jun 7, 2019.

  1. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    OK, so I'm late to the party, but this seems like a terrible idea. Either 1) you fail (which IMO seems likely) or 2) you succeed, in which case you've essentially made sex meaningless in your life - you've de-sensitised your brain to a *hard wired* stimulus. I once saw a guy interviewed who was married to a porn actress. He was a camera man on her set. They *never* had sex, because neither of them was turned on by it any more. That seems kind of sad - a bit like working in kitchen and never being able to enjoy food again.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
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  2. diep

    diep Fapstronaut

    Actually it is a very terrible idea. He is still a slave of porn. He has a twisted and flawed idea about porn addiction. But he has an army of aliases who are ready to attack personally anyone who opposed his wrong method. They will come in 3...2...1.
     
  3. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    It won't be the case, see this new topic i made that addresses your 2) https://www.nofap.com/forum/index.p...-you-get-aroused-by-women-on-a-screen.241099/

    Uhm, no?
     
  4. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    still don't agree. What you're proposing is basically the same as saying I can I can deal with overeating by surrounding myself with donuts to the point that my brain doesn't consider them to be food. I can't really see that as an effective weight loss strategy (or we'd all be doing it)...
     
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  5. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    See the prevoius page (4) on cue exposure therapy.
     
  6. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    Cues... Maybe? But 1. You're talking about the thing itself, not a cue (watching porn is the problem, not the trigger). And 2. We already live in a context that is saturated in sexualised imagery - so, by abstaining we are already doing what you suggest, resisting the cues that are around us every day....
     
  7. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    By abstaining you are not resisting the cue, you are ignoring it.

    The cue for masturbation and sexual arousal is porn and other images. There are cues for watching itself and i addressed those as well and those shiuld be trained first.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  8. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    I don't think that can be true. Literally every time I get in front of my computer I'm resisting a cue. Every time I turn on the TV, or drive past a bill board I'm choosing not to let my brain think of it as a source of gratification. That's resisting a cue to dwell on it, which leads to PMO. I'm just doing it several steps before having an actual video on the screen..
     
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  9. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Yes and no, you are resising a cue but a very minor one because you have dozens or hundreds of other powerful associations (unrelated to porn) with using a computer, especially your personal one.

    Things would've been different if you had used a computer specifically for porn and masturbation only.

    The cue sequence gets progressively stronger on the next ones
     
  10. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    so what you're actually talking about is ultra hard mode...

    Still think the risk of relapse and retrenching existing patterns is just too high
     
  11. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    For me ultra hard mode is running away from porn all of your life. I've been trying abstinence only and it's only been failure after failure, no feeling is as gutting as failing a long streak just to see you can get as aroused and as addicted to porn and binge as hard as you did before the streak. Living with constant fears of triggers and knowing you can spiral back to 0 at every moment.

    Relapse rate isn't really that much of a big deal, as i explained in the OP, long periods of abstinence followed by binges may actually be worse than shorter relapses. What happens in abstinence only is that your brain will still continue to see pmo as a reward and that's exactly what you need to un-train.

    What matters at the end of the day is how easy and fast you can get aroused by fantasy (sex fantasy, porn, images etc) and how easy you can ignore the reality that there is no woman near you. How easy it is for you to believe sex is going to happen and how easy it is for you to fabricate sexual availability.

    The truth is there is no sexual availability at all unless you have a real woman next to you that wants to have sex with you. Everything else is pathological.
     
  12. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    Well good luck, I think I'll watch from a safe distance until the science is more developed.
     
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  13. WalkingForward

    WalkingForward Fapstronaut

    We don't need to be desensitized to porn, it is absolutely possible to completely avoid (at least hard core) porn. Unless you're wasting time on very shady forums, and if that's the case, you should stop that and use the internet more productively.

    You are right that it is unavoidable to sometimes run in to triggers. I have tried desensitizing myself to my triggers, similarly to some of the recommendations in the OP. Most times, I have eventually ended up taking it too far and ended up relapsing.

    Rather, I think it's a better idea to have an emergency plan for when you get triggered. Like for example shutting down the browser and counting 1001-1010 for mild triggers or taking a walk for more challenging triggers.
     
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  14. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    These are some very, very strange recommendations you're giving to people. From a neuroscience point of view your explanation on addiction forming behavior is mostly correct. Brain transfers dopamine related (highly rewarding) long term repeated behaviors from Prefrontal cortex - PFC (rational thinking) to midbrain - "lizard" part of the brain (where automated behaviors are stored) to save on energy consumption resulting in Ego fatigue (loss of self control over behavior) -> PMO behavior becomes automatic (deep learned behavior). Addict needs to reconnect striatum (empowerment) to prefrontal cortex if he wants to take control over behavior (addiction) again.

    Additional to that, for most of us PMO was a coping mechanism (drug of choice) to suppress stressful emotions originating from underlying psych issues (dopamine, oxytocin and vasopressin during O have analgesic properties). When you abstain from O and don't address underlying issues stress will lead you to relapse. That's why complete lifestyle change including getting psychological help are necessary for successful recovery. Otherwise we'll forever stayed trapped in a cycle: abstention -> psych issues resurface -> stress buildup -> relapse -> abstention -> psych issues resurface -> stress buildup -> relapse...

    Exposing yourself to your drug of choice won't work because by the time you develop addiction, behavior is already literally deeply engraved into your midbrain and is there to stay. Watching P or M will lead to PMO until you abandon the behavior and develop new neuropathway (new behavior). Once you've abstained for a certain period (6-11 months) and replace old compulsive habit with a new healthy one (let's say having satisfying sex life), that's the time when P-M-O neurological pathway connection will be weakened to the point, you might be able to see P and not get cravings/react to it with MO. Getting rid of addiction is a long, difficult and painful process. Just exposing yourself to P and engage rational thinking (PFC) when your brain has already formed connection between P and survival (deep learned behavior in midbrain) won't work. You need to stop using neuropathway (PMO reboot in our case - best is hard or monk mode) and after half a year to a year you might be able to successfully apply your experiment. But by that time, you won't need to do it, because P cravings will mostly be gone as the old neuropathway weakens.

    Here is some sound scientifically backed advice how to overcome addiction:

    Nature of addiction and how to overcome it:


    1. Strengthen desire for other goals

    - identify and hold on to future goals by envisioning a future self, taking aims, and advancing towards that future self (CBT, mindfulness can help)
    2. Self-understanding (depression, anxiety) -> self-forgiveness -> self-trust

    [​IMG]


    Neuroscience of addition:


     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  15. WalkingForward

    WalkingForward Fapstronaut

    now I fell for my brain's rationalizations "maybe he's onto something, I should try exposing myself to a trigger"... ...and I relapsed.

    Some of the ideas expressed in the OP might sound good in theory but they are not a good idea.
     
  16. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    Yes. Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary evidence. We haven't seen any of that yet... Unless the OP is mid way through a PhD?
     
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  17. Bombadil

    Bombadil Fapstronaut

    Sorry to hear that man. Live and learn.
     
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  18. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    Relapses are part of the recovery… Don't feel stressed, guilty or ashamed over it. Learn from it and move on immediately. Think of NoFap as a path to the mountain top. You might stumble, fall and slip a few meters back, but as long as you stand up and keep walking towards the top, you'll get there.
     
  19. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Cravings do get extinguished in the long run, that is correct, however the actual behavior does not or is much less likely to get extinguished. That's why triggers get so many people, be it pmo addiction, alcohol addiction, drug addiction etc. Abstinence does nothing to modify the reaction to triggers. That's also why there are so many relapses in addiction, even after long periods of abstinence - the abstinence does nothing to train you for resisting a behavior.

    Exposing yourself to cues will work, that's the basis of exposure therapy. It's just that it needs to be done in a very careful, methodical manner, tailored to each individual's degree of addiction. The act of pmo is comprised by a chain of cues- behaviors and each one needs to be addressed. That's why i'm saying you should start very slow with something like just opening and closing the incognito window (if you used it for porn) hundreds of time, that's why you need to have a plan for when you get aroused (cold shower, hot pepper), that's why you need to watch the porn homepage without clicking any video and so on.

    Look at it this way, you had the courage to try something new and risk your streak, and that's something.

    Like i said in OP, this should not be used as an excuse to actually watch porn. Watching porn is the end-game. There are many other steps before getting into that.

    You have to take it one step at a time, exposing yourself to the incognito window only for a week or something, then just type a porn site address and close the window for another week or two, then watching the porn homepage without clicking any video etc. These behaviors need to be repeated dozens or hundreds of times to work. It's just step by step approach.

    Most importantly, this will not work if you still hold on to the belief that masturbation is normal and that getting sexual gratification alone (without a woman) is normal and that you're missing out if you don't do it.

    I will however add another line in the opening paragraph emphasizing that watching porn is the endgoal and that there are many other steps before that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  20. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I disagree… Brain scan studies of long term former addicts (5-25 years) show a different picture. Deep learned behavior in midbrain-neurological pathway stays engraved in gray matter for life but neurological connection does weaken and gets closed if it's not being used after a certain period of time. That's why 6-11 months of abstinence is a must (time needed to regrowth gray matter in prefrontal cortex, D receptors count and weaken pmo connection). During the abstinence period addict needs to start forming new dopamine rewarding neurological pathways (deep learned behaviors) to replace the old compulsive addictive habit. Exposing yourself to P when PMO neuropathway highway is still well and functional will only lead to relapse. You can't negotiate with your midbrain. For them PMO neuropathway = survival (just like breathing). You need to weaken the pathway by not using it for a period of time first, replace it with other dopamine/serotonin rewarding behavior and only then you might be able to get exposed to P without falling back into PMO rabbit hole (reactivating old PMO neuropathway). I say might because old PMO connection will always stay with you, even if in dormant state and there will always be a real chance that it gets reopened if trigger is present, especially in a time of highly stressful events. It's basic neuroscience. Addiction=deep learned behavior (DLB) and DLBs stay with us for life unfortunately.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  21. WalkingForward

    WalkingForward Fapstronaut

    One of my main goals, that I think I share with most others, is to waste less time on unproductive web surfing. This is not conducive for that.

    We don't need to be desensitized to porn. If you time-traveled and showed a caveman porn, he would probably get aroused by it despite not having any prior experience of it.

    We will get triggered and tempted. And we need to learn to handle that. But I think there are safer and better methods than those you have been describing here.
     
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