Vegan

Thanks for taking the time to respond. Let's just set some things straight here.


First up, B12.

B12 is the byproduct of bacteria that grows on plants, in soil, and in fresh water. In a 100% natural world without human interference, we would get it from those sources. But we wash our vegetables, don't have very nutrient rich soil, and treat our water to kill all bacteria, so you can't really get b12 naturally.

Yup, my B12 is organic, but that has nothing to do with the argument.
There are also many vegan foods, that are fortified with B12, so pills aren't the only source. I have no idea about B12 from pasture fed animals, never heard that argument before.


Also, we need to look at nutrition holistically. Red meat or oysters may be the foods with the most zinc, but you also ingest the saturated fat, cholesterol, animal protein and also engage in an act of cruelty.
I get my zinc from beans, greens nuts, seeds, whole grains etc.

I literally had my blood tested after I adjusted my nutrition and it was flawless, except the B12, like I already said, because I did not eat enough fortified foods or just taking a supplement.


Never heard about that whole amino acid thing, sources would be nice.
I eat chia seeds every day, no problem at all.





Soy is unhealthy ?

https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/soy/

Yeah right.




I would like to debate this seriously, but since you did not really have any sources whatsoever, it is hard to do so. You see, many studys are flawed, vegan studies obviously are not immune to that, so it would be fantastic if you could link the stuff from which you got most of your information and then we could come to a conclusion.









Explain to me how a cow or a pig are different from a dog ?
Name the one trait that justifys killing the one, and cuddling the other.

Also, why did you ignore the environmental and world hunger argument ?

 

@UsualSuspect Thanks for taking the time to respond. Let's just set some things straight here.


First up, B12.

B12 is the byproduct of bacteria that grows on plants, in soil, and in fresh water. In a 100% natural world without human interference, we would get it from those sources. But we wash our vegetables, don't have very nutrient rich soil, and treat our water to kill all bacteria, so you can't really get b12 naturally.

Yup, my B12 is organic, but that has nothing to do with the argument.
There are also many vegan foods, that are fortified with B12, so pills aren't the only source. I have no idea about B12 from pasture fed animals, never heard that argument before.
Fortified, do you know how stupid you sound? Do you honestly think that fortified minerals and vitamins are useful? Firstly, I meant organic, as in an organic molecule versus inorganic molecule. I did not mean organic, as in organically farmed or produced. Most Vitamin & Mineral supplements are inorganic forms. The human body isn't designed to absorb inorganic molecules, we can only absorb organic minerals & vitamins, which are usually bonded to an amino acid . Also all of the fortified vitamins in fortified food are most definitely inorganic molecules, so it isn't relevant as a B12 source.

Also a B12 analog is found naturally in the grass, herbivores can convert this into an active B12 source. This is how pasture raised animals get there B12. Humans cannot convert the B12 analog into its active form

Also, we need to look at nutrition holistically. Red meat or oysters may be the foods with the most zinc, but you also ingest the saturated fat, cholesterol, animal protein and also engage in an act of cruelty.
I get my zinc from beans, greens nuts, seeds, whole grains etc.
Firstly, oysters aren't high in saturated fat. Secondly, saturated fat is not the bad fat. Saturated fat doesn't just clog the arteries, its a lot more complex then that. In fact, saturated fat is the safest of all the fats. I'm studying a double major in both biochemistry and organic chemistry. I understand how these fats work within the body and saturated fat does not clog the arteries, theirs no biological processes for that. Also eating cholesterol is not a factor in heart disease. It is a lipid transporter, inflammation inflames the arteries and causes cholesterol to clog up, as cholesterol role is to heal plaque in the arteries, so it happens to be at the scene of the crime, but simply eating cholesterol is not a factor in heart disease or high cholesterol level.
Heart disease is caused by inflammation of the arteries, its that simple. Inflammation can be caused by stress, chemicals, gluten, dairy, sugar, too many carbohydrates and most of all vegetable oils. The true bad fats are the Omega 6 polyunsaturated fat, these inflame the body and cause heart disease.

Also are you even reading what I've said. Phytic acid in grains, beans and lentils stop absortion of ZINC, thats a fucking fact, thats not an opinion. Phytic acid exists in grains, its a real thing and what part of you need 30mg of Zinc a day for optimal health, maybe you should listen, rather then saying stupid things that make you sound like an idolt. Pumpkin seeds provide 6mg per cup of Zinc, you're not eating that much. Also nuts & seeds are way to high in inflammation fats to be a stable.
Also humans can't digest beans and wholegrains? explain that to me please? because so many people get inflammation from these 2 foods. There's a reason people are gluten free. You're also a damn fool if you think whole grains are high in nutrients

Also your comment about animal protein? Whats bad about it? It's eaiser to digest then other proteins? Proteins in other food produce an inflammation response

Watch all parts of this:


I literally had my blood tested after I adjusted my nutrition and it was flawless, except the B12, like I already said, because I did not eat enough fortified foods or just taking a supplement.
You're a blind fool whos just as bad as the majority of the population if you think a blood test is an accurate test for deficiency, I've also mentioned that the RDI was created in WW1 while rationing out food, it was to find the amount of a nutrient required to prevent disease. Most RDI are far off what is needed for optimal health

Also you haven't said anything about what I mentioned about Vitamin A, thoughts? Or will you admit you were wrong

Never heard about that whole amino acid thing, sources would be nice.
I eat chia seeds every day, no problem at all.

There's non-essential amino acids that are found in meat that are hard to come by in vegan diets. They may be called non-essential, but amounts of them are important to get in the diet for brain healthy





Soy is unhealthy ?

https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/soy/

Yeah right.

Cause one government site is enough to prove its good for you, stop being an idolt. Many people are aware of the dangers of Soy. It is one of the most unhealthiest foods you can put in your body and you're unable to accept that fact because you're to proud to be wrong? How about you look around on different blogs etc and get facts from the people and something thats actual science. Nutritionfacts.org is just some bullshit written by dietitians who don't know any better

Also did you not read what I said. Phytoestrogens, they are in Soy, thats another bloody fact. Phytoestrogens mimic estrogen in the human body. It causes infertility, stunted growth and breast cancer in women. They're facts, theirs no need to deny that, because you're to proud to be wrong. How can that be healthy? Seriously? No one can justify soy being healthy for any reason.

https://chriskresser.com/the-soy-ploy/ (read this)


I would like to debate this seriously, but since you did not really have any sources whatsoever, it is hard to do so. You see, many studys are flawed, vegan studies obviously are not immune to that, so it would be fantastic if you could link the stuff from which you got most of your information and then we could come to a conclusion.

Studies don't mean shit honestly, "studies show that high intake of saturated fat is linked to heart disease" "studies show that people who eat red meat are 30% likely to die from diabetes" blah blah fucking blah, its just statements that don't mean anything. Most dietitians seem to pull statistics out of there ass. The only thing that justify what type of food is healthy or not is Science. The biology and chemical processes that go on in the body when you eat a certain food. Different compounds in food and how they react in the body, that what matters. Not some bullshit study







Explain to me how a cow or a pig are different from a dog ?
Name the one trait that justifys killing the one, and cuddling the other.

We need cows or pigs for food

Also, why did you ignore the environmental and world hunger argument ?

 

https://empoweredsustenance.com/avoid-soy-milk/
https://chriskresser.com/red-meat-it-does-a-body-good/
https://paleoleap.com/what-is-wrong-with-grains/
https://empoweredsustenance.com/canola-oil-excuses/
http://www.thesweetbeet.com/whole-grains/
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/03/06/saturated-fat-diet-heart-disease.aspx
https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/9-reasons-why-your-doctor-is-wrong-about-fat

Useful information, science, no bull

This is about taurine: http://main.poliquingroup.com/articlesmultimedia/articles/article/782/ten_benefits_of_taurine.aspx
A non essential amino acid, that is important for optimal health, found in meat. Oh & energy drinks, but energy drinks aren't healthy

 

I've been a vegan for 3 weeks now. I feel totally great.

 

Don't really want to engage in conversation with Wolves anymore, personal attacks and "the government" is enough for me.
We could play this game all day long, I have sources that proof the exact opposite of what he is saying, and he has others that do the same with mine.

Also, I think it is absolutely hilarious to think that a "Top 10 Reasons to .... " site is "science, no bull".

People want to read about vegans that it is unhealthy, sells better, sometimes the truth does not matter.






But you are right, this argument is just a farce.

Then let us talk about the obvious argument. The moral.

You gave two reasons for justifying murder of an animal.

Worst argument first: It is delicious. A lot of things are delicious, but is taste really a good reason to be responsible for a holocaust ?

The interesting argument. It is natural for us to eat meat.
Our teeth closely resemble those of frugivores, our teeth are designed to bite into fruits, we can't easily bite into the neck of an animal and kill it, like every other predator would do.
Our jaw grinds from left to right while whe chew, carnivores on the other hand can only close their mouth up and down, no left or right movement is possible (sorry for bad english right here, not native).
Our digestive tracts are closer to these of herbivores. (For omnivores it's free times the body length, for herbivores it's 8 times the body length).
Cholesterol is the number 1 reason for the number 1 killer, cardiovascular disease. Carnivores can not get cardiovascular disease.

Instinct also does not work. Put any hungry child in front of a table with A) a pig or B) salad + an apple.
What would they do ?
Because humans are carnivores, and since kids just know it's natural, even though they go to petting zoos, and draw pictures of animals, they know what is best for them. They kill the pig with a single stab and devour it right then and there, with hair and everything. Hey, it's natural.

And that is just the surface. Just because we are able to do something, doesn't mean that we are meant and built to do something.


So... Why is it morally justifyable to cause the suffering and death of animals, even if we could choose not to and meatless diets are sustainable and appropiate for everybody in every age group, even in pregnancy (Trigger Warning: Government) (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19562864).

Let's just do it the old-fashioned way.

• Name a trait present in animals, which if present in humans, would justify the treatment proposed by omnivores if applied to a human.

 

What you said is similar to what I read in The Kind Diet of Alicia Silverstone.
To support your opinion, I post this one

 

If that's true, then that's a pretty solid reason for BOTH of you to recognize that neither way is "the right way" and that people should be able to eat however they want without being told they're "wrong." (With the exception, of course, of people eating tons of junk or something... I'm just talking about a healthy vegan diet versus a healthy non-vegan diet.)

My whole family is vegan now, except for me and my husband. They don't judge me at all, and they don't try to push their beliefs on me. We are all going on vacation together soon and just got together to plan meals yesterday. We made a list of all the things we are having, and I made a list of all the meat I need to bring if I don't want to eat their vegan substitutes. That's the kind of vegan person I can stand being around.

 

That is great, enjoy your vacation.

 

That seems like the ideal way to go about stuff. If this debate has been going on for so many years, thee's a reason behind. The proportion at which both sides are right is rather high and thus, you can't really castigate or align yourself with any side so just stick with your beliefs and stop imposing them on others. That's the only way you'll be at peace.

 

Agreed completely. I have no issue with vegan people telling me how being vegan has helped them, because from their perspective, that's a kind thing to do. If I found something that changed my life for the better, I would want to share it with my friends and family. But acting like your way is the "right" way, especially while openly admitting that both sides have evidence that is completely contradictory, is pretty arrogant, to me.

 

Do what feels right to you. No one should force anyone.

 

I'm discussing this post because I want to show my opinion, I don't want to prove myself right or to win over you.

 

Anyone seen "What the Health"?

 

I've seen it. Really good.

 

It's very thought-provoking. I was already experimenting with veganism but, then I seen "What The Health", and I made my decision. But, being a vegan isn't enough. You also have to avoid starch.