Veganism or omnivore?

Discussion in 'Self Improvement' started by LonerWolf, Jan 14, 2019.

  1. Coolyorky

    Coolyorky Fapstronaut

    Haha they’re good if she’s a decent bird......., but if she’s a scruffy cow.....taste like a 9 volt battery brah
  2. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    We actually do have studies...
    "Conclusions and Relevance
    Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality. Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance."

    Carnivore diet is missing vitamins/phytonutrients/fiber/antioxidants. Fat and cholesterol is why heart disease is the number one killer in the world. Cholesterol is not vital in the diet, your own body makes what you need, you don't need to eat it. Some fats are essential, but can be found in plants and animals are not necessary for it.
    It is well known fact and I have studied it. You can learn more too:
    "A few places in the world are called “Blue Zones.” The term refers to geographic areas in which people have low rates of chronic disease and live longer than anywhere else."
    "“Blue Zone” is a non-scientific term given to geographic regions that are home to some of the world’s oldest people.

    It was first used by the author Dan Buettner, who was studying areas of the world in which people live exceptionally long lives.

    They are called Blue Zones because when Buettner and his colleagues were searching for these areas, they drew blue circles around them on a map."
    "People Who Live in Blue Zones Eat a Diet Full of Whole Plant Foods"
    Why don't you look into it and tell me what you think, because they are on a plant-based diet and they do have the longest life spans.
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  3. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    Lol what's killing people is sugar in all its forms and refined foods, meat and animal fat is essential sorry.
  4. Alright. Expect a response soon.
  5. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    I agree with you refined foods/sugars are bad, but meat and animal food are not "essential" or else vegans wouldn't be alive. There is nothing essential made in meat or fat that is not found in plant foods.
    Cool, thanks for the civil conversation.
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  6. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    We wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for animals. Do you think cavemen were vegans? lmao.. fruits were scarce and seasonal, vegetables, why can't you eat them raw? Because they are poisonous, they may habe minimal nutrients but they are not necessary much less essential. Now meat, you can eat it raw without problems, liver, organs, brain. All those things are full of nutrients, protein and fat. Fat works in your body as an organ, tell me what would happen to a body with 0% fat? Death.
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  7. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    You make a logical argument, but you need to realize, we are no longer cavemen. There is some controversy about what our ancestors ate, some say it was mostly foliage and others argue it was mostly animals. It doesn't really matter because we are no longer cavement. Yes, I'm sure they had to hunt to survive, but we no longer have to. We no longer eat for survival and food is pretty abundant (at least in civilized society). Actually veges are jam packed with nutrients, where do you think your meat got all its protein? Cows eat grass and get all their protein/calcium/iron/nutrients from there. The argument is, we don't need animal flesh to survive, and we actually thrive even more when we avoid those things. Animal flesh causes inflammation and it's one of the causes of all the diseases we are seeing. You can get fat from plants as well, and they are much healthier too, things like nuts/avocados. Meat has trans fat in it and cholesterol, not good for us. You want to know what causes death? Here is the top results from the CDC,
    "Deaths: Leading Causes for 2016[PDF – 2 MB]Data are for the U.S.
    Number of deaths for leading causes of death
    Heart disease: 635,260
    Cancer: 598,038
    Accidents (unintentional injuries): 161,374
    Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 154,596
    Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 142,142
    Alzheimer’s disease: 116,103
    Diabetes: 80,058
    Influenza and pneumonia: 51,537
    Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,046
    Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,965"

    You see how heart disease is #1, Cancer is #2, Stroke is #3, Diabetes #5, Kidney diseases #7? All of these are caused by chronic inflammation and the biggest cause for that is the Standard American Diet (SAD), which has excess animal fat/protein/cholesterol/processed foods.

    Here is more proof for you, I'll bold the important parts... Also, no other diet has been shown to reverse heart disease FYI.
    "Diets with customary levels of fat from plant origin may reverse coronary artery disease.
    Sanchez A1, Mejia A2, Sanchez J3, Runte E4, Brown-Fraser S2, Bivens RL5.
    Author information
    The primary cause of death worldwide is heart disease and the most common type of heart disease is coronary artery disease. While coronary artery disease is treated with medications, it responds to lifestyle interventions. A low-fat plant-based diet was designed for reversing coronary artery disease and it is effective in reversing the disease. It has not been tested, however, as far as we know, whether diets with customary levels of fat can also reverse coronary artery disease. Nevertheless, evidence is accumulating to show that atherosclerosis and coronary artery disease are reversed with diets containing customary levels of fat. It has been known that fats of plant origin decrease the risk factors of cardiovascular disease. It is also known that vegans who consume diets with customary levels of fat have the lowest risk of cardiovascular disease. But recent and more specific data show that atherosclerosis was decreased when nuts that are rich in fat were added to a Mediterranean diet while atherosclerosis was increased in the controls. Also, two clinical cases show that coronary artery disease was reversed by low-fat plant-based diets that were supplemented with fat-rich foods of plant origin. These data, then, provide evidence that coronary artery disease may be reversed with a diet containing customary levels of fat from plant sources. We hypothesize that coronary artery disease may be reversed by diets with customary levels of fat of plant origin that are low in saturated fat content. This hypothesis needs to be tested by comparing a traditional low-fat plant-based diet with a plant-based diet containing customary levels of fat of plant origin in their effectiveness to reverse coronary artery disease."
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  8. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    We certainly are not cavemen anymore, but saying that veggies and fruit are available anywhere and in large quantities now does not mean our body is prepared for them. That's like saying, candies are available now, let's eat candies and chocolates everyday. For thousands and thousands of years our major source of food was animals. We evolve to eat that, our system is not done to live on bananas and carrots. And yes, animals like cows get their nutrients from let's say grass, because their system is prepared for it. Their guts are made to properly break down all those leaves. Grass fed meat is actually the best for human consumption, but that doesn't mean that eating grass is healthy or optimal for our diet.

    Regarding the list of diseases. Cancer, diabetes, heart problems, alzheimer. Meat and fat has nothing to do, actually lack of fat and cholesterol is against proper brain function, alzheimer is due to it. Diabetes and cancer exist thanks to sugar, why do aboriginal tribes who consume meat only have no illnesses? Their diet is based on meat, organs, fat. No carbs and minimal vegetables and fruits. Regarding clogged arteries, yes its cholesterol on your arteries, but is it the villian? Not really, cholesterol is sent there as bandaids, to repair the damages and cracks made by lacking nutrients. Cholesterol forming crusts on the arteries is just the middleman trying to repair the damage. Damages that wouldn't be there with a proper diet.

    Regarding avocados and nuts, they indeed have good oils, but minimal quantities. All you need to see for proof is those skeletal vegans with rotten teeth who have been eating only veggies and fruits for years. The first months of veganism, even a couple of years might feel glorious.. but try 5, 10 years. And tell me what are your illnesses.

    Ps. In paper, those leafs and veggies might have a variety of nutrients, but having them is one thing, and absorving them is another. Our systems do not absorb everything from a vegan diet. And regarding fruits, it's mainly fructose with a little bit of vitamins. Mostly because fruits have been modified by men, today fruits were not yesterday fruits. If you have a fruit shake as a breakfast, with 5 bananas and oatmeal, you are on your way to diabetes
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  9. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    Thank you!
  10. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    Except our major source of food was plants and when they were lucky then animals. Our bodies are made to eat plants, our digestive systems are closest to the ape, which is a fruigivore.

    Actually all the diseases are seen less in vegans and more in meat eaters. Yes we agree processed sugars are bad, but fats are bad too, they cause fat to go into muscle cells and block insulin receptors being activated by insulin (insulin resistance) and therefore diabetes. It causes increased IGF1 and this also causes increased cancers. Aboriginal tribes ate plants as well, plus we don't even know how their longevity was. Sure someone younger will seem more healthy, but if you don't make it into old age and healthy, then you can't really come to a conclusion.
    Inflammation caused by oxidized cholesterol damages the arteries, oxidized cholesterol is caused by animal meats. You haven't really provided any proof of your statements. There is also no civilization that is as healthy as the Blue Zones, which are on a plant-based diet.
    There are many more healthy vegans and people on plant-based diets than there are unhealthy ones, where the opposite is true of meat eaters. Most of the heart disease/cancers/diabetes/chronic diseases are seen in meat eaters and less in plant eaters. Again, see the Adventists in Loma Linda, who are lifelong vegans and have one of the highest longevity and lowest rates of cancer/heart disease. Not sure where you get your facts. Also rotten teeth occur less on a whole food plant-based diet btw. Have you ever searched for "vegan bodybuilder" on Google? Athletes are thriving on this diet.
    If all you are eating is plenty of plants, then you will be getting plenty of nutrients, even if not all of them absorbed. Does that make sense? Fruits are healthy as well and encouraged in diabetic diets, in fact a macrobiotic diet beat out the recommended diabetes association diet by a significant amount. Processed sugars are bad, but whole foods such as whole fruits are good because the fiber prevents sugar spikes and they have good vitamins and antioxidants.

    At the end of the day, there is no civilization on record that can outperform the longevity and health of the Blue Zones, and these places are all on plant-based diets. So you can come up with whatever reasons you want, but the end results speak for themselves. There is no long-term data on meat-based diets being beneficial whereas the opposite is true of plant-based diets. And, to top it off, a plant-based diet is good for the environment and is more sustainable, and it is kinder towards our animal friends (maybe you have a dog or cat and can understand that concept as well). Hitting 3 birds with 1 stone, there is no question that a plant-based diet is king.
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  11. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    I'll eat my 'friends' you eat your carrots. Congrats on the 85 days.
  12. Red Eagle

    Red Eagle Fapstronaut

    And how do you plan to conduct a multi varied analysis?`That costs money and time, a lot of time. That's why I reference scientific studies. The average person can only produce anecdotal evidence which is almost useless.

    Of course they can be wrong. There is a lot of money in science skewing the scientific data. But the money is certainly on the side of big corporations and the meat industry is one of them. Also, there is a big difference between authority and science. Appeal to authority means appealing to something because any person of authority said so, like a politician, a teacher, ones father etc. Scientific measurement is the best method we have even though the data can be skewed, that's why scientific research is peer reviewed and multiple studies have to come to the same conclusion to produce a scientific fact.

    Religious people don't use objective measurement. They use subjective measurement to produce "objective" facts. The only way to objectively measure something is going all the way down to physics.

    Now you've disqualified yourself from the discussion. If you can't come up with better data, or anything that proves your point right or my point wrong, then you've lost. You don't believe in objective truth like I've said before, because objective truth doesn't go along with your world view. Scientists can back up what they believe by demonstrating it with a scientific model. Religious people can't, hence they are untrustworthy. If you can't come up with either scientific data of your own that disproves my point or you have a better way of aquiring data, then again, you've lost.

    No, those are peer reviewed scientif papers, if you had any courage to look at them and read them. They do not come from websites endorsing veganism but are scientific papers. I could explain to you why meat is unhealthy and I did, but that is not nearly as effective as linking you multiple studies that all come to the same conclusion. But again, you don't believe in objective measurement or objective truth. You only believe your own point of view and no matter how well I will explain something or how much data I will send you refuting your point, you will keep living in your delusion. That is what true religious believe is. Send me prove of your claims and we can debate it, but unfortunately you don't have any.

    Scientific research is. Here is a tip: You need to click on it. Oh! and reading is also a good advice.

    Then how do I live, am healthy, have muscle and feel well when I don't eat animals? Just because there is some fiber, doesn't mean we cannot get enough nutrition from it. We also cook our food which makes absorbing the nutrients a lot easier for our body. That's why our intestines are so small compared to apes. Again, do you have any proof beyond explaing it yourself, proving that vegan diets cause malnutrition?

    To start, do you have any proof for your claims beyond your own experience?

    The Inuit are a short lived population with high rates of atherosclerosis. Even before the industrial revolution they had severe heart disease. They just don't experience heart attacks frequently due to their high consumption of Omega 3 fatty acids which are protective against heart disease. But atherosclerosis runs rampant among them.

    Also the Inuit cannot be used as an example for the whole human population since they have already genetically adapted to their surrounding and their diet. Humans require fiber for proper digestion and health. They also make people feel full so they stop eating and stop getting fat.

    Now, you're just gonna ignore any evidence, but I'm gonna link it anyway. You know you're still standing at zero with your claims?

    Animals feel pain as proven by their reactions to actions that would cause us pain. They avoid it and run away from danger which could only happen if they have a negative reaction to it. Pain doesn't feel good --> Causing unnecessary pain in anyone, be it animal or human is cruel and immoral. Most people are not aware of the damage they are causing because they are living in a bubble. But I've educated you and if you still choose to continue in this immoral behaviour you're clearly an immoral person.

    We can get fat from plants. The fat from plants is superior since it is mainly unsaturated, so well will get more Omega 6 and especially Omega 3 which are great for heart health. Saturated fat is the main cause for the development for atherosclerosis.

    Pls show me evidence that the heart, the kidneys and the intestines use fat as their primary energy source. From what I've learned myself and from biology class, the body uses glucose in an optimal state for almost any process in the body. Also the brain cannot burn fat since fat cannot pass the blood brain barrier. Sugar is our most important energy source. Every credible biologists will confirm this.

    Any prove beyond anecdotes pls. I'd rather trust doctors than guys like you.

    Wrong, The Human gut is about 10 to 12 times the length of our torso. Carnivore have a gut length about 3 to 6 times the length of their torso. Omnivores and Herbivores have longer guts which makes human qualify as both. Also the pH values of our gut acid is 5 which is slightly acidic. Carnivores gut acid is less than 1 which is highly acidic so they can properly break down meat. Why do you think we have to cook meat thoroughly?

    No we don't. We cook our food which makes these things unnecessary. Cooking breaks the plant matter down already so we can digest it better and absorb the nutrients more efficiently.

    I've disproven this nonsense in my last post.

    A broken down amino acid is the same no matter if it is from an animal or not. The comparison with the bacteria-infested water doesn't even apply since bacteria infested water contains something regular water doesn't. Protein is protein. It contains amino acids. The difference is only the structure. But our body needs single amino acids and doesn't absorb the whole structure into the blood stream.

    I'm talking to a meat eater, thus every argument you make has no weight. That is the same argument.

    Also not everybody else says so. The scientific community says so. The majority still believe meat is healthy and that eating it is moral. But I've clearly disproven both. My stance doesn't matter, my arguments do. The same goes for you. You just can't defend your arguments properly which is why you want to discredit me because I'm a Vegan. Great tactic. It's not gonna work.

    Also I've mentioned gloconeogenesis in my first post. I just didn't use the scientific term. That's all.

    I agree, I've won. I could defend my position and provide peer reviewed evidence where as you could, at best, only provide anecdots.

    There is a whole book published about them. It's called "The Blue Zones"

    All the people living in the Blue Zones had several factors in common, one was diet which was either vegetarian/vegan or heavily plant based. Those include for example: The Okinawa Japanese, The Italians on Sardinia and the Seven Day Adventists which have been thoroughly studied and provide clear evidence for the superiority of plant based/vegan diets. Some of the links I posted in my previous post are about the studies done on them.

    It's true. Ketogenic low carbers usually have high blood sugar. The main hypothesis on how this could happen is Intra Mayo Cellular Lipids. Check out Dr. Neal Barnard on Youtube. He has some great lectures explaining how diabetes/insulin resistence work

    They are worse because of the lack of fiber. The thing you're so afraid of. Fiber slows down the absorption of sugar which prevents blood sugar spikes.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
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  13. Red Eagle

    Red Eagle Fapstronaut

    Wrong. Sugar is terrible but Meat is in no way essential for human health. It's detrimental to health. Read the studies I've posted.
  14. Hank Pym

    Hank Pym Fapstronaut

    Fishiterian is the best
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  15. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

    Lmao, ok buddy. Guess I'll die
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  16. KarmaWeaver

    KarmaWeaver Fapstronaut

    And it's not just meat, the meat we eat comes with a shitload of hormones and remnants of agrotoxics from the GMOs these animals are fed with.

    Cutting or reducing meat from our diet is just another habit that we have to acquire, just like we are trying to do with PMO. But, of course, it's easy to deny than to change ourselves.

    Like it or not, eating meat is the most unsustainable habit that a human being can have these days. The agrobusiness industry is the main cause of global warming, water depletion, species extinction, deforestation and ocean dead zones.
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  17. KarmaWeaver

    KarmaWeaver Fapstronaut

    Unless, of course, you have a sustainable source. Like an organic farm, a local producer, etc. Agroecology is the key!
  18. ClaritySeeker

    ClaritySeeker Fapstronaut

    Thank you. If you would like to see a non-nasty documentary about this meat/veggies stuff I would highly recommend "Forks Over Knives" on Netflix. It's not super biased and there are 2 scientists that grew up on dairy farms. It's pretty interesting.

    @Red Eagle and @OakenAxe seems like we've all been influenced by the same people. It's nice to see that this movement is growing. Hopefully we don't have to go through the same timeline as the tobacco fiasco and how they created confusion on the topic. Hopefully we can beat the system and go against the beef and dairy industry and their megabillions. Keep up the great work guys :D I didn't expect there to be so many others like me.
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  19. LEPAGE

    LEPAGE Fapstronaut

    We'd still be up in the trees, picking bugs off each other's asses if it wasn't for eating meat. We'll be getting drunk on the moon while the herbivores are still standing around eating the same grass they shit and piss in all day.
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  20. Mr Sitter

    Mr Sitter Fapstronaut

    I eat meat, and in my faith it is known as the most blessed of foods. If I don't eat meat during lunch or dinner, I feel like I've only eaten a snack. But, I think the way we eat meat has changed a lot since the industrial revolution and as a result of globalization.

    My philosophy now is to buy good quality meat, even if it is a bit more expensive than the cheap, plastic-riddled barely-meat products that are stocked in many supermarket shelves. Good quality meat + eating in moderation is the way to go. Actually, this applies to any kind of food, not just meat. Have you noticed how, when you eat too much greens, it comes out the other end without getting properly digested?

    An argument that is often raised by vegans/vegetarians is that other primates survive solely on a diet of leaves and fruit. But one of the biggest difference between them and us is that their digestive tracts are a lot longer and can extract a lot more nutrients from the plants that they eat. For humans, our shorter digestive tracts mean we are unable to extract enough nutrients during the shorter time our food spends in there, hence we need more calorie dense foods to keep us ticking.
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