To have children, or not, or later?

Good luck finding a virgin girl in this degenerate age that is 2021

 

This is just me, and I know and don't expect anyone to share my personal view- also I believe that having children is a perfectly respectable and ethical things to do- but for me 1) I'm too messed up myself to bring a little one in this world 2) I'm not interested in having children- I like my freedom to do whatever I want with my life and 3) not having children is a great way to reduce your carbon footprint and reduce the strain on our overcrowded world. Therefore I fully expect to remain childless my whole life.

 

I don’t really care at this point. I tried to convince you of my viewpoint but instead you choose to be disrespectful and make insults because your a pussyboy who doesn’t know how to craft an argument. Your ignored and blocked. Don’t come crying to me when your dying of the virus and need medical attention because you made a careless decision not to get the vaccine.

 

Hah these times are certainly scummy, you’ve got that right, but I’ve met girls from good families who have remained virgins before, and I am pretty sure I will again, particularly as I’m still on the younger side of the spectrum. I know what I want, and I’m not going to lower my standards.

 

As someone who is about to become a father next month, I've always wanted to have a family of my own and see it as something which will add to the richness and color of my life experience. I'm lucky to have a great partner who is beautiful, kind and supportive and both of us have similar views about how we want to lead our lives and raise a family.

I'm sure it will be exhaustive, stressful and one can never *really* know how our kids will turn out in the end... But I do look back at my own childhood with fond memories and the fun times I've had with my own parents and wish to raise a kid or two and try to give them as good a life as I possibly can. If anything, it motivates me to take better care of myself, work harder at my job and not to fuck up again and succumb to my weaknesses.

 

I understand you very well and I want to tell you that I should think about the future, as you should. I'm a girl, but I'm signed by a guy. I think I need psychological help before I start a family. Who do you think I can talk to about that? I'm a workaholic woman and I think it's a problem.

 

for me until now
i need to know it philosophicaly then i bring somone here to suffer together...
i need to know story of whole human consciousness and existence theory first.
(im researching around years)
then i can decide to bring somone in here or take out my own life!?

 

Half this thread is pretty much just a glorified summary of My Twisted World: the Story of Elliot Rodgers

 

You know, I know what you mean. I've dealt with working mom burnout. My ex-wife worked very hard and hardly rested, and I want you to know it's going to have some bad consequences. I think you should check out this article calmerry.com/blog/parenting/8-ways-to-avoid-burnout-as-a-working-mom/. My wife got into psychology at one time and that is what saved her and helped her get out of the burnout pit. I want to tell you that after the divorce, despite all the situations, we found common ground. It's all because she started working on herself

 

Just chiming in to recommend keeping the Covid talk out of this thread. About half this thread is derailed.

 

I can understand your opinion perfectly. Until a certain age, you live with the idea that first I make a career, I settle down, I live for myself, I travel, and you don't even notice how this period stretches, and you reach 36 years old.

 

Man, I relate to this so much. I'm a woman, so my experience differs slightly, but I worry about this fairly often.

When my husband and I got married, we both assumed we would have kids. We both said we wanted that. A few years ago, however, I realized that I really wasn't sure if I wanted that anymore. At first I started to panic, because I essentially married this man with a sort of promise that I wanted to be a mother, and it wouldn't be fair to him to say "never mind" flippantly. However, when I really thought about the way we live our life and my husband's actions as well, I realized I wasn't so sure he really wanted to be a parent either.

So I mustered up the courage to talk about it, and thankfully, he felt about the same way I did. Whew!

Now, we have had this conversation many times. In fact, we just had it again a few weeks ago, because I was feeling that stress of "what if you regret not having kids later," because everybody tells you you will. Not to mention the fact that if you're a woman who chooses not to have kids, you get to hear all kinds of comments about how you're worthless and should pretty much just go off yourself because you're not contributing to society in any way unless you're raising children. I'm sure men get these comments as well, but I really haven't seen them directed at men as often as they have been directed at me and other women. I find that absurd, because clearly there are many other ways to contribute to society than just to raise children. A doctor could save a lot more lives if they had no family to go home to and dedicated more of their time to their work. That's just one example.

But still, I've felt that fear of potential regret. But for me, my mind was set at ease for a different reason. I'm a Christian, and when I was feeling this fear again recently about potentially getting to an older age and feeling like I don't have anything to live for or any joy or passion in my life because I'm not a parent, I was reminded of two things:

1) that my joy and passion comes from God, not from whatever I happen to be doing at the time. And whether I have children or not, God is always going to be there, so I will have no shortage of joy in my life if I look to the proper source for it.

And 2) there is a passage in the Bible that talks about how it's better to be single, because you have more time to devote to God when you don't have the responsibilities that come along with marriage. Now, I'm already married, but clearly if Paul says it's good to be single, that would also have to mean that it's acceptable to remain without children. Because a single person who is following God (i.e. not fornicating) would never have children. So that was a helpful reminder to me that God must see more potential to my existence than JUST the path of becoming a mother.

I realize those points might not matter to anyone who isn't a Christian, but I'm just sharing my experience of what helped me to see things differently.

Anyway, my husband and I are still on the path of thinking it's possible we may have kids someday, but not very likely. Especially because we don't want to have kids unless we could at least have one of us be home with them (ideally both) and if we could homeschool them, which at this moment wouldn't be possible with our careers. We could probably make it happen, but it would require a lot of sacrifices that neither of us are really willing to make at this point.

So that's where I'm at. But I wanted to point out one thing you said that I think is extremely problematic thinking:

There is absolutely nothing "beta" about stepping up to the plate to be a good step-father for the children of a woman you love. And to be honest, the fact that you think this way seems to me to be a good indication that you aren't ready to be a parent. Because raising children isn't about silly, trivial things like "I don't want to look like a beta for raising another man's kids." Those kids don't care if you look like a beta (which is, by the way, a completely ridiculous term in the first place, but that's a whole other conversation). They just want to have a good, dependable man in their life who can be an example to them of what a good man looks like. What could be more "alpha" (I seriously cringe to even succumb to this idiotic terminology, but I'll play along for a minute) than stepping in to sweep a woman and her children off her feet and say "don't worry, sweetheart. I'll show these kids what it means to be a real man and a good father." The only beta-male in that situation is the deadbeat who abandoned his children to let another man have to pick up his slack. The whole alpha/beta thing is stupid to me, but even if I agreed with that mindset, I really don't understand how the good step-father in this situation would be a beta male... it seems exactly the opposite to me. But regardless...

If you aren't capable of loving a child who isn't yours biologically, I honestly don't think you have the right heart to be a good parent at this time. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that's just my personal opinion. I think that's a really disgusting mindset.

All of the things you described, about wanting to see grandchildren and raise s family, you could have if you let go of the "passing on your bloodlines" part of it. Which, to me, seems the most trivial part of it all anyway, and should be easy to let go of.

The fact is, at your age. unless you choose to date women much younger than you, it isn't very likely that you are going to find a partner this late in the game and have a bunch of biological children with her. But you could absolutely find a partner who has children who need a father, and you could have a family that way, and it could certainly be a very fulfilling life. You could see your grandkids and be a good father and grandfather, if you choose to stop thinking about bloodlines in the way you do an accept that family is much more than blood.

Another option that you didn't mention is adoption. But again, you have to let go of that idea that family must be your blood if you're going to adopt. But that is certainly an option. There are plenty of children, especially slightly older children, who need good homes, and they don't care if their dad is 36 and their mom is past the age of being able to give birth. That's not a factor anymore.

So you said to please tell you that you are wrong about what you wrote and that you do have more time and opportunities. And I am saying yes, you are definitely wrong to say that it's a "beta" move to be a loving step-father (sorry, but what on earth could be "beta" about raising children, especially boys, and giving them an example of what a good man and good father look like?), and you DO have more opportunities. You have the option to consider women who already have children and you have the option of adopting. Those options are there, but they require a significant change in perspective. Which I personally think is a necessary change if you're going to be a father at all, even if you have children biologically.

 

Also, in regards to this:

When I was 19, I dated a guy who was 33. I don't chose my partners because of their age. Age honestly means very, very little to me. I really likes that guy, and I told him I liked him and then he told me he was 33. I was really shocked, because I thought he was a bit older, but I was thinking more like mid-to-late twenties. But it took me about 5 seconds to move on from surprise to "who cares?"

Did I have other guys my age to choose from? Absolutely. But I liked him more than those guys. I've always liked older guys, actually, because I want someone who is mature and on the same page as me in life, and guys my age were not. I think you will actually find that to be the case for a lot of women these days. A lot of 25yo guys have no interest in settling down, getting married, having kids, etc. So if you're looking for a young woman who wants those things, you might be just the refreshing breath of fresh air she's been searching for and not finding.

If you like someone, why would it matter how old they are? There are only a handful of reasons that should be an issue. One of which would be reproduction, but you're lucky to be a man. If a 36yo woman was in your shoes, she wouldn't have the option of dating someone younger to regain her fertility.

I think you, and most men probably, overestimate how important things like looks and age and status and money are to women. Sure, some women value those things above all else, just like some shallow men refuse to date anyone who doesn't look like a supermodel. But that's not all women (just like that's not all men), and in my experience it's not even the majority of women.

Most decent people care more about personality than anything else. So if you have other factors working against you, like your age, but you have an amazing personality, that's going to be good for you. The guy I dated in college, who was 14 years older than me, was extremely kind, loving, fun, goofy, and on fire for God, which was extremely important to me. Because he had all of those things, when I found out about his age, it didn't matter to me in the slightest. It played no factor at all in whether or not I wanted to date him. He was the kind of person I was looking for at the time, and the fact that he would have been ready to get married was a huge factor, and one that didn't seem to be true for a lot of the other guys who were closer to my age.

 

I used to be that guy who wanted to only date women who looked like supermodels but now I'm not so bothered about physical appearance. Don't I still think physical appearance is important but if a girl is kinda pretty I can get into her. Maybe it's because growing older but nowadays less petty and care more meaningful things like personality and character.

 

There are doctors in my family and I can say with all honesty that this statement is neither true nor supported by evidence. What actually happens is that the family has no dad coming home in the evening, and he comes home to a cold supper because he was caring for that emergency patient. Doctors often are workaholics--whether by choice, or by necessity, or by training...I do not know.

I find it curious that with your other Biblical supports for not having children you have not included the one that I would feel the strongest for the times in which we live: that the world is near its end and it is not the best time to be having children. Jesus pronounced a "woe" upon those mothers who had suckling babes at the time they needed to flee. Has this concern not crossed your mind?

 

Seems like you completely misunderstood the point of what I was saying. I was merely using an analogy to say that if someone remains single, they have more free time and less personal responsibilities, and there are other things they can dedicate their time to that would be beneficial to society. I wasn't making a statement about doctors who have families not being dedicated workers. That's not what I was saying at all.

I really don't think this is the place to have a Biblical debate, but I completely disagree with you on that. First of all, we have no idea if "the world is coming to an end." People have been saying that for many, many years, and the Bible tells us not to speculate about such things.

I'm not sure what passage you're talking about regarding the mothers, but clearly if the world was literally ending and a mother was having to flee for her life with a baby in her arms, obviously that would be difficult and it would be much easier to do without a baby. But I hardly think that is relevant to today, right now. Nor do I think that statement is some kind of warning to make women afraid to have children because the world might end. That seems incredibly silly to me, and I have a feeling you're probably taking some things out of context there.

But again, this isn't really the place for a Biblical debate about end times. That's a completely different subject.

 

Where did you get the idea that I was debating? Was it because I asked you a question?

If you don't like being asked questions, just say so, and I will ask no more. In fact, because I believe that questions are a normal part of a normal conversation and show interest in another person's thoughts and perspectives, if you are averse to questions, it might be best that we block each other so as not to be tempted to converse.

My question was genuine. I know many people who have had the very thought I asked you about. And it's a question of historical interest as well: consider the Shakers. Seeing the signs of the times is what has made me afraid of having children. As I said, I'm not debating. I'm serious. And I was honestly curious as to whether this had been at all on your mind. But you chose to characterize it as a debate?

Spoiler: Biblical References

And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! (Matthew 24:19, KJV)

For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. (Luke 23:29, KJV)

It wasn't a debate at all, and it is entirely on topic to the point of whether or not to have children. While the "end times" themselves might be a separate topic, if one perceives that such times are either here or are imminent, this view will most certainly influence one's decision whether or not to have children. It might be just as relevant as, say, choosing whether or not to have children when one has just been diagnosed with late-stage cancer.

But I will allow you to debate these things in your own mind, for I am not here to debate.

 

Geez louise, dude. You seem hell bent on misunderstanding me and attributing the most unfavorable interpretation of my every word. I never said you were debating me... I said that I don't think this is the place for a Biblical debate, which is what this will turn into if continued. "Debate" is not a dirty word to me, and I didn't mean it as such.

I know it was... I never said or implied that it wasn't. You seem to be offended by me using the word debate or something, but that's not necessary. "Debate" doesn't always mean some kind of rude, argumentative thing. It means a formal discussion/arguement (and the word arguement doesn't automatically have negative implications either). The dictionary example is "the board debated his proposal."

Replace the word debate with the word discussion, then, if you're going to be so upset about the word debate.

But that's the thing... I don't believe the world has just been diagnosed with late-stage cancer. Your question might have been on topic, but my response would not be, because my response would be entirely centered on the discussion of whether or not your premise is even true (that we are in the end times), which I don't believe it is. Which is why I said I don't think this is the place for that discussion (since you hate the word debate so much, apparently), and that it is a completely different subject that will be going very off topic.

I already answered your question, to the best of my ability, without derailing the entire thread into a discussion of end times. And I did so in good faith and respectfully. I don't see why this kind of snarky response was warranted, just because I used the word debate. It's just a word that means a formal discussion of a topic, usually where two parties disagree on something. I'm a huge fan of that kind of discussion, which I would call a debate.

But anyway, now we are off topic yet again, because of the word debate apparently being inflammatory. I think that's all I have to say. I did answer your question, to the best of my ability, so I'd appreciate you not acting as if I didn't say anything other than "you're trying to debate!" or something.

That's all I have to say about that